Gradings for Ba gua?

[qi-tah]

Hi all;

I know it's not common for schools that teach internal styles, but our school has gradings for tai chi and ba gua. Not many, just 4 different levels, all based on international Wushu grading scores apparently. So for Entrance Dan you need an overall score of 7.25, 1st Dan you need 7.75, 2nd Dan you need 8.25 and 3rd Dan you need 8.75. My question is, does anyone know how these scores are arrived at? I have no idea and to tell the truth, i'm a bit reluctant about asking my teacher 'cause i'm not sure that i agree with some of the outcomes. I mean, at my last grading i was **** scared of screwing up my 1st Dan form and ended up aceing it with a score of 8.1, but then when my freind buggered up his 2nd Dan form he still scraped in with a score of 8.25. So perhaps there is some degree of difficulty involved, and it's not just a straight deduction from 10 for every boo-boo you make? I have to say, i'm wary now about how to set myself for my 2nd Dan exam, seeing just how sloppy you can be and still pass. Maybe it was cause he's been at the school for forever and they just thought what the hell, but how can you do that with 5 different judges? I guess i just have to put it all out of my mind and concentrate on polishing my Lao ba zhang as best i can.
Anyone else do gradings for internal arts? Or not... what do you think of the concept?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have trained a few CMA styles over the years mostly internal styles and none of them have ever had a grading system. Although the Chinese government is pushing the Wushu grading system on just about everything they can these days.

As to what I think about a grading system, I don't think much of it at all actually and I am not a big fan of it either, but to each his own I guess.

It is not traditional and as far as CMA goes I tend to be rather traditional.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I use a grading system for bagua. It was created by my teacher and seems to do the job. There are five grades with cool names and associated sash colours. Novice (black), Initiate (blue), Acolyte (white), Adept (red), and Master (black again). The colour cycle is supposed to represent the phases of the day - pre-dawn, dawn, noon, dusk, night. It serves its purpose (as an indicator of what a student has already learned) but isn't that important.

I think when quantitative scores are involved too much pressure is created. Knowing that you need 7.75 to pass a test and then knowing during a test that you messed something up is going to make things difficult.

 

[Nobody]

A grading system really this must be one of the Wu Shu schools of bagua.

 

[qi-tah]

A grading system really this must be one of the Wu Shu schools of bagua.

Our school teaches wushu, certainly (amongst other things), and it's a wushu grading system, i just don't know how that translates to judging a demonstration of ba gua. What i mean is, do the judges sit down with a list of things that you can **** up on, or a list of requirements that you have to fulfill? How much does martial intent or spirit enter into it? I can't help wondering about this stuff even if i come to the conclusion that it's probably a good idea not to know too much- as Steel Tiger says, it could add to the pressure and take yr focus away from what is important (ie. feeling yr way into the walking, postures and changes until you stomp them everytime, in fact, until you no longer need to try to stomp them!)

I actually don't mind the gradings that much as it gives me the chance to really have a good hard look at the forms i need to demonstrate - the only two gradings i've had i've experienced pretty major breakthroughs in the weeks before grading. I guess it's just to be taken a bit of a prod in the backside to get those basics right. I wish tho that the grading could mean some kind of feedback for me as well - at the moment i can't really tell how i'm going by my Dan level, and my teacher is fairly liberal with the criticism (constructive of course) but sparing with the praise... i guess he is a traditionalist in some ways!

Forgive my ignorence Xue Sheng, but how does the Chinese Govt. push the wushu grading system onto private schools? (Carrot or stick?) Is that a part of wushu's push to be part of the Olympics? Could it apply to a overseas school who's master has strong links with Beijing?

 

[Xue Sheng]

A grading system really this must be one of the Wu Shu schools of bagua.

Not necessarily

 

[Nobody]

Actually though i come from a very traditional school, i can think of how it would be of assistance, but usually in a point based system it is more about how you look not what is need for hitting with fa jing or what is the correct body mechanics for striking heavy or light.

This said i would define my questions to the instructor in some way like this so than you would have a ground to walk on when you took the test.

Is there a natural measure for how far from the body the elbow should be held? From base knowledge this is very obvious. Yes there is what i mean but i aint going to tell you if you don't know. This is more to define how an to what level the test is in so ask or state does this effect the test before asking any of the question.

I am suggesting asking a preconceived list both written down an retain in your memory. I would go so far as to ask after i took that test that day. Cause when i think about it my instructor did grade me thought there was never any test. He would ask question for use an what we retained would tell him were we was at an what he need to teach us. At the end of two years he asked use, So what have you learned about the body in relation to the structure of the body? Why are the shoulder held slightly in? What areas of the body are you actually protecting common in all martial arts? What is the reason for the rolling of the coccyx forward?

 

[bluemtn]

There is no grading where I practice it, as far as I can tell. Personally, I'd rather keep it that way, but as Xue said- to each his own.

 

[pstarr]

I've used a grading system in Yiliquan for many years and it works very well. Back in the day - when martial arts were taught within a particular family or clan there was no need for ranking structures because everyone pretty much knew everyone else.

However, with the spread of martial arts worldwide I think it's a good idea. I've met many instructors who allege that, "I trained with Master X for XXX number of years and I was one of his most senior students..." This leaves a number of questions unanswered-

*Do you have any proof that you trained with Sifu X?
*How often did you attend class? Three times a week? Once a month? Only on Mother's Day?
*And how well did you learn the material that Sifu X taught you? Simply attending class is one thing but acquiring real skill is another.

We wouldn't want to go under the knife of a surgeon who wasn't licensed, would we? Or leave ourselves in the hands of a lawyer who never passed the bar exam?

Certainly, a grading system isn't the answer to all of the problems we face in Chinese martial arts but I really believe it would be a help. Even Sifu Adam Hsu encourages the development of a ranking structure in kung-fu-

Just my two yuan....:soapbox:

 

[qi-tah]

usually in a point based system it is more about how you look not what is need for hitting with fa jing or what is the correct body mechanics for striking heavy or light.

Yeah, that's been my experience too. Forms but no applications... not even 2 man sets. Maybe a combination of a points-based grading and something more along the lines of an aikido grading, where you actually have to demonstate a technique or techniques would be better.

This said i would define my questions to the instructor in some way like this so than you would have a ground to walk on when you took the test.

Is there a natural measure for how far from the body the elbow should be held? From base knowledge this is very obvious. Yes there is what i mean but i aint going to tell you if you don't know. This is more to define how an to what level the test is in so ask or state does this effect the test before asking any of the question.

I am suggesting asking a preconceived list both written down an retain in your memory. I would go so far as to ask after i took that test that day. Cause when i think about it my instructor did grade me thought there was never any test. He would ask question for use an what we retained would tell him were we was at an what he need to teach us. At the end of two years he asked use, So what have you learned about the body in relation to the structure of the body? Why are the shoulder held slightly in? What areas of the body are you actually protecting common in all martial arts? What is the reason for the rolling of the coccyx forward?[/quote]

I wish we got quizzed in that way at our school... we answer a lot of this questioning in a physical way during class, but it's almost never verbalised or formalised. That's great for the kinaesthetic learners, but people who are very visual or auditory might benifit from more of an explanation about what's going on. And also making analogies to other MA's - very useful as well, just to get another perspective. My first teacher did a lot of this and you've just reminded me of how much i miss that approach and how much more rapidly i picked things up then. (Mind you, that might have had something to do with being a beginner!

)
I don't know about asking my teacher about specific things about my grading - i'm interested in how the scores are arrived at, but i don't want to be pulled too far in one direction in terms of my preparation. The form has to "fit" inside my body too, and i feel that this is far more important than how i'm viewed on one day of my life. Perhaps asking questions afterward, like you say... although i think i've left it too late now to ask about my last grading!