Grasp of Death & Grip of Death

[Doc]

"Any technique that relies on pain to work is doomed to fail." - Ed Parker

Question; what happens if the pinch doesn't work?

A question you should answer now and not later.

 

[jfarnsworth]

I execute this as a thumb "jab" to the hollow of the knee. As their knee drops I don't lose anytime when bringing my arm up to secure the arm bar/lock.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
I execute this as a thumb "jab" to the hollow of the knee. As their knee drops I don't lose anytime when bringing my arm up to secure the arm bar/lock.

Well sir, I could repeat my question but I think that it is obvious it hasn't been addressed. What bothers me is the "assumption" this will automatically work. Finding the "sweet spot" under the stress of attack is not easy and this particular "point" is more difficult than most.

What happens when ....

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Doc
What bothers me is the "assumption" this will automatically work. Finding the "sweet spot" under the stress of attack is not easy and this particular "point" is more difficult than most.

What happens when ....

Agreed! :asian: This is why I don't attempt to use the "pinch or bite". The thumb jab (as I call it) has always worked for me personally. I'm much too small to hope that I can get my hand in such a position to "find" the right spot.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Agreed! :asian: This is why I don't attempt to use the "pinch or bite". The thumb jab (as I call it) has always worked for me personally. I'm much too small to hope that I can get my hand in such a position to "find" the right spot.

Your honor, could you please direct the witness to answer the question?

You are placing your actual survival on this "thumb jab" to the back of the knee, while someone has you in a position that has the potential to cause your death.

I repeat: What happens when it doesn't work? This has to be a consideration.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Doc
Your honor, could you please direct the witness to answer the question?

Ok, now I see where your going with this. It's my mistake I thought that you were speaking with someone else. :asian:

As of this present time I personally have never been attacked on the street in this type of situation. Only in a classroom situation have I been through this technique. The thumb jab has always worked for me. By placing my thumb in the hollow of the knee and driving it downward or downward diagonal (depending on position).

Now if I were to say IF I had to use this in street situation I'd probably strike the groin from behind with my left hand instead. Using an open palm face up or a reverse hammerfist. If this didn't work then at this point I would try a sacrifice throw by using the attacker as my breakfall. This is by still counter grabbing their right wrist with my right hand, putting my hand in the groin, then throwing towards my back landing on the attacker. Since I believe you stated somewhere on here you wrestled previously I consider this a modified "Peterson Roll". :asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Ok, now I see where your going with this. It's my mistake I thought that you were speaking with someone else. :asian:

As of this present time I personally have never been attacked on the street in this type of situation. Only in a classroom situation have I been through this technique. The thumb jab has always worked for me. By placing my thumb in the hollow of the knee and driving it downward or downward diagonal (depending on position).

Now if I were to say IF I had to use this in street situation I'd probably strike the groin from behind with my left hand instead. Using an open palm face up or a reverse hammerfist. If this didn't work then at this point I would try a sacrifice throw by using the attacker as my breakfall. This is by still counter grabbing their right wrist with my right hand, putting my hand in the groin, then throwing towards my back landing on the attacker. Since I believe you stated somewhere on here you wrestled previously I consider this a modified "Peterson Roll". :asian:

So I guess you would use a grappling counter to a grapple assault.

"If you get in the water with a shark, he'll bite you no matter how good a swimmer you are." - Ed Parker

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Doc
"If you get in the water with a shark, he'll bite you no matter how good a swimmer you are." - Ed Parker

Sir, I am only as good as my abilities will let me be. Anything I put up on this board is by personal experience and thought. I try not to post about anything I don't know and talk tough about it. I'm just not that way. I'm a guy trying to struggle to become a better marital artist. :asian:

If I may ask what would you suggest for this scenario?:asian: :asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by jfarnsworth
Sir, I am only as good as my abilities will let me be. Anything I put up on this board is by personal experience and thought. I try not to post about anything I don't know and talk tough about it. I'm just not that way. I'm a guy trying to struggle to become a better marital artist. :asian:

Of course you are and I am only trying to make you think, nothing more. My point to ponder is this: If your ultimate solution is to resort to a "grappling counter," when someone is attempting to take you down, you have to consider he may be the shark whose water you're getting into.

The interpretation of this technique I was taught is completely different from anything I've seen others do. Mr. Parker worked on body mechanics to preclude the takedown through Positive Body Posture and Anatomical Restrictive Body Positioning that we also used in law enforcemnt scenarios. We addressed more of the takedown in "Grip of Death" but still different.

 

[molson]

Okay Doc now that you have grilled Jason, but you stilled didn't answer his question. What is the answer to your own question. Jason at least deserves and an answer since you tried to make him look bad.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by molson
Okay Doc now that you have grilled Jason, but you stilled didn't answer his question. What is the answer to your own question. Jason at least deserves and an answer since you tried to make him look bad.

As much as I appreciate your third party interpretation of the interaction, ultimately I think Jason should be the one to decide if "I was trying to make him look bad."

That being said, I always thought as a teacher, (which I am in Kenpo as well as college) is supposed to solicit thought in students, not just throw out information with no regard to whether they are actually learning something. These exchanges force students to examine their positions, justify them through self examination and occasional discovery. Most posters know this is my "style" of interaction and I'm sorry you misinterpreted it. I would think as a 2nd black in Kenpo perhaps you could assist in the process and propose and answer yourself.

One final note: If you think I was trying to make Jason look bad, you would definitely not have liked taking serious lessons from Ed Parker.

By the way I did answer MY questions.

 

[Michael Billings]

Doc,

That aside, I really liked the "Shark" analogy. I had not heard it since the mid 80's and it brought a smile to my face. Sincerely, Thanks!!

I was thinking the same thing actually, but did not think of the analogy. We never Box a boxer, try to grapple with a grappler, or out kick a kicker. It is not because we cannot ... it is because it is because we know better. If not then we are not using the best weapon we have! Our brain! This is just not a smart fight.

Back to Grasp of Death -

THE PROBLEM: Striking to the groin, pinching the inside of the leg, or utilizing the "horse bite" (yes I can seperate muscle tissue there, before anyone asks) which causes the opponent to bend forward: What is wrong with this picture? Their arm is still around your neck and you are going down with their weight on your back or neck. [Doc, is this "negative body posture?]

THE REMEDY: The remedy built into the technique is the simultaineous right leg buckle with your left knee, either in a right close kneel as you step forward with your right leg (my favorite), or the ideal - the same buckle utilizing a right wide kneel stance, while you strke with the left hand. Don't forget the turning of the head, anchoring the elbow after your right arm grabs their right wrist. We still have to breath.

The simultaineous reactions from the groin, inner thigh attack and the buckle cause more of a buckling down and back, opening targets to ideal or variable response patterns. [Doc, would this opening be creating positive body posture?]

Wheeeee!!! Then it gets interesting with all sorts of strikes, or several different Contact Manipulations (if you don't like the Crossing Talons arm bar there are many others.)

The main thing I want is their weight off my neck and back. The technique is designed to immediatly alleviate this and allow completion of the Ideal, or it opens you to Variable Expansion as your level of expertise allows.

There, I gave an answer ... it may not be Docs, but it is an answer. Think of answers as starting points, now see where YOU take it. Remember, the Ideal Phase works!!! For all the techniques! If it does not, maybe you need to search out an instructor with a little more depth of understanding. Lord knows, not me ... I am talking about people like Dennis Conatser, Ron Chapel, Bob Liles, John Sepulveda, Sibok Tom Kelly, Paul Mills, Mike Pick, Bryan Hawkins, Tommy Burks etc. I remain a student, maybe a little more advanced, but still a very serious student. Hopefully for the rest of my life.

By the way, Life is too short for this sniping and beating around the bush. Ask the question, accept the answer or don't! Give the answer, or don't. It is OK to say, "You are not my student and I am not giving this stuff away." We all know that is how most of the "Seniors", and "New Generation of Seniors" earn a living. But hey, go ahead and say it. Tell us when the next seminar is you are teaching. We would love to attend and support you that way, even if we can't afford the trips to become a direct student, or if we have loyalty to our current instructors which will not allow us to switch horses in mid stream.

Respectfully (with a little ironical tilt on the end),

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Doc
...ultimately I think Jason should be the one to decide if "I was trying to make him look bad."

I didn't take any of Dr. Chapel's posts as a negative towards me at all. I believe he was trying to make me think for myself and come up with my own answers instead of just handing out info.. Thanks for the concern but I will still be looking into the answers he may have been looking for.:asian:





p.s. Kenpodoc I sent you a private message.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

Back to Grasp of Death -

THE PROBLEM: Striking to the groin, pinching the inside of the leg, or utilizing the "horse bite" (yes I can seperate muscle tissue there, before anyone asks) which causes the opponent to bend forward: What is wrong with this picture? Their arm is still around your neck and you are going down with their weight on your back or neck. [Doc, is this "negative body posture?]

Yes, for you if you allow him to get you there. Positive for him.

THE REMEDY: The remedy built into the technique is the simultaineous right leg buckle with your left knee, either in a right close kneel as you step forward with your right leg (my favorite), or the ideal - the same buckle utilizing a right wide kneel stance, while you strke with the left hand. Don't forget the turning of the head, anchoring the elbow after your right arm grabs their right wrist. We still have to
breath.

I'm afraid that is not what I worked on with The Kenpo Kahuna. I told you the philosophy is completely different.

The simultaineous reactions from the groin, inner thigh attack and the buckle cause more of a buckling down and back, opening targets to ideal or variable response patterns. [Doc, would this opening be creating positive body posture?]

The methodology you describe is not capable of creating Positive Body Posture because of the way the body's are entwined creating "Paired Rythm."

Wheeeee!!! Then it gets interesting with all sorts of strikes, or several different Contact Manipulations (if you don't like the Crossing Talons arm bar there are many others.)

You are having waaaay tooo much fun.

The main thing I want is their weight off my neck and back. The technique is designed to immediatly alleviate this and allow completion of the Ideal, or it opens you to Variable Expansion as your level of expertise allows.

Good "Motion-Speak." How ever still dependent on an application of pain therefore doomed to inevitable failure but can work on many ocassions.

There, I gave an answer ... it may not be Docs, but it is an answer. Think of answers as starting points, now see where YOU take it. Remember, the Ideal Phase works!!! For all the techniques!

Absolutely right.

If it does not, maybe you need to search out an instructor with a little more depth of understanding.

Right again. If your teacher cannot give you something that works you both are in trouble.

By the way, Life is too short for this sniping and beating around the bush. Ask the question, accept the answer or don't!

Many don't want to be seen as not having the answer, especially a 3rd black.

Give the answer, or don't. It is OK to say, "You are not my student and I am not giving this stuff away." We all know that is how most of the "Seniors", and "New Generation of Seniors" earn a living.

I wish I did make a living. Anyway I always have answers for those that will really listen. But I must admit when someone snipes me to answer someone elses question so they can get the answer because they won't ask for themselves, I balk a bit.

For the record Jason is already working on the answer that I provided him. We will work it out.

Any questions? Keep in mind most work from "motion" concepts, and I do not. I was taught to work from an "Anatomical Philosophy" which is completely different and negates most of the conceptual leanings of the commercial Kenpo.

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Doc
For the record Jason is already working on the answer that I provided him. We will work it out.

Sir,
I thank for that as well. It's giving me a little trouble and need just a little more time to get the "feel" of what your describing. It's kind of hard without an actual partner my size to be working on.:asian: I'm working on it though.