Handshake Attacks, Gift in Return, Gift of Destiny, Broken Gift

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - Technical Discussion' started by Dan G, Feb 10, 2006.

  1. Dan G

    Dan G Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London UK
    I have been at a loss ever since I started kenpo to understand why a handshake, "crushing" or otherwise could constitute an attack worth training against. Even though I like the Gift techniques themselves I still have nagging doubts about the method of initiating them. Gift in Return in particular seems like a very odd thing to do against a handshake. Basically, great techniques, but unusual or absent set up strike for the control manipulation and very wierd attacks to respond to...

    Looking through a Chin Na book and reading up on fingerlocks got me thinking of an explanation that made some sense to me.

    Here goes:

    If the attacker puts a thumb lock on with the intention of bringing the defender to their knees (in a similar vertical plane of motion to the attack in Bow of Compulsion) an appropriate counter could be Gift in Return.

    If the attacker puts on a thumblock which turns the defenders right hand counterclockwise to a palm down position (defender's viewpoint) (with the possible intent of stepping past the defender and feeding the defenders arm behind their back into a hammerlock as per the attack in Locked Wing) then one natural response for the defender is to turn their body clockwise setting up for the elbow break to the attacker in Broken Gift.

    If the attacker puts on a thumblock which turns the defenders right hand clockwise to a palm up position (defender's viewpoint) (with the intent of raising the defender's hand and perhaps putting on a lock by turning the defender and wrapping the arm around the defender's own neck, or overbalancing him) then the defender's arm is forced into a raised and flexed position, and the attacker's body positioned, for the elbow strike in Gift of Destiny.

    I've played with these a little and they seem to work for me, but I don't have enough knowledge of thumblocks/fingerlocks to put on the attacks very well, so I don't know if the Gift techniques would be effective counters against an expertly applied thumblock...

    I'd be really interested to hear the thoughts of kenpo practitioners with Hawaian jujitsu or Chin-Na experience, and any tips would be really welcome.

    If anyone has any other thoughts on the handshake attacks I'd also be really interested to hear their opinions.

    Respectfully

    Dan
     
  2. Ceicei

    Ceicei Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    6,776
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Utah
    I, too, at first thought the Kenpo handshake techniques were odd. Even after some years of studying Kenpo, I continued to feel that way. It was not until I started taking up Judo/Danzan JuJitsu recently that these techniques started making sense to me.

    I suppose initially, when learning techniques, we tend to have them set up in a static way (which generally is put in an unrealistic manner, until we learn to become more adaptive/dynamic with experience and using the what-if approach). I learned a great deal about wrist/finger locks that finally started making more sense of how Kenpo works. In fact, I now look at Kenpo with new eyes, and realized then that Mr. Ed Parker's experience and background in creating these techniques went way beyond than what appeared on the surface and the first few layers. He is a genius in many ways.

    There is a lot more than just thumblocks as potential attacks. There is a whole host of other types of attacks, while not typical of an average fighter, are definitely possible.

    One thing that caused me to ponder is the possibility that since Mr. Ed Parker grew up on Hawaiian islands (where many of the people practice FMA and JuJitsu/JuJutsu styles), whether these scenarios he created are based on attackers employing these types of knowledge not commonly found with the mainland attackers. However, he has lived long enough in Utah and California as well as travelled around extensively as a bodyguard; he evidently would not focus too extensively with the cultural differences of attackers.

    Your thread holds great interest for me as I am currently exploring these ideas. I am delighted to know there is someone else out there looking into this too.

    Before I continue on with some more of my thoughts, I would like to know if you have any experience with a grappling style, especially one that focuses a lot with joint locks?

    - Ceicei
     
  3. Dan G

    Dan G Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London UK
    I did about a year and a half or so of Tomiki Aikido about 10 years ago, and a little bit of Iwama-ryu Aikido about 5 years ago.

    I am very interested to hear from someone with Danzan-ryu experience - if I don't understand something you're explaining I'll definitely ask! Thanks for posting!

    Regards

    Dan
     
  4. Ray

    Ray Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    1,391
    Likes Received:
    53
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Creston, IA
    I don't know where the handshake can go, in terms of grappling, but I have seen the cheap shot: "Hey, man, I'm sorry" {extends hand for handshake, grasps hand of other person and throws left sucker punch to other person's face}.
     
  5. Brian Jones

    Brian Jones Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2003
    Messages:
    263
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Columbus, Oh
    Its not just the handshake. Its a handshake with a a "sucker punch" typs of scenario. Or use some imaginaation. Someone grabs your wrist and you countergrab. This puts you virtually in the same posistion as a handshake

    Brian Jones
     
  6. Martial Tucker

    Martial Tucker Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 31, 2004
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Sweet Home, Chicago
    I'm a TKD practitioner, so I'm not going to delve into the Kempo responses to
    an unfriendly handshake, but as for why you should train a bit for it, I will tell you that here in Chicago, a very popular means of mugging people a while back was to approach a stranger with your hand extended, acting as if you were approaching an old friend that you haven't seen in years. The vast majority of people that you do this to will blindly just stick their hand out and accept your handshake while they try to figure out who the hell you are, and why they can't remember you. As soon as the attacker has your hand (the dominant hand for most people) you are very vulnerable to a sucker punch, as stated earlier, or a 2nd attacker may then approach from behind.


    In other words, don't blow this defense off as trivial.
     
  7. Dan G

    Dan G Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London UK
    Thanks, that is really interesting, and pretty sneaky psychology! The explanation (and that of Ray and Brian Jones) makes sense as well.

    I wonder how many types of sucker attack are possible from the handshake. It would be interesting to hear opinions and experiences from people.

    Regards

    Dan
     
  8. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    20,311
    Likes Received:
    539
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    NH
    Wow. I never knew that. Great info.

    I'm curious...when I moved to the city to attend college (way back when), my mom cautioned me against bringing my rings to school. She was worried that a mugger might take them off my hand.

    I haven't trained on these techniques. For you all that have...what do you think? If a mugger tried to grab (say) your class ring, would this technique work against that kind of move?

    Thanks,
    Carol
     
  9. Sam

    Sam Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2005
    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    98
    my instructor told me that a possible use for a handshake technique is the person starts crushing your hand.

    The only handshake technique I know is called crane leap.
     
  10. Dan G

    Dan G Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London UK
    I am not familiar with the Tracy techniques, and I'd be interested to learn how the technique is executed? I am guessing that with a name like Crane Leap there is a kick to the attacker's knee involved...

    Dan
     
  11. Sam

    Sam Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2005
    Messages:
    2,269
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    98
    This is a pruple belt technique at my studio.

    I copied this from my personal notes.

    Crane Leap
    For a handshake. Grab their arm at about the elbow with your left hand. Lift your left leg up, then pull their arm in towards you as you knee them in the groin with your right leg. (like a chicken kick) Right sidekick to right their knee as they fall. Then turn and softbow chop to the back of the neck with your left hand.
     
  12. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,556
    Likes Received:
    429
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    It's true that it can be a set-up for a sucker punch. It's also a common demo. move because its sets up locks so well.

    You'll put yourself in the handshake position if your opponent has a knife or club--you'll wrap your hand about his in (more-or-less) that position. Replace that hand extending for a shake with a hand stabbing with a knife; get off-line and grab with your right hand. Depending on how exactly you do this, you may end up in handshake position.
     
  13. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Messages:
    4,195
    Likes Received:
    132
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Southern California
    Not really Dan. Although a defense against a handshake is a viable defense to have, the techniques are multi-faceted. Think of them as being, in addition to a handshake, as a cross grab to the wrist, and a whole new set of possibilities will open to you from an offensive and defensive perspective. Also consider they are seizing from the flank as well as the front. It is the beginning of Dan:) Zan Ryu control manipulation responses.

    Start with learning the defenses inherent in "Gift of Destruction." That in itself will really open your eyes, and you will be getting that soon.
     
  14. Dan G

    Dan G Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2004
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London UK
    Thankyou! That gives me lots of food for thought.
    I've had a very quick look (I think) at the tweaks to Gift of Destruction that you mention, and will hopefully get to see more shortly. I'm becoming increasingly interested in the control manipualtion aspects of the art at present, and from what I saw briefly I am definitely looking forward to working on it further.

    Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. When I started the thread I should have made a point of asking for FMA viewpoints as well as it always brings out useful info. My bad, thanks for contributing anyway!

    Dan:asian:
     
  15. Big Don

    Big Don Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,551
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Sanger CA
    Having been in a few barfights, (misspent youth... ;) )I could see Gift of Destruction and Broken Gift as offensive rather than defensive. Scenario: In a bar you know you are about to be in a fight, you walk to your opponent, right hand extended and offer to buy him a beer, he takes your hand, and you execute. But, that could just be my bad attitude...
     
  16. kenpofighter

    kenpofighter Green Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Atlanta Ga, USA
    I agree with Martial Tucke. I have talked to some kenpo guys from Chicago and they told me it was very common to see a friendly handshake turn into an attack.

    I was always taught that Gift in Return was a good defence for a "downward crushing" handshake. Broken Gift maybe for a sucker punch geting ready to happen, and Gift of Destruction is a good teck. for someone pulling you into a punch or something else.
     
  17. CoryKS

    CoryKS Senior Master

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Messages:
    4,403
    Likes Received:
    182
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    Olathe, KS
    Well, I have been the recipient of a dishonorable handshake, and I wish I had had these techniques then. It uses the victims sense of decency against him because if you refuse the offer, you look like a jerk. "Hey, no hard feelings. What, you won't shake my hand?" Often, refusal will lead to further escalation because now you've given offense.

    Haven't encountered one of these for a long time; it seems to be one of those things that a certain breed of teenager finds amusing. Hurts like hell, though.
     
  18. michaeledward

    michaeledward Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2003
    Messages:
    6,063
    Likes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    158
    I think that the gift techniques are perhaps even more important for persons of smaller stature. A grasping hand shake ~ seen from the third person point of view ~ does not appear to be very threatening. Anybody looking at a punch being thrown, knows who is being aggressive. With a handshake, it doesn't necessarily appear aggresive.

    If a bad guy wants to create compliance, an unfriendly handshake can lend itself in that direction without appearing so.

    I think the same thing with 'Beggins Hands'. I don't see this as a reasonable attack on a bigger person. But, I could see the two handed grab as a means of controlling a smaller person. Specifically, I could see a dispute between a couple escalating in a public place, where the larger person takes hold of the wrists of the smaller person and turns. From the third person point of view, it would appear that one is just trying to calm down the other.

    Some grabs are obvioulsy aggressive ... but the handshakes don't appear that way. In the First Person point of view, however, the level of hostility can be much more apparent.
     
  19. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    3,215
    Likes Received:
    379
    Trophy Points:
    143
    As stated previously. In the western culture, handshakes have an almost pavlovian response to them. We see a hand extended in a handshake and we do one of two things. 1) Look down at the extended hand, even if we fight the conditioning to just shake it since it is rude not to shake hands with someone, which leads us open to a sucker punch and 2) we look down at the extended hand and shake it, which again leaves us open to a sucker punch.

    As a side note, most people are semi aware of their personal space and someone intruding in on it. What better way to bypass into their space and lower their guard for a split second than with a universally "friendly" gesture.
     
  20. Jim Hanna

    Jim Hanna Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    May 8, 2006
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    That's what I call understanding the attack. I teach the same thing. I also show my students "how" to shake hands, i.e. with the left leg forward and the right hand extended. If someone extends their left hand then be ready (unless, of course, they don't have a good right hand).

    Jim
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

gift in return kenpo