Have you learned any thing??

[Andrew Green]

@Andrew Green thank you Andrew. It sounds like you walk the walk as an instructor and owner I have no doubt from those many cases you have hinted at that you have seen the worth of your art as more than just a fighting form. I wonder beyond this Andrew either of you your self or of those you have trained, what personal changes have happened. For example, if a student has been able to control anxiety (which is absolutely fantastic btw!) what is the learning that that person has gained specifically about them selves? Forgive me if this is unclear.. I know what I am trying to ask.. I hope it come across! Thank you again, Jxx

I would suspect it is being forced into stressful situations and proving to yourself that a clear and calm approach solves the problem, and even when it doesn't the world doesn't end. Being pinned while someone is trying to twist your limbs or choke you is stressful, panicking doesn't help. Being pinned in a corner with someone throwing punches and kicks is stressful, panicking doesn't help. After 6-months, a year, 2 years, whatever it takes that person also realizes that they can defend themselves and control bigger, stronger, larger opponents with clear thinking, technique and strategy.

I don't think it's learning about yourself as much as it is reprogramming yourself to react to stress hormones in a different way.

"Play fighting".. which despite all the fancy names, structure and traditions we add on to it is basically what martial arts is. And play fighting is possibly one of the most natural play behaviours we have, along with just about every other animal on the planet. It's a important part of the learning experience both physically and mentally.

 

[Buka]

I learned not to accept, as Gospel, anything some guy in a gi said as truth. I learned this about myself from training. Because, back in the day, I learned something else about myself. That I WOULD accept anything some guy in a gi said, because he was an Instructor. In essence, I learned that I was niave and gullible concerning Martial Arts. It was a great thing to learn. And, obviously, change.

I learned something else about myself. I either couldn't understand, recognize, or even compehand that not all students loved Martial Arts as much as I did. (I couldn't believe it! The bastards!) Recognizing that helped a great deal in my teaching and my understanding of people. I don't expect students to love the Arts as much as I do. The ones that do, I almost feel sorry for. They will have a long, difficult journey with undoubtably numerous injuries, many of which never go away. And they'll eventually end up on Martial Art forums discussing everything with people they don't really know, but who are just as plain bat crap crazy as themselves.

I learned this about myself - "I'm not all that." Just a guy doing Martial Arts.

Coming up through the ranks I always thought Dojo Christmas parties kind of sucked. Running dojos I had them, lots of food, music whatever. I still go to them because friends or students run dojos and they have them. What I learned is, Christmas Dojo parties will always kind of suck.

 

[ks - learning to fly]

@ks - learning to fly, I think the ability to stare OUR OWN fear in the eye and fight back take quite some doing, it is so encouraging to know that you have been able to overcome that terrible event with the help of your MA! I believe as you do too that we are all capable of more than we might first conceive!! I would like to ask you some thing if that is ok.. you say in order to lead you have to follow.. and intuitively it feel to me that there is a wisdom in this statement and but I cannot quite get to the meaning or example of it.. can you say how you mean this please? I am keen to know this. Thank you again! Jxxx

'In order to lead, you have to follow" - I think how this one came about for me is I think it is rare to find someone who is a 'born leader'...there are more likely a great number of people who have strong leadership qualities but to develop those individual skills and become a good leader - that's a whole other process - which I just think would be more realistic. Also - and I believe martial arts is great for this - because everyone starts at white belt (or, at our dojang - no belt) and because of that position - regardless of age - you need to 'follow', pay attention and focus on what the Instructor or senior student is teaching..subsequently, once you've earned a higher ranking position and begin to help others - if you've haven't paid attention or learned to follow - how can you lead? Bottom line - there are no shortcuts - so, in order to lead, you have to follow'..

 

[Cirdan]

I like that a lot.. I can imagine how that would work with what OTHERS might perceive of us as our weakness.. Like people are not worried about saying to my face -in not such nice words- you are petite and not burly, what can you do to me? that is THEIR perception of a weakness in me not mine.. I am fine with that because it does not correspond to any short coming I see in my self.

So my question of you Cirdan if it is ok to ask would be, is it possible those traits you your self perceive as weakness in you.. that THESE can be seen as strength? if so how can that work that it is not just counterintuitive and paradoxical? Interested to know as I think you have hit on some thing very pertinent both within MA and without.. thank you kindly, Jx

Oh I was definitely talking about things I percived as weakness in myself. Anger for instance is fueled by passion and a great strength once you are not ruled by it. I see the journey of learning martial arts very much as learning what it means to be human.

 

[Jenna]

@Xue Sheng, I appreciate you taking time to reply XS.. I wonder of the learnings about your self you are not so proud, do you take consolation that ALL learning about your self is to your ultimate benefit? Or is that untrue do you think?

I am certain if you look that you have the tools to wear the rough spot you are in to smooth. Wishes, Jx


@Orange Lightning, hey thank you for your reply. I welcome your thoughts and having read all through what you have written it is plain you spend much time in thought.. You have given me permission to pick your brains and so then I want to ask you some thing else to clarify your thinking.. Why do you say that first picture is creepy? Jx


@donald1, ah no! not too curious at all and do not let any one cause you to believe that.. Perhaps some day that curiosity of yours will lead you to discover some thing of very great importance. Thank you too for your courtesy and conversation, Jx


@Andrew Green, I like very much that you include the possibility of a thing not working out TOGETHER with a way to mitigate by clear thought the potential stress of it.. that is clever, thank you.

Reprogramming the self to react to stress hormone in a different way is not learning about the self? I am wondering is there any thing I can learn about my self from the fact that I can reprogram my reactions to what I had previously thought was pure reflex?

Play Fighting.. yes I like that view.. I think there would be beneficial ways to use that term to arouse the drive towards reprogramming away from harmful stress reactions in people does that make sense??


@Buka, thank you for returning to post and I think it is awesome that you have a TRUE self-learning here that you realised you would just accept any thing.. am I right in thinking some aspect of your MA made you realise.. Hey Buka! -even if that is not what you call your self in your own head- Hey Buka! you are too good to accept just any thing as truth just because he has a gi??

I see too an awareness of others.. through teaching you learned you could put your self in the minds of your students and see from their pov even despite your contrary views.. There is surely no more primary trait in a teacher than this.. And well you may be just a guy doing MA, for what it is worth I would feel gratitude to be a student of yours because your humility in my experience is rare.. valuable to me and but rare.. rarely more than lipservice among teachers whose student I have been.. Let me ask you B, is there any risk in being self-effacing –like you say “I am not all that”- of some one taking you at your word?

And I have a theory of Christmas parties sucking royally? it is because they are a total contrivance whether for the dojo folks or work folks.. we are confused.. we are meant to train with these people or work with these people and not share the season of goodwill.. Best way I found is to make folk in the dojo spar for food! then it will all make sense to every body! Thank you again for your reply.. I would love to read more Jx


@ks - learning to fly, yes that absolutely make sense now, learning from the ground up.. thank you for elaborating! Can I ask your opinion please.. what do you think of those that are “parachuted into roles” as it were.. I mean who do not serve time working up and but seem to drift in by process or are bestowed the entitlement by some one more senior? do you have less respect for that person in that role do you think? Thank you again for your thoughts, Jx


@Cirdan, hey thank you for replying back, your views are most welcome indeed And I hope you are not annoyed if I ask another question of you? It is just that I always thought anger was not such a good thing and definitely not a strength.. passion yes I understand this.. if it is ok, I would be interested to hear your thoughts about how anger per se being considered a strength without being deferred to the passion underlying it? Wishes, Jx

 

[Xue Sheng]

@Xue Sheng, I appreciate you taking time to reply XS.. I wonder of the learnings about your self you are not so proud, do you take consolation that ALL learning about your self is to your ultimate benefit? Or is that untrue do you think?

I am certain if you look that you have the tools to wear the rough spot you are in to smooth. Wishes, Jx

It is a benefit, and it is surprising as well to realize these things, for a while I was trying to figure out when these changed, but then realized when was not important. It is also a learning process when it comes to figuring out how to change. As for the rough spot it remains to be seen how one gets through it and where it leads and at times the mind just wants to believe it is all better when it actually isn't. So far I see 3 possible outcomes.... time will tell

 

[tshadowchaser]

. Assuming there are people out there who CAN tolerate bullies and frauds, HOW do you think they are able to tolerate such people? What do they do that we do not that makes them able to tolerate bullies and frauds?

Jenna:
I think people who can tolerate bullies may well be bullies themselves or at least have a superior attitude to all around themselves.
That may well go for those who tolerate frauds also but I feel many who tolerate frauds just feel that time will show the fraud for what they are. Many look at frauds as something that has become unpreventable and hope that the general public will see them for what they are ( which rarely happens).
With out taking out a advertisement in a newspaper or writing a column on why the person is a fraud it is hard to let people know. And unfortunately taking one out back and beating the hell out of them is illegal if your caught
sorry this answer will detract from the op and I apologies for that, perhaps it needs to have a tread of it's own once again

 

[stand-up-strike]

I was always leaving myself open for body shots so I have learned to protect my ribs...

 

[Flying Crane]

Hi Jenna. I'd say that I've learned how easy it is to injure someone, and how easy it is to be injured. Not just bumps and bruises, but REALLY injure. And how fighting is really, really stupid because of that.

 

[Orange Lightning]

hey thank you for your reply. I welcome your thoughts and having read all through what you have written it is plain you spend much time in thought.. You have given me permission to pick your brains and so then I want to ask you some thing else to clarify your thinking.. Why do you say that first picture is creepy? Jx

xD You don't find it creepy? Not in the least? xD You know how no one likes clowns? Even creep some people out. Well, that's uncanny valley.

Nope.Nopenopenopenope

Well, perhaps it's a cultural experience thing. Different cultures and people have different experiences and context about what things are supposed to be "scary".

You can read more on the uncanny valley though. If you want. It's a well known thing in internet culture now. You could just google it and get plenty, but I can start you off.

Uncanny Valley - TV Tropes

10 Creepy Examples of the Uncanny Valley

This one has to do with uncanny valley in game design. Games have recently become able to render very realistic graphics, but sometimes the developers don't handle it well and make it look unnerving.

https://duckduckgo.com/l/?kh=-1&uddg=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K1Kd9mZL8g

Maybe this one?

 

[ks - learning to fly]

@ks - learning to fly, yes that absolutely make sense now, learning from the ground up.. thank you for elaborating! Can I ask your opinion please.. what do you think of those that are “parachuted into roles” as it were.. I mean who do not serve time working up and but seem to drift in by process or are bestowed the entitlement by some one more senior? do you have less respect for that person in that role do you think? Thank you again for your thoughts, Jx

Hey Jenna - Honestly, respect - in my opinion - must be earned no matter the role..but I firmly believe if someone is 'parachuted' into a role -
that lack of foundation is going to show.. I've met some in those elevated roles who haven't had that foundation and while they didn't make
the best leaders - some of them were gracious and honest enough to know when to ask for help. I guess it's kind of like the old Bible story
about building a house on stone rather than sand..With a strong foundation, it's easier (not simple ) to move forward..

 

[crazydiamond]

That even later in life I can overcome obstacles, continue to grow, try new things, ways of thinking and being, be a more multifaceted man. Frankly I am more at peace with myself having added Martial Arts into my life.

Whats next? Lets do it !

 

[Buka]

[USER=26001]@Buka, thank you for returning to post and I think it is awesome that you have a TRUE self-learning here that you realised you would just accept any thing.. am I right in thinking some aspect of your MA made you realise.. Hey Buka! -even if that is not what you call your self in your own head- Hey Buka! you are too good to accept just any thing as truth just because he has a gi??

I see too an awareness of others.. through teaching you learned you could put your self in the minds of your students and see from their pov even despite your contrary views.. There is surely no more primary trait in a teacher than this.. And well you may be just a guy doing MA, for what it is worth I would feel gratitude to be a student of yours because your humility in my experience is rare.. valuable to me and but rare.. rarely more than lipservice among teachers whose student I have been.. Let me ask you B, is there any risk in being self-effacing –like you say “I am not all that”- of some one taking you at your word?

[/USER]

It stemmed from my first full time Sensei. There weren't many dojos around back then, and the ones that were around didn't much get along with each other for some reason. My Sensei was not an honorable man. After a few years, myself and a few others did most of the teaching. Sensei didn't care, all he wanted was the money and to hit on women he thought he might have a chance with. Mostly mothers of kid's who trained and thirty something year old female students - which there weren't many of back then.

He promoted himself to a higher dan rank, twice. He would run ads in the local papers claiming to teach styles other than our own, he would promote students who should have NEVER been promoted - if their fathers were influencial in the community. It was more tham embarressing, it was awful. I should point out that he did not teach us to spar or fight, he did not know how to fight nor to teach someone else to fight. We had to learn on our own at various Institues of Higher Pugilistic Education, including boxing gyms, then bring home what we learned and teach it to everyone else. This went on for several years.
We started winning a lot of tournaments and ring matches. A bootload of them. That of course, got him a bit green eyed. So he brought in the old trophies he had won from some of the biggest tournaments in the country years before. They were big old fashioned trophies for winning first place in Kumite at the biggest tournaments in the country. Ed Parkers Internationals, Henry Cho's in New York, The Nationals in D.C. and on and on. You name the tourney, he probably won it. - Except, he never actually fought in ANY of them, ever, I checked. The only reason we put up with all this is we needed a place to train, he wasn't training us anymore, maybe teaching once a month if a potential customer/student walked in to watch class. But only if he thought she was hot.

As for the self defense he taught us. Think Master Ken's little brother. (seriously) Took us years to untrain ourselves and actually learn viable self defense from good and experienced sources.

We eventually went off on our own. Explored a lot of Senseis. Trusted them because they weren't Joe. We figured he was just an abberation. That was not always so. So we went to Plan C. We sought out the very best Martial Artists we knew, read about or heard about, and had them train us.

I used to think he was the worst thing that ever happened to me in the Martial Arts. But now I believe it was just the opposite. Taught me every single thing a Sensei should not be. Not even a little bit. And he always made me want to teach out of neccessity (so he wouldn't) and later, I just wanted to make it up to students at large. And I never would have sought out who I thought were the best teachers - had he been just an average Joe.

He eventually got beaten up in public, at a competition, by a judge no less (I kid you not) beaten badly and hospitalized for five days, seriously injured, and left the arts. It was an ugly shame. But, I bear him no ill will.

Also - I used the term "some guy in a gi" as a catch all generalization. I encountered similar, if not as dramatic, situations among Defensive Tactics instuctors in Law Enforcement. I hope it's not the same way now, but I don't know. A lot of departments I've dealt with do not have great resources or numbers. Often, a department would send one of it's members to a two week course to get certified as a D.T instructor. Two weeks. With no previous experience or skill in the field. Some were ONE week. And I'm not talking forty years ago. I last encountered it in 2007. NOTE - I know some great D.T instructors, I mean really top notch, so please don't think I paint the whole field with the same brush.

As for people taking me at my word about not being all that. I sincerly hope so. :)

And, Jenna? I love the idea about sparing for food! I can see the ref at the party. "Next up is this wonderful plate of lasagna, eggplant parmesian, killer garlic bread and three of the best meatballs you'll eat this year! Fighters ready!"

EDIT- I have no idea why this text is colored.

Sorry for the long post. But it's a long story. :)

 

[Xue Sheng]

Today I learned training Dachengquan with a student of Wang Xiangzhai is pretty darn cool

 

[Orange Lightning]

It stemmed from my first full time Sensei. There weren't many dojos around back then, and the ones that were around didn't much get along with each other for some reason. My Sensei was not an honorable man. After a few years, myself and a few others did most of the teaching. Sensei didn't care, all he wanted was the money and to hit on women he thought he might have a chance with. Mostly mothers of kid's who trained and thirty something year old female students - which there weren't many of back then.

He promoted himself to a higher dan rank, twice. He would run ads in the local papers claiming to teach styles other than our own, he would promote students who should have NEVER been promoted - if their fathers were influencial in the community. It was more tham embarressing, it was awful. I should point out that he did not teach us to spar or fight, he did not know how to fight nor to teach someone else to fight. We had to learn on our own at various Institues of Higher Pugilistic Education, including boxing gyms, then bring home what we learned and teach it to everyone else. This went on for several years.
We started winning a lot of tournaments and ring matches. A bootload of them. That of course, got him a bit green eyed. So he brought in the old trophies he had won from some of the biggest tournaments in the country years before. They were big old fashioned trophies for winning first place in Kumite at the biggest tournaments in the country. Ed Parkers Internationals, Henry Cho's in New York, The Nationals in D.C. and on and on. You name the tourney, he probably won it. - Except, he never actually fought in ANY of them, ever, I checked. The only reason we put up with all this is we needed a place to train, he wasn't training us anymore, maybe teaching once a month if a potential customer/student walked in to watch class. But only if he thought she was hot.

As for the self defense he taught us. Think Master Ken's little brother. (seriously) Took us years to untrain ourselves and actually learn viable self defense from good and experienced sources.

We eventually went off on our own. Explored a lot of Senseis. Trusted them because they weren't Joe. We figured he was just an abberation. That was not always so. So we went to Plan C. We sought out the very best Martial Artists we knew, read about or heard about, and had them train us.

I used to think he was the worst thing that ever happened to me in the Martial Arts. But now I believe it was just the opposite. Taught me every single thing a Sensei should not be. Not even a little bit. And he always made me want to teach out of neccessity (so he wouldn't) and later, I just wanted to make it up to students at large. And I never would have sought out who I thought were the best teachers - had he been just an average Joe.

He eventually got beaten up in public, at a competition, by a judge no less (I kid you not) beaten badly and hospitalized for five days, seriously injured, and left the arts. It was an ugly shame. But, I bear him no ill will.

Also - I used the term "some guy in a gi" as a catch all generalization. I encountered similar, if not as dramatic, situations among Defensive Tactics instuctors in Law Enforcement. I hope it's not the same way now, but I don't know. A lot of departments I've dealt with do not have great resources or numbers. Often, a department would send one of it's members to a two week course to get certified as a D.T instructor. Two weeks. With no previous experience or skill in the field. Some were ONE week. And I'm not talking forty years ago. I last encountered it in 2007. NOTE - I know some great D.T instructors, I mean really top notch, so please don't think I paint the whole field with the same brush.

As for people taking me at my word about not being all that. I sincerly hope so. :)

And, Jenna? I love the idea about sparing for food! I can see the ref at the party. "Next up is this wonderful plate of lasagna, eggplant parmesian, killer garlic bread and three of the best meatballs you'll eat this year! Fighters ready!"

EDIT- I have no idea why this text is colored.

Sorry for the long post. But it's a long story. :)

Why is it linked to Xue Sheng's page?

 

[Orange Lightning]

I remembered something I learned! This is the first time I've ever used this emoticon! Will probably be the last! I would like to use more of these fantastic face things!

I learned that I can be irrationally hard on myself. There were days when I just got sad during training because I thought I should be way better than I was for the amount of time I put in. I would often distrust my opinions in favor others, and not just on MA. Only to find later that my opinion was perfectly valid. Temporarily joyous, because I would be quick to put myself right back down.

Really, really, out of that now. I learned how to not be hard on myself. I learned how to trust myself and to let my find just focus on what it needs to, instead of wonder if it's correct or not. Time spent wondering that would be better spent focusing on what would solve that problem anyway. Focus. On improvement and learning.

I've also found that I have good focus compared to most people I know. In fairness, I'm a terrible multitasker. (Scientifically speaking, so is everyone, but some people do seem better at it than others.) Perhaps this focus comes from MA?

 

[donald1]

xD You don't find it creepy? Not in the least? xD You know how no one likes clowns? Even creep some people out. Well, that's uncanny valley.


Nope.Nopenopenopenope


Well, perhaps it's a cultural experience thing. Different cultures and people have different experiences and context about what things are supposed to be "scary".


You can read more on the uncanny valley though. If you want. It's a well known thing in internet culture now. You could just google it and get plenty, but I can start you off.


Uncanny Valley - TV Tropes


10 Creepy Examples of the Uncanny Valley


This one has to do with uncanny valley in game design. Games have recently become able to render very realistic graphics, but sometimes the developers don't handle it well and make it look unnerving.

Maybe this one?

I could never understand why people think clowns are creepy ... seem friendly to me

 

[marques]

The way you train/fight is the way you are.
If you find problems and solutions here, you can use it to improve your daily life...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why is it linked to Xue Sheng's page?

To quote Ozzy Osborne..... Don't ask me - I don't know

 

[Jenna]

@Xue Sheng, you mean it can be surprising to realise there is learning even from the negatives yes? I would definitely agree with that indeed.. And can I ask some thing else XS? Say you find your self needing to effect some positive change either in your self or in your environment or situation only this time your normal process is insufficient.. Do you think there is a learning even in this? Perhaps about who we are or how we act? Jx


@tshadowchaser, that is an interesting viewpoint on those kinds of folk.. I wonder too are people that tolerate bullies in a way condoning that behaviour? Perhaps some one elses bullying connects to their own feeling of weakness in them selves? It makes sense why outing a fraud is a welcome thing for those that might be unwittingly fooled or damaged due to it. I would like to ask Sheldon do you think there is any difference between tolerating bullying and tolerating a bully or likewise between tolerating fraud and tolerating a fraudulent person? If we cannot condone the behaviour is there any point do you think in trying to understand the person behind that behaviour? And if you are detracting from the OP then I am too so we are both guilty haha Thank you again for your time and patience in answering, I am always grateful, Jxx


@stand-up-strike
What was happening that you were leaving your self open for body shots? Were your hands protecting your head? Was your mind else where in the fight? What was going on that made you do this do you know? Thank you for your contribution! Jx


@Flying Crane, Aha I knew I could rely on you to have a wise thought like this Michael It is from your share of injuries and having apportioned injury to others that you know how fragile we can be yes? I would ask my self this at times so I am interested to know your opinion Michael because your reasoning is always clear and you have consistency of argument, if fighting is really stupid like you have learned, what are the reasons do you practice a fighting martial art? We reconcile the two in our own way.. I should very much like to know how you see it? Thank you again so much for taking time, Jxxxx


@Orange Lightning, well I could ask you as a representative of your culture why this is creepy though I am more interested in why you your self find this creepy Mister OL ok I will ask you same question by alternate route, my friend have a little daughter who is born with what clinicians refer to as genetic abnormality.. I imagine by our natural way of perceiving things as you describe it, she would be designated and categorised creepy. I want to know if she were a family member of yours perhaps a niece and her features were resemblant of this image you posted would she creep you out –because it is evolution etc. – though you would not say in polite company? Or would you admit she was creepy to your friend or family member who was her father say? OR would you avoid going to your friend/family members house to avoid the creepy child? Or some thing else? Where in the shade of uncanny valley would you find your self do you think?

Regarding your other learning from training, you are suggesting you were irrational to be hard on your self, so much so that you learned how not to be hard on your self yes? How would you address this view were it held by a student of yours now or in future?

I like your logic, you are good at it. Thank you for your conversation, Jx


@ks - learning to fly, ks that makes complete sense from start to end yes! and I know people who have been pur into these roles just like this which is why I am interested in your opinion.. and but you would have respect for the person for who they are do you think, irrespective of whether they have earned respect in the role per se? I mean are some people not entitled to respect because they have not earned it as say leader / instructor? Or do we respect them as people and but just do not respect their lack of ability? I hope this is understandable.. I know what I am trying to say, forgive me if it is unclear.. I welcome your thoughts though because you have insight and clarity in your reasoning, Jxxx


@crazydiamond, I have noted this sentiment a lot as I feel my self accept the flight of my youth.. I would like to ask you crazydiamond, what would be your worst fear of getting older –as we all are- what are the obstacles that lie ahead of you? I should very much like to know also how adding MA into your life has assisted you with finding peace with your self.. I believe this is very true and I wonder what is your particular route to this peace through your practice if you were willing to share? I hope so, thank you for your comment and contribution, Jxx


@Buka, hey I absolutely love this story, I read it like it was a book.. I hope there is more of that book you have such adeptness at peinting the character –even though he is real I know! I mean there is an awesome lesson in that tale of Sensei Joe because it is almost allegorical for even the bad apple can still bear good seeds! I like that and I like that you were strong enough and wise enough to learn so much and to apply that learning to your own successes which in turn help others.. that is so awesome and has given me a very big smile! Thank you xx.. I bet you have lots of these stories I would so love to hear.. Still though.. I cannot let you away with you say you are “not all that”? tell me why is that a good thing to have learned? You recognise your abilities yes?? and not every person in the street have these abilities, skills, attributes, yes? so what is not all that? Will you say to me Buka why it is good some times that we keep our selves in our right place by saying we are not all that? .. or we could just spar for food haha.. Lols.. any way if you are able to answer my question it would help a lot! Thank you again, Jxxx


@marques, hey there, can you explain a bit more about the way you train/fight is the way you are for me please? And what ways have you found you have been able to improve your daily life becuase that sounds like a very practical real-world application of learning which has great importance.. I would like to know how you mean that if it is ok to ask Thank you, Jx