High Ranking

[MJS]

In your opinion, what do you feel makes someone worthy of a high dan grade? For the sake of discussion, we'll use 7th or 8th degree as a reference point. Are there certain qualities that you look for or that you feel they should have?

I'll note that this is a general question. I'm not looking to target a specific art, but just to discuss the issue of rank.

 

[Supra Vijai]

We only have 5 Dans in our organisation and I'm not even at 1st yet so I may not be the best person to answer about anything higher but IMO they would need to know the art back to front and actually live it rather than just go through the motions of teaching the movements. In other words they need to embody the philosophy of their particular art and integrate it as a way of life. That doesn't mean all high level instructors should look or act like monks who hang out in secret caves practicing 24/7 but it should be a noticeable quality.

In short: attitude, how they handle themselves, what they say and do (is it congruent?) etc

 

[K-man]

In your opinion, what do you feel makes someone worthy of a high dan grade? For the sake of discussion, we'll use 7th or 8th degree as a reference point. Are there certain qualities that you look for or that you feel they should have?

I'll note that this is a general question. I'm not looking to target a specific art, but just to discuss the issue of rank.

In the first instance it is not all that often that most people get the opportunity to train with 7th or 8th dans, even less to train with them on a regular basis.
I consider myself fortunate to have four friends at that level whom I train with regularly.
What they have to make them worthy of that rank is complex but includes:

They have all trained steadily for 40+ years.
They are humble in the presence of lower ranks.
They know their art.
They have great communication skills.
They are prepared to pass on their knowledge to others.
They are never so set in their ways that they are not prepared to change if change is required.

I'm sure they have other attributes as well but this could start the discussion.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

To use my instructor (7th dan) as an example - he has been training continuosly for 40 years, he undrrstands and can teach all elements of the art, he is still trying to learn new things everyday, he is modest and approachable, he can demonstrate techniques in such a way that even though he may getting older he looks like he could really kick some ***, stays in very good physical shape, still has a passion for the art, has a history of producing excellent martial artists and is just as forthcoming when dealing with white belts as he is with black belts.

 

[seasoned]

An old person, that still moves like a younger one. A life of dedication. A love for basics, but with a very deep understanding of there value, within their art. Understanding, compassion, desire, and loyalty, toward their old and ever changing art, and understands that it is this, that makes it an art. Ownership of their art, and of their own body, with the ability to adapt to their ever changing physical attributes. Able to answer any and all questions pertaining to their art, with the wisdom that only time, practice, and dedication can produce. A person that still sees the white belt in himself, and the potential black belt within the student. This old person understands the ever ensuing limitations that come with old age, and searches the kata for the answers. If you happen to come upon one of these above people I describe, pay them respect, because they will know, that respect bestows respect. :asian:

 

[Cirdan]

A teacher of other righ ranks, who in turn are teachers of teachers.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I agree with the other comments about continuous time in the style. In my style, a high-dan rank would be commensurate with many decades of diligent work. A 7th dan who isn't 50+ years old = not possible.

I say this knowing that as a nearly 50 year-old san-kyu, I'll never see more than perhaps ni-dan or san-dan in my lifetime; I simply haven't enough time left to me. And that's fine. I have seen the level of mastery required of a true hachi-dan; it's awesome compared to even the best san-dan or even go-dan I've ever seen. Youth and speed can't compensate for that level of mastery, which in my humble opinion can only be achieved by decades of diligent training and insight into the art, combined with a true natural ability.

Other styles have high-dan instructors who style themselves 'Master' or even 'Grandmaster' at a young age. I can't comment; how they do it is how they do it. But it would not possible in Isshin-Ryu that I'm aware of.

 

[MJS]

IMO, and this'll probably vary from art to art, but I feel that once you reach 5th, the 'tests' are more of what you do or give back, so to speak.

Interestingly enough, Bill just hit on something that I myself, have always felt was key in determining rank, that being age. When I picture someone who's wearing a 7th or 8th dan, I see someone just as he described...someone 50+, probably late 50s.

Some other things to consider:

Prove yourself: I'm not necessarily talking about entering a competition (although thats an option if one wants to) but simply having been on the floor, fighting/sparring. Being capable of talking the talk and walking the walk.

Know the art inside and out. This should range from history, tech. application, etc.

Have a good number of students that you're promoted to black, and possibly those students having promoted others as well.

 

[jthomas1600]

I'm a little new to this. So a question. How much real skill difference is there between a 3rd dan and a 7th dan? Would it be fair to say that at least to an extant high dan rankings are sort of like life time achievement awards? Higher dan rankings have more to do with spirit and knowledge and less to do with physical skills?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In your opinion, what do you feel makes someone worthy of a high dan grade? For the sake of discussion, we'll use 7th or 8th degree as a reference point. Are there certain qualities that you look for or that you feel they should have?

Differs from organization to organization and from art to art, but here is my very general list.

1. One either tested for it or received it from a legitimate ranking body of which they are a part of.
2. That they have been training in the art in question for a very long period of time, generally at least 25 to 30 years.

That pretty much is it, and I listed these because they are fairly normative across styles that use the kyu/dan system.

Even at that, I consider rank much over fifth to be less about technical skill and more about promotion or enrichment of the art. Often, the promotion to seventh or eighth dan is, as I understand, tied into things that require one to either own a school or to be in an exceptional position to promote the arts in some other way. In another discussion, it was mentioned that Ron Samaranch (sp?) was awareded an honorary tenth dan for getting the IOC to make taekwondo a medal sport in the olympics. He was not a practitioner or a school owner, but promoted the art in a way that only he was able to do.

Really, all rank is honorary in some way, particlularly after a certain point in one's life where the physical capacity is diminished enough to affect one's physical skills.

About the only thing that I am very firmly against with regards to rank is self promotion. Either seeking out an easy eighth by shopping papermills or shopping organizations with checkbook in hand or by simply creating one's own organization and pronouncing one's self as eighth dan. Some self promoters will offer what seem like compelling reasons for their self promotion, and maybe they reallyl mean what they say. But making yourself an eighth dan and expecting others to take you seriously is an unproductive prospect at best.

Daniel

 

[KELLYG]

jthomas1600
"How much real skill difference is there between a 3rd dan and a 7th dan?"
about 20 to 30 years of honing your craft.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm a little new to this. So a question. How much real skill difference is there between a 3rd dan and a 7th dan? Would it be fair to say that at least to an extant high dan rankings are sort of like life time achievement awards? Higher dan rankings have more to do with spirit and knowledge and less to do with physical skills?

I think both are true. Spirit, knowledge, experience; but also skill. A 7th dan in my style would or should be able to wipe the floor with 5th dans all day long. Individuals vary, so I'm sure it could happen that a talented 5th dan and a 7th dan who had not worked diligently might be more evenly matched, but to my eyes, each dan grade is like an order of magnitude better. Once you get past 3rd dan, people become deadly, very deadly. Past 5th dan and they do things that look impossible. Past 7th and it's like they can't be stopped by anyone.

Seriously, I can picture myself, a lowly brown belt, able to take on a shodan and perhaps give him something to think about. Our dojo has two 5th dans who would not even break a sweat hurting me badly, and our main instructor, an 8th dan, could beat them both at the same time and then tear me into small enough pieces to mail via envelope.

There just isn't any comparison, it's like their game is at a whole 'nother level.

Just my experience, of course.

 

[jks9199]

I'm a little new to this. So a question. How much real skill difference is there between a 3rd dan and a 7th dan? Would it be fair to say that at least to an extant high dan rankings are sort of like life time achievement awards? Higher dan rankings have more to do with spirit and knowledge and less to do with physical skills?

It depends a lot on the system.

Some have ongoing training, testing, or performance standards, adding new material much of the way through or looking for categorized advancement in skills and knowledge.

Many have these through about 5th dan or degree or whatever. Often ranks above 5th are recognition of service to the organization and art.

Realistically, in most cases, there's not much skill difference between something like 3rd or 4th degree and 8th or 9th. But there can and should be major differences in understanding, and the more highly ranked people should often be "go to" people for the art and association. The people who put their time and resources into advancing the goals of the association.

 

[Fuzzy Foot]

Here is my take and it's JMO.There is no denying biology, our physical and mental ability/capacity will diminish over time. We become weaker, less flexible, and more easily injured with longer recovery time when you are injured as we age. That said there have been sports studies that show it is possible to keep as much as 80% of our strength and flexibility of our 20's into our 60's with exercise. This is why 7th/8th dans move like they are much younger. They must be promoters of their art. They continue to train, study, and still have passion for what they do even after these many years.Their technique is excellent, even though age may be showing. Beyond the mechanics of technique they are able to direct their physical and mental energy into what they do increasing effectiveness into what would seem to be out-of-proportion to what is visible. They are teaching regularly at some level even though they may or may not own a school, and MA is not just a few hours per week hobby. They have 30+ years in the art and are about 50 yrs old or more, 30 yr olds (or 20 yr olds) need not apply thank you. Their actions speak for themselves, their words reflect their actions and serve as an inspiration to others to achieve similar for themselves. They do not have to seek recognition or attention or engage in shameless self-promotion ( besides the above,this is where many fail the grade) because their peers and community already recognize them for the accomplished individuals/teachers that they are. No they are not super men/women, just extraordinarily accomplished individuals of character and integrity. They are teachers of teachers. There's more, but that about covers it for now.

 

[Kacey]

There are a lot of good answers out there already - so hopefully I'm not repeating too much. The people who deserve the highest ranks - as stated, 7th and up - are those who have gone beyond hobby and avocation and made some meaningful contribution to the art they are practicing. It could be informational, philosophical, physical, etc. - but in some meaningful fashion, the art needs to be better because of the person's contribution.

 

[Aiki Lee]

IMO a 7th dan or higher should:
-move effortlessly during techniques
-have extensive knowledge of their arts including buyt not limited to history and philosophy
-provide active leadership in their organization
-recognize that they do not know everything

I feel there should be a vast difference in skill between a 7th or higher than say a 3rd dan.

I agree that 5th is when one can probably be considered master level generally speaking, but 7th and above shoudl still have specific things to work on to continue improvement.

 

[MJS]

Differs from organization to organization and from art to art, but here is my very general list.

1. One either tested for it or received it from a legitimate ranking body of which they are a part of.
2. That they have been training in the art in question for a very long period of time, generally at least 25 to 30 years.

That pretty much is it, and I listed these because they are fairly normative across styles that use the kyu/dan system.

Even at that, I consider rank much over fifth to be less about technical skill and more about promotion or enrichment of the art. Often, the promotion to seventh or eighth dan is, as I understand, tied into things that require one to either own a school or to be in an exceptional position to promote the arts in some other way. In another discussion, it was mentioned that Ron Samaranch (sp?) was awareded an honorary tenth dan for getting the IOC to make taekwondo a medal sport in the olympics. He was not a practitioner or a school owner, but promoted the art in a way that only he was able to do.

Really, all rank is honorary in some way, particlularly after a certain point in one's life where the physical capacity is diminished enough to affect one's physical skills.

About the only thing that I am very firmly against with regards to rank is self promotion. Either seeking out an easy eighth by shopping papermills or shopping organizations with checkbook in hand or by simply creating one's own organization and pronouncing one's self as eighth dan. Some self promoters will offer what seem like compelling reasons for their self promotion, and maybe they reallyl mean what they say. But making yourself an eighth dan and expecting others to take you seriously is an unproductive prospect at best.

Daniel

Hey Dan,

Nice post. 2 questions for you. This is in response to what you said above.

1) So in other words, if the student going for that rank, doesnt have a teacher that he can go to, then the student 'tests' in front of a panel of his own high ranking students, even if those students are not at the high rank themselves? Ex: Teacher is testing for 8th, doesnt have anyone to go to. His senior students, consisting of people ranking in the 5th, 6th area, test him.

2) Do you feel that age should come into play here? Ex: Student started training when he was 10. 30yrs would make him 40. Is 40 an ok age for a 7th or 8th?

 

[MJS]

I'm a little new to this. So a question. How much real skill difference is there between a 3rd dan and a 7th dan? Would it be fair to say that at least to an extant high dan rankings are sort of like life time achievement awards? Higher dan rankings have more to do with spirit and knowledge and less to do with physical skills?

One would think that the higher rank would have:

a much deeper understanding of the art, including but not limited to all of the material, history, etc.

much more effective in application of said material.

overall a higher skill level.

These are just a few things that came to mind. Of course, the above may not necessarily be true.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I think both are true. Spirit, knowledge, experience; but also skill. A 7th dan in my style would or should be able to wipe the floor with 5th dans all day long. Individuals vary, so I'm sure it could happen that a talented 5th dan and a 7th dan who had not worked diligently might be more evenly matched, but to my eyes, each dan grade is like an order of magnitude better. Once you get past 3rd dan, people become deadly, very deadly. Past 5th dan and they do things that look impossible. Past 7th and it's like they can't be stopped by anyone.

It depends on the art of course, but for Genbukan, the above would be a fair assumption.
I've been lucky enough to be uke for my 5th dan head sensei, as well as a first dan practicioner. The difference is staggering. When being thrown, or locked, or whatever by the 5th dan sensei, he was in total control every single second. Not because he was stronger than the 1st dan, but because he knew exactly what he was doing.
My own sensei has been the uke for a 7th dan (older guy) and says the experience was amazing and eye opening.

So Bills summary seems accurate to me.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hey Dan,

Nice post. 2 questions for you. This is in response to what you said above.

1) So in other words, if the student going for that rank, doesnt have a teacher that he can go to, then the student 'tests' in front of a panel of his own high ranking students, even if those students are not at the high rank themselves? Ex: Teacher is testing for 8th, doesnt have anyone to go to. His senior students, consisting of people ranking in the 5th, 6th area, test him.

This question seems to assume that the individual in question is not affiliated with any organization within the art in question, as organizational affiliation generally prevents such a scenario by its nature.

I have never heard of a panel of one's own students ranking their senior. If you run an independent school and are the head of it, I suppose that you can do whatever you want, though if people ask you who promoted you to your current rank and you tell them that your students did, be prepared for some hard questions. I think that by that point, the individual would likely have made enough connections over the years that he or she would know someone in the same art who would be willing to evaluate them and test them.

Of course, if you are independent and your students are happy with your classes and you are not taking classes from a higher ranking instructor yourself, why seek the rank?

2) Do you feel that age should come into play here? Ex: Student started training when he was 10. 30yrs would make him 40. Is 40 an ok age for a 7th or 8th?

Depends entirely upon the organization. Some organizations have minimum age requirements for certain dan grades. Others do not. Organizational stipulations aside, no, I don't think that it matters. A lot depends, however, on what your rank is representative of.

Usually, grades above fifth become increasingly about what one has put back into the art, rather than what one has gotten out of it. Time in grade is representative of 'years of service' at that point, but is not generally the only factor. Some orgs also have a physical test.

So long as requirements and promotions are consistent within an organization or independent school, the rest is relatively unimportant. My grade in kumdo through an independent organization is meaningless in the AUSKF, regardless of my age or years of service. And a hachidan in the AUSKF is meaningless if he or she goes into a Kukki taekwondo school. A paldan in Kukki taekwondo carries no weight at a Gracie Jiujitsu school. And so on.

But within the schools of the organzition that issued my kumdo rank, http://www.koreankumdofederation.com/, my grade is recognized. Partly because of my time in grade. Partly because I know the hyung, hanbon kyorugi, and overall curriculum associated with the organiztion. Partly because I have taken all of the required tests for my current grade and have passed them. I'm not at such a lofty grade that my age of 43 would be an issue, but within our org, there are no ages associated with any of the grades, and GM Kim does not look particularly elderly. I have an instructor's certificate that is only of value with my parent org. I have it because I took the instructor's course and passed the test.

Rank is only meaningful within a given organization or school. Each organiztion or school attaches their own meaning to it. For some, rank represents skill. For others time in service. For others, responsibility. For others administrative roles. And any combination of those is used in any number of organiztions or schools.

Outside of that organization or school, one should not expect their rank to be recognized. If another school or organization is willing to recognize it, I'd consider it a bonus.

The only real issue with rank comes up when it is misused. The awarding of rank in order to justify another fee is a misuse. Rapid promoting of students to increase one's black belt count is a misuse. Shopping orgs for an easy 8th is a misuse. Falsification of credentials in order to obtain rank is a misuse. The common denomenator of these misuses is the use of rank to make money, either by making money from the awarding of rank or by unscrupulous attaining of rank in order to bolster one's portfolio so as to make money. Ego plays into it as well, but for the most part, I see greed as the driving factor.

Daniel