Hapkido / Aiki Jujutsu connection?

[AikidoCal]

I don't want to sound if I am bashing Hapikido or Koreans. I want to be respectful of other peoples' arts.

With that said, and understanding and respectful of Paul's point. From what I read and that I have experienced of Korean culture and martial art culture the debate will go on for ever. I think it would be a coop for some Korean Martial Artists to prove the Japanese wrong and say, I told you so. I think for some Japanese that would be something they don't want to hear especially from the Koreans. The Koreans where or still are treated pretty poorly by the Japanese. To have Choi be so close to Takeda as an adopted son would really seen shivers up and down some Japanese. That is similar in effect to the news of the DNA confirming Sally Hemings was Jefferson's long time mistress and she born his offspring. EEKKK!



This is a political and propaganda issue as I see it, really between the Japanese and Koreans, than the origin of an art. The Koreans benefit in these terms if there is a connection. Just as the off-spring of Sally Heming and some African Americans. Who don't benefit is the racists and those in Jefferson's family unwilling to accept that fact and give restitution, besides other things.



It is odd also based on what you said Paul that some Koreans will refute out of Nationalism that Tae Kwon Do isn't greatly based on Shotokan Karate. This is argued all most as much the Aikij. and Hapikido connection. Yet the Japanese, mostly others in the martial arts community TDK is pretty much Shotokan and the Korean's strongly denign it. Just an errand thought.

You know what may be a kick, is that someday it is discovered via science that Koreans are 100% decendents of the Japanese. Or that Japanese are decendents 100% from the Koreans. Both of which are decendents of the Chinese. Boy would that be a hoot.

As far as cultures go, I stick to food, drink and woman. Everything else just adds to the headache:btg:

 

[JanneM]

I think we can agree that Choi was not adopted son of Takeda simply because his name was not Takeda. Chois Japanese name was Yoshida. (Yoshida was one of Takeda sokes top students.)

If you go to the roots of Hapkido and look at hapkiyusul (Yong Sul Kwan) and see the tecnicks Kim dojunim teaches (he is dedicated to teach the art exaclty as Choi dojunim thought it) we can ree resemblense with Daitoryu.

Problem with mainstreem hapkido compared with Daitoryu is that none of the Hapkido pioners was Choi dojunims long lasting students. Like Ji Han Jae for exsample. He had only some years with Choi.
Kim Yung San dojunim was with Choi dojunim for 15 years and he is said to be the only one Choi thought everything he knows.

Now we can be surre that Choi learned something while he was in Japan.
He told that he learned Yawara(he never told anyone that he learned Daitoryu aikijujutsu. Nore he told anyone he learned any whole art). And from the picture he could tell that Takeda Sokakus face. That really does not tell us that he was direct student of Takeda Sokaku but with resemblenses between hapkiyusul and daitoryu aikijujutsu we can be sure that Choi learned some part of Daitoryu (Yawara part).

With Kim dojunim we can see great use of aiki.
His roots lie in Ji Han Jae line Hapkido before he found Choi dojunim. He never practissed anything except hapkido (hapkiyusul).

Where did the use of aiki come from to Choi dojunims teaching?
From who did Choi dojunim learn in Japan?
Why would Choi dojunim keep telling that he learned (and teached) Japanese art eaven it would be mouch easier to say that he got his art from the monks on mountain or that it is secret family art. Japanese people and influences are not now and certainly was not just after the war in big favor in Korea.

Unfortunetly many or perhaps eaven all of my guestions remain unansvered now because Choi dojunim is dead.
I am fortuned enough to got to teached bu Kim dojunim and his students. If you need historical link between daitoryu and hapkido these days (I wonder why you need that...) go and find out about Kim Yung San dojunim.

Peace all!

(I'm sorry if some of my long text seems jibberish. English is not my native language)

 

[howard]

JanneM, I don't believe that it can be substantiated that GM Kim is the only student to whom Choi Young Sool taught "everything he knew". If I'm not mistaken, what GM Kim maintains is that he teaches exactly what he was taught by Choi, not that Choi taught him, and only him, every technique he knew. The same is true of GM Lim (Im) Hyun Soo of the Jungkikwan, who studied directly under Choi for over 20 years. Likewise, I don't believe that GM Lim has ever said that Choi taught him all of the techniques he knew.

I met GM Ji at one of his seminars last month. He was a very humble gentleman, and I was very impressed with him. My teacher and I had a discussion with him about his training under Choi. He was very clear - he said that Choi taught Yawara, not 'Hapkido" as GM Ji defines it. Now before anybody flames me, all I'm doing here is quoting the gentleman directly. I'm not making any judgment about what he teaches or who founded Hapkido.

There are a lot of us who have a historical and intellectual interest in exploring the putative link between Daito Ryu and Choi's art. There are some good discussions going on about this over on Aikido Journal, and there's no reason one can't be resurrected here. My personal interest in this topic is purely intellectual. Based on my own training in Hapkido and the admittedly limited research I've done into Daito Ryu via book, videos and the internet, I believe intuitively that there is a definite overlap between Daito Ryu and Hapkido, but to date that overlap has not been conclusively explained or documented. Nor has it been conclusively refuted by any of those who argue that the entire notion of Choi having trained under Takeda is nonsense. We can only hope that ongoing research will uncover more verifiable data that will prove or disprove the link finally.

btw JanneM, no worries... your English is excellent, far better than my Finnish.

 

[Paul B]

That's it....AC...put the beer on ice,I'll bring the BBQ. Let's at least have some fun while we get a headache.:drinkbeer

 

[JanneM]

Dear Howard.

I am merely a beginner in Hapki arts and so I can only say what has been told to me.

I am very aware that GM Lim has been a student of Choi dojunim for many years adn was (I believe) first to get his 9.dan from Choi. (Kim dojunim was only the third and last)
GM Lim might well been thaught everything Choi knew but what I understund is that Kim Yung San dojunim had a special place with Choi doojunim because he was determend to learn and teahc exaclty the Chois art as Choi teached it.

What GM Ji told you about Choi dojunim teaching Yawara. In my knowledge it is true. Choi otld people that he teaches Yawara (Hapki yu kwon sul). Hapkido was I think GM Ji's invention but Choi used that name also and he's certificates for his top students like Lim and Kim was Hapkido certificates.

Hapkido as we know it today has so many elements added to it and it is made by so many people who had so litle practise with Choi Yong Sul dojunim that it seems totaly different from the art Choi teached and Kim Yung San dojunim teaches today.

To continue tru conversation in here about the past present and the future of hapki art I think we would need glad2bhere to talk with us but unfortunetly he's banned from this site. Glad2bhere has been studying hapki arts for many years and has great knowledge about this stuff from more than one point of viev.

 

[Barrie]

Dear Folks,

Just a correction of fact. DJN Choi appointed 4 9th dans, Chang Chin Il, Lim Hyun Su, Kim Yung Sang, and Lee Yu Su. The latter two were training partners and students of Choi together. They received their 9th dans on the same day, subsequently taught together in the dojang they built at Choi's direction. They are in Choi's records. Gm Lee died in March last year.

I have posted this info several times on different forums, why cant people get it right?

There is a lot of good info on this over on the aikido journal forum; glad2behere (Bruce Sims) is there also making some good inputs.

Kind regards,

Barrie Restall

 

[howard]

Dear Folks,

Just a correction of fact. DJN Choi appointed 4 9th dans, Chang Chin Il, Lim Hyun Su, Kim Yung Sang, and Lee Yu Su. The latter two were training partners and students of Choi together. They received their 9th dans on the same day, subsequently taught together in the dojang they built at Choi's direction. They are in Choi's records. Gm Lee died in March last year.

I have posted this info several times on different forums, why cant people get it right?

Barrie, thanks for the clarification.

Regarding Chang Chin Il, I don't believe he's actively teaching any more, and I'm really irked with myself, because about a year ago several of us at our school were making plans to visit the place where he was teaching in Manhattan (it was a dance studio, of all things). We procrastinated, and never went. And he's since stopped teaching there.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Howard, you make some good points. Both Gm Lim and GM Kim were with DJN Choi longer than most. For any one to publicly say that DJN Choi favored and taught his most valuble material to just themselves sounds like mere positioning for selfish reasons! I do not mean any disrespect to the Young Sul Kwan or GM Kim, I just feel that people should put out the facts and teach DJN Chois Art. DJN Choi's teaching style was unique as I have been told. Maybe it would be a good idea to do up a list of DJN Choi's 8th & 9th Dan's for everyone to see? DJN Choi's most important advice was to train every day not seek rank and title! Sadly we see these pitfalls all the time in Martial Arts. :asian:

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association

 

[JanneM]

i totally agrea with master Miller that we should focus on practising and not on things others do.

 

[Barrie]

Dear Todd,

You infer that the Yong Sul Kwan has not been truthful or factual, an inference I find particularly objectionable given what we have shared with you.

Would you please be specific in your charges so these unsupported slurs can be put to rest.


Barre Restall

 

[shesulsa]

Well, I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone for the brief period of calm we've had here in the Korean forums on Martial Talk. It's truly been a real joy.

Hang on fellas, here comes the next ride ....

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Dear Todd,

You infer that the Yong Sul Kwan has not been truthful or factual, an inference I find particularly objectionable given what we have shared with you.

Would you please be specific in your charges so these unsupported slurs can be put to rest.

Dear Barrie,

Be cautious of saying that I or we are the only ones to teach DJN Choi's art. GM Kim is one of the few 9th dans promoted by DJN Choi, this is enough of an honor without claiming titles that DJN Choi did not give. Please do not take offense I just feel that if DJN Choi would have wanted GM Kim to be Doju Nim he would have given that title when he was alive.

A more interesting topic would be what are some of the drills or excersises that DJN Choi taught? I bet there will be more similarites here than any where else.

I hope this answers your questions. This is my honest opinion and I mean no malice. It would be nice to see DJN Choi's 9th dans get together and talk.

Take care

 

[Barrie]

Dear Todd,

The only claim that DJN Kim makes is that he teaches what Choi taught him. let me repeat so there is no mistake: he teaches what Choi taught him.

He makes no claims that it is "original", "orthodox", "authentic', or that it is different to what Choi taught others. We simply dont know exactly what Choi taught others.

I have just been thru the Jungi Kwan DVDs and they are very good; excellent techniques and well presented. But the curriculum appears to be different in several ways to that taught by DJN Kim. I may e mail you some details.

If you have an issue with Kim's Doju title it is best pursued with the people who conferred it on him, as they may have been more aware of DJN Choi's wishes than people imagine.

Kind regards

Barrie Restall

 

[Mike-IHF]

Guys,

Just when things were nice and quiet LOL!. Anyway I just want to share my opinion on this matter. I have the upmost respect for the Young Sul Kwan, and the Jung Ki Kwan. I have not met or trained with anyone from the Young Sul Kwan, but I have trained with a great instructor from the Jung Ki Kwan. Master D'Aloia. With that said, my deepest opinion is this. And this is do to the past discussions over on Aikido Journal about labels and names for what people learned from Choi. I feel deeply that Ji, learned the same stuff as Kim, or Lim. But I do think because of the short time Ji spent with Choi, and his adding of other things that he created his own monster. The reason I say this is because, after being at our seminar with GM Chang, I realised how closely it really is to Aikijujutsu. Now if Ji wants to call what he learned Yawara, and Kim wants to call it Hapkiyusul, it does not matter. The techniques GM Chang was teaching resembled what I have senn from the Young Sul Kwan videos on the website. Now why is that? I don't really know. Especially at the end of the seminar 1 video, when two of Kim's students did a couple of techniques. That is exactly how we do our basic redirections. The differences that I did see were some of the no hand techniques that Kim was doing. So this is why I have removed myself from these discussions on Aikido journal, because I believe that there is no such thing as labels, are names of styles it is what it is. And if one GM teaches differently from another, I think it has less to do with what that person learned from Choi, and more to do with how, and what that Gm teaches.

Barrie,
I did have one question regarding GM Kim. Iread that he started training in Hapkido in 1960, the same year as My Kuksanim. And it said that he was already a 5th Dan before he started training with Choi. My question is who did he train under? and who did he recieve his 5th Dan from? Thanks.

 

[Barrie]

Dear Michael,

I appreciate your points; unfortunately those of us who have come later are stuck with the labels others have given their styles! I am only interested in their similarities and differences (if any!), and why different masters teach the way they do. Just curious.

DJN Kim did a lot of MA training in early life, mainly Tang So do and boxing, and didnt come to Hapkido until 1967. He trained under Chun Kai Dau at the hapkido Wol kae kwan in Gum Sam, and attained 4th Degree before Chun went to the USA. When Kim met Choi in 1973 he was a 4th Dan, the certificates coming from Ji Han Jae in Seoul. I am not sure if he obtained any further grading in Hapkido as he started training with Choi on 26th December 1973.

I could have the odd detail wrong but that is to the best of my knowledge.

Kind regards,

Barrie

 

[Master Todd Miller]

The only claim that DJN Kim makes is that he teaches what Choi taught him. let me repeat so there is no mistake: he teaches what Choi taught him.

He makes no claims that it is "original", "orthodox", "authentic', or that it is different to what Choi taught others. We simply dont know exactly what Choi taught others.

I have just been thru the Jungi Kwan DVDs and they are very good; excellent techniques and well presented. But the curriculum appears to be different in several ways to that taught by DJN Kim. I may e mail you some details.

I am not suprised that they are different. When you e-mail me about the differences I am curious as to what the YSK teaches for Basic & advanced drills?

If you have an issue with Kim's Doju title it is best pursued with the people who conferred it on him, as they may have been more aware of DJN Choi's wishes than people imagine.

The only issue I have is that DJN Choi's Daughter in law does not have the time in training with DJN Choi to be able to confer a Doju Nim title to anyone.

Kind regards

Barrie Restall

I do have a great deal of respect for GM Kim as he was promoted to 9th Dan by DJN Choi. I think GM Kim would do well by himself and his teacher to loose the Doju Nim title as it was not given by Hapkido's Founder Doju Nim Choi, Yong Sul. If he likes this title and feels he must continue to use it then that is his choice. Just understand that it was Doju Nim Choi's daughter in law not DJN Choi that gave that title to GM Kim!

Take care

 

[Mike-IHF]

Barrie,

Thanks for answering my question. I don't know about the dates, I was just relaying what was on the YSK website. I thaught it said Kim started training in 1960, but maybe I misread it. I'm assuming that the person he studied under (Chun) was a student of Ji's correct?

 

[Barrie]

Dear Mike,

You are correct, Chun Kai Dau was a student of GM Ji. I think he went to the USA in 1970, and stayed. The website history is not correct; I have been interviewing DJN Kim to get the story straight so hopefully it will be corrected in time. I am still checking some details, its a long range project!

Dear Todd,

I will e-mail you in a few days with some details on the basic drills etc.

I cant do much about the Doju thing, its not something I have any influence over! You are entitled to your opinion but you must realise that it is ignorant of a lot of the facts and circumstances around the event. You can find out if you really want to, then you may have a different opinion. The daughter in law and her husband (the second doju) were well aware of their father's wishes regarding succession, who was to be involved and what roles they were to play. They can explain the cultural aspects of the passage of the succession to you.

It is not my place to speak for these people. So you can continue to offer opinions based on ignorance, or you can seek some clarification from those who were there at the time. Up to you.

I am sure DJN Kim will be happy to answer any of your questions about his legitimacy when you visit. If I am present I will make sure he addresses the issue for you.

Take care

Kind regards,

Barrie Restall

 

[Mike-IHF]

Barrie,

Thanks for the reply. and clarification on the website info. My question now would be this, and again no disrespect to Kim, I'm just throwing ideas out. Do you think that Kim teaches some techniques that might not have come directly from Choi, but from his training under Ji's student? I ask this because usually old asian masters/grandmasters that studied more than one art, usually do not throw away their previous training. I ask this because I asked alot of questions to GM Chang during our seminar about his lineage, and found out more detailed information. But he told me that he sticks to the original stuff that he learned, and not so much the material in the late 60's from Myung Jae-Nam. I don't want to get to much into this discussion since I swore that I would stay away from it. But basically is relation to Myung, was more of a organizational thing, than material. But anyway, look forward to your reply. Thanks.

 

[howard]

The only claim that DJN Kim makes is that he teaches what Choi taught him. let me repeat so there is no mistake: he teaches what Choi taught him.

He makes no claims that it is "original", "orthodox", "authentic', or that it is different to what Choi taught others. We simply dont know exactly what Choi taught others...

Barrie, I believe we can say exactly the same thing about GM Lim: he says that he teaches exactly what Choi taught him, as faithfully as he can. I acknowledge that the jackets to the Jungkikwan vids say "orthodox martial arts Hapkido textbook" on them, but I don't believe that this is intended to imply that Jungki Hapkido is the only "orthodox" style out there, nor to disparage any other style. Rather, I interpret this to mean exactly what you've said about DJN Kim: that Jungki Hapkido is exactly what Choi taught to GM Lim. I am not aware of GM Lim ever having claimed that Jungki Hapkido is the only true style of the art, or anything of the sort. He simply isn't like that.

It seems to me that both gentlemen (Kim and Lim) are quite similar in how they represent their arts, and their relationship to Choi, to the public. My guess would be that that is due to Choi's positive influence on both of them.