high dans

[TLH3rdDan]

ok ive been thinking about this for a while... so i thought i would ask this on here to see what kind of answers it got...

Do we really need to have so many different dan levels?

after a certain point most often 4th or 5th dan you are basically promoted for time in grade rather than mastery of new technique... so do the arts really need to have 10 different dan levels or in the case of ninjutsu do they really need 15 dan levels? I for one think we dont... the only real reason i can see for so many different levels is simply to identify the "masters" to the uninformed everyday person who has never trained or has simply just begun training... wouldnt it be nice to go back to when it was simply a black belt and not 1st thru 10th dan black belt?

 

[JTA]

I think it's more of an ego thing than anything else. People like to see themselves progress.

A lot of schools have orange, blue, green, red, purple, etc. IMO there's no need for so many belts, but a lot of people would get discouraged if it took them 3-4 years to go up in rank.

 

[roryneil]

I totally agree. It's like having your amp that goes to eleven. With so many Black levels, it makes having a black not so special, like a mid-level belt.

 

[dearnis.com]

With so many Black levels, it makes having a black not so special, like a mid-level belt

Part of me really agrees with this, but part of me really wants to stay with the idea that a shodan is merely a beginning.

I would say the problem is not so much the existence of the higher levels, but the fact that high dan ranks are a dime a dozen.

Chad

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I think part of it is the differences between eastern and western ideals on grading. I've heard it said that in say Japan, blackbelt is only the first step, like graduating from high school, where as here in the US, we see it as the 'goal', like a masters degree.

I don't have a big issue with the 'time in' promotions, as long as the one being promoted was active. I do have a problem with the guy who hasn't been on the floor in years who thinks he deserveres a bump though.

I'm less thrilled with the 'political' promotions. The "Oh, youre a 3rd with them, well, join us and we'll give you a 4th" crap.

Lets not even get into the multi-level jumps, or the couple of weeks between promotions.



Cost of a Black Belt : $3 + S/H
Printing of the cert indicating you are 43rd dan : $2
Watching you get your *** kicked by a white belt: Priceless.

For everything else, theres "Uki-Card".
:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

I like the idea of white and black belts withthehead of the system wearing whatever belt color he chooses but I also think that intodays world many people must have goals and a way to visably tell who is who.
With no rank defferation after black many today would might have difficulty telling who was senior in a class. The ranks also give us a perspective of order and accomplishment.
In truth if you take all the belts throw them in a corner and have calss, by the end of class you should be able to tell the ranking order by knowledge, performance, ability to do techniques. and whom the instructor has help onadvanced ideas.

 

[MJS]

In my opinion, I think that alot of people have let the belt ranking go to their head. I mean, it doesn't matter what belt level you are, that is important, it should be how well you know your material and how well you can apply it.

Being a black belt, regardless if it is a 1st degree or 10th degree, does NOT make you into a superman. I've been training for 17 yrs. I'm a 3rd degree black in Kenpo. I've also trained in a few other arts as well. At this point in my training, I could really care less about another level. To me, like I said in the beginning, it is more important to be good at what you know, and be sure that you can make what you know work in a real situation.

Mike

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan
ok ive been thinking about this for a while... so i thought i would ask this on here to see what kind of answers it got...

Do we really need to have so many different dan levels?

after a certain point most often 4th or 5th dan you are basically promoted for time in grade rather than mastery of new technique... so do the arts really need to have 10 different dan levels or in the case of ninjutsu do they really need 15 dan levels? I for one think we dont... the only real reason i can see for so many different levels is simply to identify the "masters" to the uninformed everyday person who has never trained or has simply just begun training... wouldnt it be nice to go back to when it was simply a black belt and not 1st thru 10th dan black belt?

Experience

There is no substitute for experience. Experience can mean wisdom. Not only that, but what come on, mastery? I don't think that you can necessarily master a technique. Rather, just get a good understanding of it. Why have higher dans? Well, at one time, it meant you had much more time to practice the technique. I've spent decades working on the simplest techniques, but who can say that I can't better it? It's a never-ending process.

Not even McDojos usually award high level dans unless they start a new organization. Producing high level dan levels is very difficult to do from legit organizations and will be under scrutiny.

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan
ok ive been thinking about this for a while... so i thought i would ask this on here to see what kind of answers it got...

Do we really need to have so many different dan levels?

after a certain point most often 4th or 5th dan you are basically promoted for time in grade rather than mastery of new technique... so do the arts really need to have 10 different dan levels or in the case of ninjutsu do they really need 15 dan levels? I for one think we dont... the only real reason i can see for so many different levels is simply to identify the "masters" to the uninformed everyday person who has never trained or has simply just begun training... wouldnt it be nice to go back to when it was simply a black belt and not 1st thru 10th dan black belt?

We have a martial arts organisationn here in Australia where the founder never actually got his blackbelt (he got his brown) from anyone and a few years back his students graded him to 7th dan. Also after 10th dan in Ninjitsu the grades are awarded by the old fashioned buddy system. If 2 or three higher ranks say its good then its good.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[Shuri-te]

This is not meant to be critical in any way, but the truth is that our ranking system is firmly embedded, and I can't imagine it changing in any way. There are pros and cons. Regarding the pros, I think the idea of rewarding time in rank has merit. One of the best things we can have in karate is lots of old masters who have consistently practiced throughout their lives. Their years of training can bring wisdom, so I wouldn't want to lump together everyone at say 5th dan, because that would not recognize the lifetime achievement of these old masters. If they have achieved great skill in their life, and are good, decent human beings with the character and demeanor befitting a master, then we should hold a place of special respect for them since that, IMO, is their due. High rank accomplishes this goal admirably.

The challenge we have is that there are often no standards so that many get to high dans at a very young age. We have lots of people starting in the arts as children, and for those that are devoted, by the time they are in their 30's they really do have enormous skill. Some systems wouldn't promote them above 5th or maybe 6th dan, but some would promote them higher, based on their remarkable skill.

In looking at the explosion of high dans, one should be cautious in judging the present by looking at the past. I will keep this to a discussion of the growth of karate, but there are parallels in other arts as well. The primary reason for the growth of karate in the US has its historic roots in the closure of WWII. The US required a large presence in Japan, but the Japanese did not want thousands of troops in the heart of Japan, so a deal was eventually reached where the US would locate its large bases in Okinawa. And today, nearly 60 years later, a rather large percentage of Okinawan soil is part of American air and naval bases.

On Okinawa, tens, if not hundreds of thousands of GIs were exposed to karate. Many studied arduously in Okinawan dojos under some of the very best masters. They took this art home with them. Sometimes they took the masters as well. (Oyata is a case in point who was encouraged to come to the US by a group of his students.)

In some cases, Japanese and Okinawan systems sent out "emissaries" to grow the art abroad. And the case of TKD, this was done on a grand scale and this mass migration of Korean TKD teachers to the US is the foundation for the enormous popularity of this art. But regarding karate, it was the numerous GIs who brought the art to all corners of the US.

If you go back to the 60s, there were just a handful. But they began teaching students in the 60s and 70s, and thousands of those students, now with 25, 30, 35 and 40 years in the arts are still active, training and teaching. The important point is that in the 60s, we had a handful of ex GIs in the US all with perhaps 5 years of training. So of course their rank was relatively low. Fast forward 35-40 years, and now we have these senior masters, and their senior students all with 30+ years in the arts. Should we expect a corresponding explosion of high rank as a result. I am not sure how one would argue we should not.

It has been argued that it doesn't seem appropriate for a master in style A to award a 6th dan to a 5th dan in style B. One of the reasons this is done is purely organizational/financial. If the 5th dan has good schools and students under him, but is not really gaining much from his present organization and teacher, then he is, to some degree, on the market. Although this may sound crass, he is open to the highest bidder. If the master of style A really likes how good this 5th dan and his students are, and thinks his system would benefit from bringing this group into his organization, one of inexpensive ways to do this is to promote the 5th dan to a higher rank. Now some may think that this might be ill-deserved. But perhaps the 5th dan hasn't been promoted in many years, and a promotion might be very appropriate.

You could take this argument a step further. Suppose an instructor has not had good experiences as part of other systems. Let's say that after his many years training in many systems, he has concluded that most karate systems teach a lot of bad fighting concepts, and he doesn't want to be part of an organization the insists that all its sensei teach the same old lousy approach to fighting. So this student of the art might find real value in being independent, and this could go on for many years.

In this case, we should expect that he might not have received any promotion in many years as well. Now let's suppose he meets up with a high ranking master of a large system and finds this group is just what he was looking for and wants to join. It is conceivable that the master would award this student a rank commensurate with his years in the art, skill level, quality of students, and contribution to the art. And that just might qualify a skip in rank.

I bring this up because it happened to me. I had been an independent for many years and remained a 3rd dan as a result. Recently I was invited by a respected American master with 39 years in the arts to teach my ideas at his biannual gathering of his 35 blackbelts from the 9 dojos under him.

It couldn't have gone better. In less than 4 hours, I had given them an introduction to my art by teaching nearly 20 combinations, all with takedowns, from the sequential movements of Pinan Shodan.

But that was just the beginning. After years of searching, I had finally found a master who is not only a great person, but values my approach to the art (few kata, lots of applications) and has no intention of imposing his system on me and my students. We are both Shito Ryu stylists and have the same complaints of a system with 50 kata, and he thinks my teaching of just 5 kata has a lot of merit.

His system has a council made up of his senior students, (several 5th and 4th dans). He asked whether any had any reservations about bringing me in as a 5th dan. He told me they all thought it was a good idea, and given that his senior students were only 5th dan, I should consider it a strong vote of confidence.

Some people, myself included, would say that given my time studying various arts (just shy of 30 years) that 5th dan is nothing special, and therefore the skip in rank shouldn't be considered any big deal. Others might argue that any skip in rank is suspect.

We are all entitled to our opinions, and this is a great forum to share them on, in agreement, and respectful disagreement. I would like to commend the contributors to MT for the respect and friendliness I have found on this forum during my recent posts. It has been great.

 

[Cthulhu]

Back when I was active in Doversola's Okinawa-te system, there were no dan rankings. You got your black belt, and that was it. After that, everything was based on a combination of seniority and additional kata learned from Doversola or his senior instructors. I'm not sure how they do it now.

I've been training for a year and a half with my FMA instructors and I have no rank. That's just fine with me. I don't have that as a distraction. I just train. Or rather, I just get whomped on and hope to learn something in the process.

Cthulhu

 

[tonbo]

Dan rankings are way too embedded in the western mind to be changed at this point. Too many people would cry if you took away their beloved 9th/10th/15th Dan belts.

To a degree (no pun intended), I think that the western idea has merit. It is nice to know who is the senior student in a school, and who has put in the most time. However, a Dan ranking doesn't necessarily indicate *experience*, as has been pointed out. There are folks that I know who are not Black in any style, yet possess quite a wealth of martial knowledge, and I wouldn't want to tangle with them when they are pissed off.

I figure, leave it as it is. Those who value the rank system and measure their skill or worth by it will continue to puff themselves up, and those who are unaffected by it will continue walking their own path.

Black is just the beginning. By achieving that rank, I consider myself as having earned the right to not worry about rank anymore. That is now in the hands of my instructor. I know generally what I can handle and what I can't. At this point, trying to put myself in a category against most others is just pointless. All I know is that I have passed off the basics well enough to start learning the "good stuff".

Hey....it's a *belt*. It doesn't define who you are. As a friend of mine once said, upon observing a college boy trying to look real cool in his brand-new leather biker jacket: "The leather don't make the man....the man makes the leather".

As always, your mileage may vary.

Peace--

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by tonbo
Dan rankings are way too embedded in the western mind to be changed at this point. Too many people would cry if you took away their beloved 9th/10th/15th Dan belts.

To a degree (no pun intended), I think that the western idea has merit. It is nice to know who is the senior student in a school, and who has put in the most time. However, a Dan ranking doesn't necessarily indicate *experience*, as has been pointed out. There are folks that I know who are not Black in any style, yet possess quite a wealth of martial knowledge, and I wouldn't want to tangle with them when they are pissed off.

I figure, leave it as it is. Those who value the rank system and measure their skill or worth by it will continue to puff themselves up, and those who are unaffected by it will continue walking their own path.

Black is just the beginning. By achieving that rank, I consider myself as having earned the right to not worry about rank anymore. That is now in the hands of my instructor. I know generally what I can handle and what I can't. At this point, trying to put myself in a category against most others is just pointless. All I know is that I have passed off the basics well enough to start learning the "good stuff".

Hey....it's a *belt*. It doesn't define who you are. As a friend of mine once said, upon observing a college boy trying to look real cool in his brand-new leather biker jacket: "The leather don't make the man....the man makes the leather".

As always, your mileage may vary.

Peace--

That's only if people are too lenient with giving out ranks. Ranking systems did at one point meant skill, experience, and power. If you put in 5000 hours and have 500 fights under your belt but still aren't able to do this, then you won't be promoted. There is absolutely no room for the liberal feel-good society.

 

[tonbo]

If you go back far enough, there was only white and black, when it came to rank. You were either a student or an advanced student. It was because of the western need to measure progress that all the pretty colored belts came in. (At least, that is the version of MA history that I have heard).

I have no quarrel with legitimate, hard-earned rank. I *do* have a problem with people who are more concerned with their rank and showing it off, as opposed to people who are more concerned with what they can do with their knowledge.

I also have a real problem with schools that grade you by video, for the most part. Yeah, it can benefit some that have no other way to train, but.......I mean, really.....even *I* can look good on video, given enough time and rehearsal.

Ah, well.

Peace--

 

[A.R.K.]

From a business aspect you almost need the various levels, unfortunately.

From a training aspect, different levels are a nicety not a necessity.

I've never been asked prior to an altercation what my rank was

:asian:

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by sammy3170
We have a martial arts organisationn here in Australia where the founder never actually got his blackbelt (he got his brown) from anyone

There are more than a few of those around.......

 

[tonbo]

I've never been asked prior to an altercation what my rank was

You mean, bad guys don't immediately break into a sweat and run when you assume your "I'm a bad mutha" MA stance before an altercation?

Are you implying, then, that the bad guys aren't civil, and don't defer to higher ranks before getting in a fight? Say it ain't so!!

Next, you'll tell me that I really didn't have to register myself as a lethal weapon after earning my Black Belt.......

:asian:

Peace--

 

[A.R.K.]

You only have to register the dreaded Black belt judo chop.

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Seig
There are more than a few of those around.......

Its reallt the only major one in Australia at one time having 1000 schools teaching the style. Im not saying 100 full time schools but a black belt instructor teaching a a hall would be considered 1 school. I believe its very segregated now and no where near as strong in numbers.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[OULobo]

I like to think that the skill level that you demonstrate should speak over and above what belt color you wear. The only other reason to where different forms of identification is to let less experienced students know who to ask questions to. I don't know how many times I have seen people with instructor rank and they couldn't even apply what they "knew" realistically. I came to believe in the idea that if they don't know by watching me that I am of higher rank, then I shouldn't be wearing that rank afterall. So I don't wear any belt/sash/patch/ect. in training, only at a formal event. Part of being a martial artist is being humble and part of being a warrior is deception.