Has there ever been a tournament/competition combining ITF and WTF?

[Tez3]

To be fair a lot of people in TKD say the Olympic stuff isn't TKD and not in the spirit of it etc etc. It's been said on here a few times as well so if the North Koreans think that they aren't alone. Whether they are right or wrong is a different thing but it's a quite widely held view.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Although the "traditional circuit" has greatly shrank both in number of tournaments and number of competitors, they are all "open" tournaments. Mainly attended by independent schools from the original kwans, there are WTF and ITF practitioners that show up. For example, GM Kyonwon Ahn's "classic", GM Ki Whang KIM's Eagle Classic, GM S. Henry Cho's All American Open, GM Il Joo KIM's North American Championships, GM Sok Ho KANG's U.S. Open Martial Arts Championship, GM Joon Pyo Choi's Battle of Columbus, GM C.S. KIM's National All Martial Arts Championship, GM Soon Ho KIM's tournament (Akron, Ohio.. . Can't remember the name of the tournament though) and many others through the years. The above listed competitions were the tournament's that we frequented, some of which are no longer held, and others have significantly changed.

Many Olympic TKD competitors competed at these events, and atleast in the 70's, 80's, and 90's were all traditional "3 point" rule sets. In the late 90's some of these tournaments opened up separate "olympic rulesets" and 3-point rule sets competitions. Atleast for these competitions, most of them allowed all kicks above the waist and punches to the body only (with the exception of the BB divisions, which sometimes allowed punches and backfists to the face).

Like many of said above, no one "style" dominated. It was all about the individual, not about the style.

 

[Gorilla]

This would be a great set of rules and might just make TKD more popular. Full contact to the face would probably need to change the head gear to more boxing like gear for amateur competitions. Punches would probably need to remain striaght no hooks,uppercuts or overhand shots. If those punches are allowed just call it kick boxing.

Full contact reverse punches and back fists martial arts type strikes to the head would be great.

Refer post 14

 

[Cyriacus]

This would be a great set of rules and might just make TKD more popular. Full contact to the face would probably need to change the head gear to more boxing like gear for amateur competitions. Punches would probably need to remain striaght no hooks,uppercuts or overhand shots. If those punches are allowed just call it kick boxing.

Full contact reverse punches and back fists martial arts type strikes to the head would be great.

That said, Hooking Punch (Or Roundhouse Punch), and Upset Punch are common enough.

 

[Gorilla]

That said, Hooking Punch (Or Roundhouse Punch), and Upset Punch are common enough.

Not familiar with those type of terms. I am referring to western boxing style punching.

 

[Cyriacus]

Not familiar with those type of terms. I am referring to western boxing style punching.

Roundhouse Punch = Hook Punch but based more on Elbow Closing than Swinging.
Upset Punch = Midsection Uppercut.

They are found in most forms of Karate and all forms of Taekwondo.

 

[puunui]

I disagree. The fighter will make the difference, not the targets.

Or the rules. GM John Holloway medalled at the first ITF World Championships and then a couple of years later, did the same thing at the WTF World Championships. M Dae Sung Lee and GM William Kim used to enter karate tournaments and win, even though face punching was allowed. A good martial artist should be able to make a seemless transition, no matter what the rules are.

 

[puunui]

This is the same Ri Yong Son who shows up at "integration talks" with the WTF, signs and agreement that each party will respect the other, is asked by the WTF to present documents to move forward with the integration of ITF sparring and forms into WTF events. While the WTF is waiting, for 5 years now, the ITF Integration Committee director repeated the North Korean propaganda to the media.

I don't think there will ever be an ITF WTF merger. What purpose would that serve for North Korea?

The ITF Will Not Be Part of the World Military Championships

The information was given by the WTF to masTaekwondo.com this Friday morning (Seoul time), and they informed that during the CISM World Military Taekwondo Championships, the ITF Poomsaes will not be present.

There you go.

 

[puunui]

This would be a great set of rules and might just make TKD more popular. Full contact to the face would probably need to change the head gear to more boxing like gear for amateur competitions. Punches would probably need to remain striaght no hooks,uppercuts or overhand shots. If those punches are allowed just call it kick boxing.

If you added face punches to the WTF Competition Rules, it would end up looking like kickboxing. That would completely destroy taekwondo's individuality as a competitive sport. What purpose does that serve?

 

[Gorilla]

If you added face punches to the WTF Competition Rules, it would end up looking like kickboxing. That would completely destroy taekwondo's individuality as a competitive sport. What purpose does that serve?

My own taste. My kids agree with you! They believe tkd is a kicking sport and it should stay that way. I understand the way that you feel though. It would probably take away from its individuality.

The funny thing is that they are good punchers and use it in competition. In the end they would leave the punching to karate. When they do TKD they want to kick.

 

[andyjeffries]

Is there really that much of a difference between the power of the strikes thrown in WTF matches and the ITF? I'm a newbie at this, so I have only seen vids... but there are some pretty hard kicks and punches landed in most of the ITF matches I've seen.

One guy got knocked down by a punch to the head, and had to take a few minutes to regain his senses. The ref told the puncher that he started his punch too far back and the refs will see that as putting too much behind it.

I think you answered your own question. In WTF Taekwondo you never get a guy given "a few minutes to regain his senses" after a hard kick to the head, it's a knockout pure and simple.

So although the videos you've seen may look like they're both "pretty hard", the ITF techniques may have been adjusted to not have as much distance to travel* or just reduce power at the last moment so as not to give excessive contact (instead of aiming through the target aim just in front of it, so the impact is just the run-off of the strike).

This isn't to say that ITF guys can't hit hard (I'm sure they can), but that comparing competition rule sets and saying that they're both hard is setting the standard for "hard" too low (as all the major ITF bodies say excessive contact is a deduction and as you say above, if it happens the guy is given time to recover).

* A lot of people in Taekwondo recite "Force equals mass times acceleration" as if it's the only equation that matters, the fact of the matter is for an given acceleration the longer distance an object can travel the higher speed it will reach and therefore have higher Kinetic Energy (½mv²). Shorten the travel path of a strike and reduce it's impact.

 

[TKDinAK]

I think you answered your own question. In WTF Taekwondo you never get a guy given "a few minutes to regain his senses" after a hard kick to the head, it's a knockout pure and simple.

Understand that that happened at a house tourney. Our school put it on for just their own students so the people who had never been to a tourney could experience how a real one ran. Don't know the rules for a real ITF tournament... but I will be attending one in a couple weeks, so I will get a better sense.

 

[andyjeffries]

Understand that that happened at a house tourney. Our school put it on for just their own students so the people who had never been to a tourney could experience how a real one ran. Don't know the rules for a real ITF tournament... but I will be attending one in a couple weeks, so I will get a better sense.

http://tkd-itf.org/pub_web/docs/2006%20ITF%20World%20Junior%20and%20Senior%20Tournament%20Rules%20-%20April%2024th%202006.doc

T 36. DISQUALIFICATION
a. Misconduct against officials or ignoring instructions.
b. Heavy contact.
c. Committing three (3) fouls.
d. Any competitor being under influence of alcoholic beverages or drugs.

 

[Cyriacus]

I think you answered your own question. In WTF Taekwondo you never get a guy given "a few minutes to regain his senses" after a hard kick to the head, it's a knockout pure and simple.

So although the videos you've seen may look like they're both "pretty hard", the ITF techniques may have been adjusted to not have as much distance to travel* or just reduce power at the last moment so as not to give excessive contact (instead of aiming through the target aim just in front of it, so the impact is just the run-off of the strike).

This isn't to say that ITF guys can't hit hard (I'm sure they can), but that comparing competition rule sets and saying that they're both hard is setting the standard for "hard" too low (as all the major ITF bodies say excessive contact is a deduction and as you say above, if it happens the guy is given time to recover).

* A lot of people in Taekwondo recite "Force equals mass times acceleration" as if it's the only equation that matters, the fact of the matter is for an given acceleration the longer distance an object can travel the higher speed it will reach and therefore have higher Kinetic Energy (½mv²). Shorten the travel path of a strike and reduce it's impact.

You are completely right, but lack a bit of detail. ITF Punching tends to be shortened up, since optimally, Kicks are used at anything but short range. When short range is reached, You switch to forward moving barrages of short Punches. Kicks, on the other hand, are made to reach a longer distance, to balance that out. Ive seen it taught differently to that as well, but when those Punches are made 'long', they tend to be 'reaching' on the end. The Logic is, Kick then Punch. Or, One Kick then lots of Punches. Or anything along those lines.

 

[puunui]

My own taste. My kids agree with you! They believe tkd is a kicking sport and it should stay that way. I understand the way that you feel though. It would probably take away from its individuality. The funny thing is that they are good punchers and use it in competition. In the end they would leave the punching to karate. When they do TKD they want to kick.

At this point in time, you can probably find a tournament or circuit out there that will fit what particular rule set that you favor. There are face punching tournaments, non-face punching, etc. that we do not really need to be making major changes to fit in. Even in the MMA world, there are gi tournaments, no gi, etc. to fit your style of competition.

I like punching too, I have spent a lot of time developing mine, but I prefer focusing on kicking to score points in taekwondo tournaments under the wtf rules. Just my own taste.

 

[mastercole]

For tournaments, it is actually an easy adaptation for Kukkiwon practitioners to use hand strikes, grabs, trips, sweeps, etc. That type is sparring is part of the Kukkiwon curriculum, and has been since before the Kukkiwon existed in the old KTA days. Chayu Macho Kyorugi. Free sparring that allows all Taekwondo techniques, typically in a semi contact format, with no technique allowed toward eyes and neck. It was never taken out of the curriculum.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

For tournaments, it is actually an easy adaptation for Kukkiwon practitioners to use hand strikes, grabs, trips, sweeps, etc. That type is sparring is part of the Kukkiwon curriculum, and has been since before the Kukkiwon existed in the old KTA days. Chayu Macho Kyorugi. Free sparring that allows all Taekwondo techniques, typically in a semi contact format, with no technique allowed toward eyes and neck. It was never taken out of the curriculum.

Im glad some kukkiwon instructors still teach this form of sparring, it sounds beneficial. The couple of guys I know who train kukkiwon tkd (at separate clubs) have never done this form of sparring and have never heard of it. Its a shame its not taught at all kukkiwon clubs.

 

[puunui]

For tournaments, it is actually an easy adaptation for Kukkiwon practitioners to use hand strikes, grabs, trips, sweeps, etc. That type is sparring is part of the Kukkiwon curriculum, and has been since before the Kukkiwon existed in the old KTA days. Chayu Macho Kyorugi. Free sparring that allows all Taekwondo techniques, typically in a semi contact format, with no technique allowed toward eyes and neck. It was never taken out of the curriculum.

Face punching isn't such a big deal. And if you are going to allow that, and take it outside of the wtf competition rules, then we'll simply take it outside of whatever rules that person is comfortable with. You punch our face, we will kick your leg. Hard. After which we will punch your face, as you nurse your charlie horse and wonder what happened to your mobility and power, since you can no longer pivot off that front leg. For most people, neutralizing their ability to pivot or move off their front leg severely limits their ability to put weight behind their blows.

Competition under the WTF rules is just that, a competition under a defined set of rules. It is not a self defense situation. And it is not the only way to spar. Why people get up in arms about it is beyond me. If someone doesn't like it, then they shouldn't do it.

 

[Zenjael]

I've been watching quite a few sparring vids on youtube, both ITF and WTF. Couldn't find anything pitting the two styles against the other.

Has there ever been anything like this? Or maybe open competitions going on today?

I know the scoring is different with the hogu and such... I just thought that with the differences in styles, it could make an interesting matchup.

Interesting, in our area the majority of tournaments held in our area are TKD, and most TKD schools are WTF, and one of the styles which follows its regulations. However, at the NVCC community college a tournament is held about twice a year, alternating between being hosted and following predominantly WTF regulations (in the spring) while another is held using predominantly ITF format. Both tournaments have open invite for the respective other... and to be honest, WTF tends to clear house in the sparring in both tournaments. These tournaments are often also open to people of non-tkd practice, but it never attracts enough from outside schools to call it an open house, especially as it follows its own format for point sparring. It kind of makes sense when the ITF people keep head-hunting, but not scoring, and its just a stylistic impasse. I love the tournaments, not because I've ever seen anybody do particularly well, or anything groundbreaking, but because it lets the MA community come together, in a very friendly manner. A lot of competitions are just that, this is more communal.

 

[chrispillertkd]

b. Heavy contact.

What level of contact do you thin kwould qualify as "heavy" in a World Champoionship? The same as at a local tournament?

Pax,

Chris