Groin Kicks

Discussion in 'Tang Soo Do' started by tsdclaflin, Jul 11, 2012.

  1. tsdclaflin

    tsdclaflin Green Belt

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    Am I the only TSD instructor that teaches the groin kick?

    I was not taught it but it is a good kick and if I expect my students to be able to deploy it in a self-defense situation then they should practice it in class.

    What do you think?
     
  2. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    What's different between a front kick targeting the groin and a groin kick?
     
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  3. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Personally, I think the groin kick is overrated. I don't think it's nearly as effective as Hollywood would have us believe. Ive seen too many people, and been kicked too many times, to think of it as anything other than a good way to piss someone off.

    Personally, I'd be more inclined to strike to the knee, or the femoral nerve. Not the sack.
     
  4. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Absolutely. Thats My experience also.
     
  5. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    The groin kick when done correctly incorporates the pelvic bone which when hit with focus can be very debilitating.
    A groin kick should never be done alone, but followed with a high strike as their head comes forward.......... which it will.

    It is a kick of opportunity, if you miss that opportunity THEN yes, you have a very bad situation now.........
     
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  6. Cirdan

    Cirdan Senior Master

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    Not a TSDist, but the way I do it in Wado, the groin kick is an upward snap kick striking with the instep of the foot. Wheras a front kick wold require you to lift your knee more and strike in a more straight foreward motion inpacting with the ball of your foot.

    It is one of the first kick we teach along with the front kick and the roundhouse.
     
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  7. Instructor

    Instructor Master Black Belt

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    I am obviously not a Tang Soo Do practitioner, however for what it's worth in Hapkido we don't consider groin attacks to be an attack of the genitals. Rather we are trying to shatter the pelvic arch:

    http://www.hapkido-online.com/breakaways.html

    You can see a graphic below the heading 'down and strike'.
     
  8. tsdclaflin

    tsdclaflin Green Belt

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    Thanks Wado and Hapkido. You made my point. For some reason, in TSD we have under-rated the upward snap of a groin kick. While living in MT, I could only compete in "open" tournaments where groin shots scored. My Kenpo brothers used the kick very effectively and it got me to thinking.

    Like any other kick, it can fail. But it is easy to teach and easy to practice and when done correctly will stop 80% of men and many women.

    I thought I would just "stir the pot" and get my TSD family to thinking....

    Thanks everyone for your thoughts and your time.

    Tang Soo!
     
  9. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    In the other hand I've seen many times a groing kick send the ofender to the ground, in fact one time I use one, I remeber my instep hiting precisely and squarely the other guy in the nuts and he went down in tears. I have taken some kicks to the jewels and believe it hurts like hell.

    Manny
     
  10. DennisBreene

    DennisBreene 3rd Black Belt

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    In my training, groin strikes of all types where taught. Particularly in self defense, the more techniques at your disposal the better. In addition, in traditional one-step-sparing our approach was slightly less traditional. We never learned one step technique number 1,2,3....etc. We were told the attack and the first defensive technique and then followed with techniques that were appropriate given the resultant position of the attacker and defender. We informally called these "If you want to's" after our master's teaching style; which was to demonstrate an initial defense and counter and then a series of techniques based on targets of opportunity, which he always preceded with "if you want to". I believe that this form of training instilled more of a conditioned and reflexive response to an attack with smooth follow through on a series of counter attacks. I've always wondered if I would have more trouble reacting if I had to remember what technique number 4 was rather than simply responding to the attack as it unfolded.

    Sorry if that wandered away from the discussion of groin kicks. I believe that no single technique is without merit. You never know what opportunity will present itself.

    Dennis
     
  11. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I would also add that the bladder was the actual target in Okinawan karate much of the time rather than the groin or testes. You damage the bladder by going through the pelvic bone, and this could very well be a fatal blow in the 19th century without the modern medical procedures available now.

    In fact, there is a story, apocryphal or not, out there about Ryu Ryu Ko, the Chinese teacher of Kanryo Higaonna/Higashionna, where he killed a student of his with a kick to the bladder area.

    But surely we've all been nailed in the nads before? I've been blasted with one before unintentionally in sparring and it completely took me out. Very painful... nauseatingly so in fact. I think the groin is a good target to train to hit.
     
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  12. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, I fully agree.
     
  13. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    As a pain-target or even a simple target in and of itself, the groin is unreliable. How many times have you been hit there and it had little or no effect?

    If you can rely on the strike penetrating through and shattering the pelvis or damaging the bladder -- sure. But even though I've got confidence in my ability to drive the kick through, it's still not in my arsenal of reliable techniques.
     
  14. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I'm probably not a good test for evidence of efficacy one way or another as I only have anecdotal stories of my own. I'll only say this. I've been hit hard there once and yes I was incapacitated. In high school I was in the bottom of a football pile up and someone squeezed my junk hard to get me to let go of the ball. It worked.
    This is something we specifically train for in my brand of karate. Will it ultimately work and be 'reliable'? Dunno. I've never had to kick someone and try to damage their bladder for real. We do kick a lot of targets and heavy bags and we use the Redman training suit more than a few times a year to let everyone get the experience of actually hitting a live, aggressive attacker. I don't know how else to train to make such a kick 'reliable'.

    I should also add that it's only one more tool to use. Certainly I don't advocate the one bullet in the chamber idea.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2012
  15. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Out of necessity I have used the groin kick a number of time"s with great success. We train two ways, one with the ball of the foot, with a hard snapping motion. The other with the heel of the foot, with the toes pointing up. The heel kick is done with a hard thrusting motion.
    I have found many parts of the body to be unreliable or unresponsive to pain. In my mind it ain't over until it's over, and until then I will use whatever I can to accomplish my objective "win". Some targets like the knee will cause much damage, as seen in many football games, and is without question a great target area to hit. The groin as a single hit will allow the aggressor time to recover if not placed well, so the secret is to never rely on a one technique strategy, but to capitalize on the reaction accomplished by any strike.

    Side note, I have seen people go down while wearing a groin protector, and in Okinawa seen sensei take full hard shots to the groin area with no effect. "Not a parlor trick, but for real".
     
  16. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think the best way to defend against something is to know how to attack with it. :)
     
  17. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    One time doing kyorugy I got a snap kick to the tip of the pènis, if I recall well the toe of my partner hit me like a whip in the tip of my penis and pain went to the tip of the penis trough the entire penis to the kidney, Oh boy and it was just a slap I went to the floor on tears and need some time to recoery, my master thought the kick bas on the balls but it 3was actuali the tip of the penis and the pain got trough to the kidney.

    And... believe nobody wants to been caught in the nuts with a hit or kick.
    Manny
     
  18. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Ive been stomp kicked square in the middle of the groin (Poor Balance on the other persons part), hitting a little bit of everything. It was uncomfortable, but not only was it not debilitating, but it subsided after 45ish seconds. Ive also been kneed, and it was about as effective (or not).

    Now, Im not calling the strike ineffective. Im calling it utterly unreliable.
     
  19. DennisBreene

    DennisBreene 3rd Black Belt

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    Having been the recipient of groin kicks while wearing a cup, I can tell you they only offer partial protection. I attempted to do some research via medical sites on pelvic fractures. I am curious as to how much force would be required to fracture the pubic arch and injure the bladder. Unfortunately I could not find any studies where this issue was directly tested but I think the cause of such fractures in the real world is helpful. It seems the majority are from car and motorcycle accidents and pubic fractures seem to be less common than other areas of the pelvis. Partially because of its relatively protected location. My impression was that the blunt force trauma fractures were the result of fairly severe impact and I suspect that kicking and fracturing the pubic arch would be relatively difficult, both from a force and accuracy perspective. I suspect many of us would not have the requisite skill to accomplish such a level of trauma. Fortunately, causing crippling pain to the gonads is much less difficult and a viable target of opportunity in the right situation. Dennis
     
  20. MaxRob

    MaxRob Orange Belt

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    I Agree over many years of studying self defense , those conditioned or with high pain threshold can in fact use once hit there and overcome it counterstrike very effectively and with surprise!
     

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