Got Milk? Drink It!

[MA-Caver]

Article about how GOOD Milk really is for the body.

http://health.yahoo.net/experts/eatthis/truth-about-milk

 

[Indagator]

Cool, I will check that out. I am a big fan of milk - in fact I take it one step further than many. I buy all my milk direct from a farm, it is full-cream, unpasteurised and is sooooo healthy and natural. It is completely unadulterated, pure cows milk.

Also for those who can handle the taste, goat's milk is fantastic too!

 

[Cirdan]

Milk is good, I drink a lot every day. Besides milk and water I drink little else except some coffee and glass of orange juice at lunch.

Wonder why so many "experts" feel the need to critizise milk. "It`s bad for you", "It is meant for little cows", "Will make you senile". Bah!

 

[Sukerkin]

A very interesting read, Caver :tup:.. Good to read that the 'experts' have finally figured out what everyone knew all along :lol:.

Is it just me or do 'Food Scientists' simply reverse their 'findings' every couple of years?

 

[Cirdan]

The Phantom was a favourite comic of mine when I was a kid. He would walk into a bar and ask for his glass of nice cold milk.

 

[Steve]

I hate milk personally, but do enjoy cheeses. In general, I'm in the camp that believes that cow's milk is perfect for baby cows, not for human beings.

As for this milk is good for you, the article is a little flawed. First, of course, if you drink milk instead of soda pop, you'll lose weight. If you drank water instead of soda pop, you'd be in even better shape.

Claims 1 and 2 are really all about getting good proteins in your diet. This can be accomplished in many ways without drinking milk. Yuck.

Claim 3 has to do with antibiotics, and personally, suggesting that this isn't a terrible thing is contrary to reams of documentation. The reason these cows have to be fed a steady stream of antibiotics is that they live in filthy, unhealthy conditions and wouldn't be able to survive otherwise.

Add to this the Bovine Growth Hormone and I'd rather not take my chances. Saying that we don't know one way or the other isn't a ringing endorsement.

Personally, if you like milk, drink it. It's not going to kill you (although I'd never go near any milk that isn't organic and certified as being from cows that are antibiotic and hormone free). My personal opinion based on what I've read is that it isn't the milk that will kill you, it's the processing that we do to it along the way, from the way we treat the cows to the way we treat the milk in order to extend the shelf life.

 

[SensibleManiac]

Milk is good for you???
What about pus? You know it makes up a large part of pasteurised milk right?

lol,
well it really depends on so many variables that just ANY milk isn't good for you.

Antibiotics in milk; there is alot of scientific data that proves that this is a VERY bad idea.
Simply put what happens is that the bacteria are becoming resistant to the antibiotics and this is going to become an even bigger problem down the road as admitted by the scientific community the world over.

Yes they need antibiotics because the cows are raised knee deep in the own feces.

Raw organic milk is good for you, especially when the milk comes from GRASS FED cows and not grain fed, that are free to roam the pasture and aren't trapped in their own excrement. As well antibiotic free and hormone free as well.

I could go on and on but this topic is old hat and more and more people are doing the research to figure out the truth.

Ask yourself why the dairy industry is soooo desperate to advertise and come up with ad slogans, got milk? and the like?
Reminds me of the plastic water bottle "campaign" to educate people.
It goes like this; Plastic water bottles are evil, but the fact that soda pop far far outsells bottled water is irrelevant. Plastic WATER bottles are evil, plastic soda pop bottles are good. Even when they outsell water bottles by a large percentage in some areas over 10 times. But just remember the plastic WATER bottles are evil... lol :BSmeter:

 

[MA-Caver]

The Phantom was a favourite comic of mine when I was a kid. He would walk into a bar and ask for his glass of nice cold milk.

And he tell the bar tender to put it in a dirty glass.

 

[K-man]

Seems like an emotive issue. Because there's no money in the results of expensive research, the research that would be required will probably never been done.

In the meantime we have two camps and, in fairness, the anti-milk lobby relies more on emotion than scientific fact.

Even in this thread, so far we see:

"Yes they need antibiotics because the cows are raised knee deep in the own feces". (sorry SM)

Now in certain parts of the world cleanliness and hygiene may be a problem but it is certainly not the case here and I think that the depth of the CS may be slightly exaggerated. This in no way is an argument for or against the product itself.

"Raw organic milk is good for you."

Is it? Is it any better than processed milk? I grew up on a farm, drank milk straight from the cow, had a brother in law who was a dairy farmer but I can find no peer reviewed data that makes quantifies this claim.

"What about pus? You know it makes up a large part of pasteurised milk right?"

Huh? I don't think so.

Pus can be white, slightly yellow or green, and is relatively thick, approximately the same as Elmer’s Glue. It’s actually a collection of dead skin cells, white blood cells called neutrophils, and some bacteria that is still putting up a fight. It is a visible sign that you have an infection

Pus is produced when the bodies defensive cells ingest invading bacteria and die thus removing the source of infection. Yogurt is milk inoculated with harmless bacteria that may be beneficial to the body, but even it does not contain 'pus'. Ordinary milk is sterile straight from the breast (read udder). Pasteurisation is to ensure that the milk marketed has not been contaminated.

"Claims 1 and 2 are really all about getting good proteins in your diet. This can be accomplished in many ways without drinking milk. Yuck." (Sorry Sbjj)

How people obtain their nutrients is up to then and varies depending on where you live on this planet. Some communities rely heavily on their cows or goats for nutrition. We are fortunate enough to have choice. Adding "Yuck" to the statement shows bias (read emotion) and invalidates what is essentially a valid point.

"Add to this the Bovine Growth Hormone and I'd rather not take my chances. Saying that we don't know one way or the other isn't a ringing endorsement."

The United States is the only developed nation to permit humans to drink milk from cows given artificial growth hormone. Posilac was banned from use in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and all European Union countries (currently numbering 27), by 2000 or earlier.

BGH is a peculiarly American thing. It in no way adds to the argument as to whether milk itself is good or bad.
Personally, I prefer the fat reduced milk and I don't know if it is bad for me or not. I believe it is a good source of protein, calcium, Vitamin D and other nutrients. As part of a balanced diet, I feel milk plays an important role but I'm perfectly happy to read any peer reviewed scientific article that says otherwise. :asian:

 

[Steve]

Seems like an emotive issue. Because there's no money in the results of expensive research, the research that would be required will probably never been done.

In the meantime we have two camps and, in fairness, the anti-milk lobby relies more on emotion than scientific fact.

Even in this thread, so far we see:

"Yes they need antibiotics because the cows are raised knee deep in the own feces". (sorry SM)

Now in certain parts of the world cleanliness and hygiene may be a problem but it is certainly not the case here and I think that the depth of the CS may be slightly exaggerated. This in no way is an argument for or against the product itself.

"Raw organic milk is good for you."

Is it? Is it any better than processed milk? I grew up on a farm, drank milk straight from the cow, had a brother in law who was a dairy farmer but I can find no peer reviewed data that makes quantifies this claim.

"What about pus? You know it makes up a large part of pasteurised milk right?"

Huh? I don't think so.
Pus is produced when the bodies defensive cells ingest invading bacteria and die thus removing the source of infection. Yogurt is milk inoculated with harmless bacteria that may be beneficial to the body, but even it does not contain 'pus'. Ordinary milk is sterile straight from the breast (read udder). Pasteurisation is to ensure that the milk marketed has not been contaminated.

"Claims 1 and 2 are really all about getting good proteins in your diet. This can be accomplished in many ways without drinking milk. Yuck." (Sorry Sbjj)

How people obtain their nutrients is up to then and varies depending on where you live on this planet. Some communities rely heavily on their cows or goats for nutrition. We are fortunate enough to have choice. Adding "Yuck" to the statement shows bias (read emotion) and invalidates what is essentially a valid point.

"Add to this the Bovine Growth Hormone and I'd rather not take my chances. Saying that we don't know one way or the other isn't a ringing endorsement."

BGH is a peculiarly American thing. It in no way adds to the argument as to whether milk itself is good or bad.
Personally, I prefer the fat reduced milk and I don't know if it is bad for me or not. I believe it is a good source of protein, calcium, Vitamin D and other nutrients. As part of a balanced diet, I feel milk plays an important role but I'm perfectly happy to read any peer reviewed scientific article that says otherwise. :asian:

Whether or not there's an emotive element to a forum post has absolutely zero influence on whether the content of the post is accurate or has merit. Apologizing to us as though you somehow discovered a hidden agenda betrays your own bias, but I won't hold that against you. After all, this is a forum where we're sharing both facts AND opinions.

Speaking of opinions, mine is that if you don't think that the term "yuck" is apropos when describing an environment in which dairy cows are living in filth such that they literally need a steady dose of antibiotics in order function as dairy cows, I really don't know what to say. If that's not yucky, I guess I don't know what the word means.

I also thought I was pretty clear when I said that milk won't kill you. If you like milk, enjoy it. Just don't try to make it sound as though it's some kind of essential ingredient for good health.

Or, as I concluded my pretty brief post before, "Personally, if you like milk, drink it. It's not going to kill you (although I'd never go near any milk that isn't organic and certified as being from cows that are antibiotic and hormone free). My personal opinion based on what I've read is that it isn't the milk that will kill you, it's the processing that we do to it along the way, from the way we treat the cows to the way we treat the milk in order to extend the shelf life." Do you disagree with this?

 

[Cirdan]

Growing up in a farming community I`ve been to many many farms and can`t say I`ve ever seen a cow knee dep in feces. Well except that one time a cow had fallen trough the floor and into the muck cellar.. had to be dug out. Then again I live in Norway, conditions might be different elsewhere.

Norwegians love their milk, when our athletes travel abroad to compete they get sent fresh milk from home every few days.

 

[Steve]

Growing up in a farming community I`ve been to many many farms and can`t say I`ve ever seen a cow knee dep in feces. Well except that one time a cow had fallen trough the floor and into the muck cellar.. had to be dug out. Then again I live in Norway, conditions might be different elsewhere.

Norwegians love their milk, when our athletes travel abroad to compete they get sent fresh milk from home every few days.

The milk I drank while living in Germany is not the same as the milk I am able to purchase in the USA. I think "knee deep in feces" was hyperbolic, but the conditions are pretty bad.

For the record, I keep milk in the house. My daughter likes it, and my son puts it on his cereal. We buy 1%, organic milk that is certified antibiotic and hormone free. While I've never had it tested to make sure that these claims are accurate, I do feel better about having that in the house.

Just to reiterate, the milk isn't what gets you. IT's the conditions in which the cows are kept and the processing we do to the milk to make it last longer. If you live in a country that keeps cows in a natural state instead of trying to turn them into frankenzombiecows, great. You probably also have national health care. The USA is a great place, but we have some pretty serious issues, too.

 

[Sukerkin]

What the heck is dairy farming like in America if Steve's opinions are anywhere near grounded in reality !

Mate, I don't know what your rural background is or, as noted, how American farming methods differ from British ones but what you describe is so far removed from my own experience as to be hard to credence!

If you don't like milk that is fine but if what you're saying is purely based on a personal distaste for the human evolutionary adaptation to process bovine dairy protein it's best not to go too far down the hyperbole route.

 

[Archangel M]

I don't think Steve has ever set foot in a dairy farm for himself. I have..so I have my opinion about who here is truly standing in a pile of feces.

 

[Steve]

What the heck is dairy farming like in America if Steve's opinions are anywhere near grounded in reality !

Mate, I don't know what your rural background is or, as noted, how American farming methods differ from British ones but what you describe is so far removed from my own experience as to be hard to credence!

If you don't like milk that is fine but if what you're saying is purely based on a personal distaste for the human evolutionary adaptation to process bovine dairy protein it's best not to go too far down the hyperbole route.

What have I said that isn't true? Sukerkin, do some looking into dry-lot or factory farm dairies. That's how most of the milk in America is produced. Most people think that their milk is relatively local. Usually, it's not.

 

[Steve]

I don't think Steve has ever set foot in a dairy farm for himself. I have..so I have my opinion about who here is truly standing in a pile of feces.

And once again, as an MT Mentor, I am just baffled in what way you are a positive influence to the community.

Where did I say anything about anything standing in feces? And as I asked Sukerkin, what have I said that isn't true?

 

[K-man]

Whether or not there's an emotive element to a forum post has absolutely zero influence on whether the content of the post is accurate or has merit. Apologizing to us as though you somehow discovered a hidden agenda betrays your own bias, but I won't hold that against you. After all, this is a forum where we're sharing both facts AND opinions.

Speaking of opinions, mine is that if you don't think that the term "yuck" is apropos when describing an environment in which dairy cows are living in filth such that they literally need a steady dose of antibiotics in order function as dairy cows, I really don't know what to say. If that's not yucky, I guess I don't know what the word means.

I also thought I was pretty clear when I said that milk won't kill you. If you like milk, enjoy it. Just don't try to make it sound as though it's some kind of essential ingredient for good health.

Or, as I concluded my pretty brief post before, "Personally, if you like milk, drink it. It's not going to kill you (although I'd never go near any milk that isn't organic and certified as being from cows that are antibiotic and hormone free). My personal opinion based on what I've read is that it isn't the milk that will kill you, it's the processing that we do to it along the way, from the way we treat the cows to the way we treat the milk in order to extend the shelf life." Do you disagree with this?

In order. I have no bias. I apologised for using you post and SM's post as examples. Nothing sinister. Opinions in this post are irrelevant, we are looking at facts. Is milk good for you or is it not? I don't care what people think. That is their prerogative. What I want to know is, is there any scientific evidence to show that milk is good for you or is there evidence it is bad for you?
As to cows living in the filth you describe ... well I can only take your word for it. I have not seen those conditions anywhere else in the world, and I didn't see it when I visited the US either. I have never met a farmer who would allow such conditions. Every farmer I know strives for best practice and best practice does not allow your stock to stand knee deep in s**t! In Australia much of the dairy is conducted on irrigated pasture. The area stocked is rotated and the manure is raked to break it up after the cows have used that area. By the time the cows return to that area of pasture, the manure has broken down. As for the need for antibiotics, penicillin is injected into the teat if mastitis is present. The penicillin contains a very distinctive purple dye so that the milk from an infected udder in not used for any commercial use.

Poultry feed quite often contains antibiotics which aids in the rapid growth of the birds. I am not aware of antibiotics being fed to dairy animals but would welcome any-one's evidence to the contrary. Antibiotic use is to accelerate the production of muscle, not milk. This is of no relevance to the dairy industry.

As to whether milk is an essential ingredient to good health, it depends where you live. In many places in the world it is essential. In the first world countries we have a choice.

My personal opinion based on what I've read is that it isn't the milk that will kill you, it's the processing that we do to it along the way, from the way we treat the cows to the way we treat the milk in order to extend the shelf life." Do you disagree with this?

Unfortunately, yes. I totally disagree. What you have said here is the milk won't kill you but the farming methods and processing will. That is patently untrue as people in the US and elsewhere are drinking processed milk and surviving! That is totally different to what I believe you meant to say which may have been "The milk itself is OK but the processing and some farming practices reduce the nutritional value of the product". I believe the way milk is processed to extend the shelf life (your terminology .. mine would be to ensure safety) is perfectly safe. I am not aware of dairy herds anywhere in the world subjected to the conditions that you are convinced are present in the US and, as I pointed out in the previous post, the US is one of the only countries in the world, if not the only country, to allow the use of BGH in their dairy herds. Whether that is a problem or not is a separate argument. Regardless of that, I believe that the majority of US dairy farmers do not use BGH.

Now as I said before, I drink milk. In Australia, and most of the countries of the world, it appears perfectly safe to drink milk. If there is peer reviewed evidence to suggest that it is unhealthy to drink milk I am more than happy to change my view.

As an aside. A question for those who think that milk should not be for human consumption. What do you think of protein supplements? :asian:

 

[Archangel M]

Clean and "happy cows" are not kept that way by farmers purely out of kindness. Well cared for cows produce more. I'm sure someone can point out a "dirty farm" when they want to, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

The "anti-milk/anti-meat" propaganda is a PETA political agenda here in the states. They prefer we all become vegans so it's in their interests to paint as many animal based products as unhealthy as they can.

 

[Steve]

In order. I have no bias.

Of course you have a bias. You can try to be objective, but that is simply trying specifically to react independent of your bias.

I apologised for using you post and SM's post as examples. Nothing sinister.

Sinister? If you're doing things for which you feel you need to apologize, perhaps you shouldn't do them.

Opinions in this post are irrelevant, we are looking at facts. Is milk good for you or is it not?

The point of the OP was looking for reactions to a specific article. I reacted to the article. And my opinions, on an online forum, are always relevant. Yours are, too.

I don't care what people think. That is their prerogative.

If you don't care what people think, I again have to wonder why you're posting on an online forum.

What I want to know is, is there any scientific evidence to show that milk is good for you or is there evidence it is bad for you?

And I will once again point you to my first post where I said, "it's the processing that we do to it along the way, from the way we treat the cows to the way we treat the milk in order to extend the shelf life." Are you even reading the posts?

As to cows living in the filth you describe ... well I can only take your word for it. I have not seen those conditions anywhere else in the world, and I didn't see it when I visited the US either. I have never met a farmer who would allow such conditions.

Okay. Anecdotally, you've never seen those conditions in Australia or in the USA. Can you give me an idea of what your credentials are? How long were you in the USA? Where did you go? Your anecdotal position is really only as strong as your credibility. If you aren't credible, or your credibility is questionable, your stories are irrelevant. I'm not saying you are not credible. What I'm saying is that we need now to establish your credibility if you want to use your own personal experience in what you are describing is a fact based conversation.

Every farmer I know strives for best practice and best practice does not allow your stock to stand knee deep in s**t! In Australia much of the dairy is conducted on irrigated pasture. The area stocked is rotated and the manure is raked to break it up after the cows have used that area. By the time the cows return to that area of pasture, the manure has broken down. As for the need for antibiotics, penicillin is injected into the teat if mastitis is present. The penicillin contains a very distinctive purple dye so that the milk from an infected udder in not used for any commercial use.

Sounds great. And again... I wonder if you've read my previous posts completely. Where I said that it's not the milk, but how we treat the cows and the processing that's done to the milk along the way. I also, in the post to Sukerkin, suggested reading about factory farming/dry-lot farming. It may very well be that the USA is doing things in a uniquely unhealthy fashion.

I'll also say that in recent years, there's been a pretty strong movement (at least in the PNW) to buy locally grown produce and moving away from factory farming.

Poultry feed quite often contains antibiotics which aids in the rapid growth of the birds. I am not aware of antibiotics being fed to dairy animals but would welcome any-one's evidence to the contrary. Antibiotic use is to accelerate the production of muscle, not milk. This is of no relevance to the dairy industry.

IT's as unhealthy in poultry as in dairy, and I try not to eat any poultry that has been raised with hormones, antibiotics or both.

As to whether milk is an essential ingredient to good health, it depends where you live. In many places in the world it is essential. In the first world countries we have a choice.

Of course. I have never said otherwise.

Unfortunately, yes. I totally disagree.

Why is this unfortunate? Are you going to apologize again?

What you have said here is the milk won't kill you but the farming methods and processing will.

I have said that, yes.

That is patently untrue as people in the US and elsewhere are drinking processed milk and surviving!

If you're going to be dickish about things, Florence Griffith Joyner was in milk ads who died from complications related to her drinking milk. It's a tragic story. But in conversations like the one we're having, I think it's pretty obvious to anyone other than you that I wasn't being literal.

As an aside. A question for those who think that milk should not be for human consumption. What do you think of protein supplements? :asian:

Depends entirely on the supplement, where it comes from and how it's processed.

Clean and "happy cows" are not kept that way by farmers purely out of kindness. Well cared for cows produce more. I'm sure someone can point out a "dirty farm" when they want to, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

The "anti-milk/anti-meat" propaganda is a PETA political agenda here in the states. They prefer we all become vegans so it's in their interests to paint as many animal based products as unhealthy as they can.

It's a conspiracy. Of course. Because antibiotics are awesome, nevermind that antibiotic resistant strains of staph and other infections are becoming alarmingly common. I don't know about you, but I don't have anything against farmers. My opinion is based on the easily found information about factory farming, antibiotics, growth hormones and the conditions in these farms. The sources are more credible than an anonymous guy in Australia who likes to say he's sorry for things he's clearly not sorry about.

I get a kick out of you in particular, Archangel. You are always trying to make things more extreme than they really are. I can't see in my post any kind of indictment against farmers in general or dairy farming. I eat meat and love it. I also like leather upholstery in cars and leather shoes. Disagreeing with you doesn't necessarily equal PETA member/vegan/hippy/tree hugger, as difficult as that might be for you to understand. I do have a problem with factory farms and the need to pump cattle full of antibiotics in order to keep them healthy and fat, and most farms in America do just this. If you and your buddies don't, more power to you. I'm on your side.

 

[cdunn]

I consume very few dairy products, outside of seperated whey protein. They impart a nigh-bovine level of flatulence to me. On the occasion that I do, however, I refuse to eat or drink any dairy products that are unpastuerized.

While the risks associated with bovine growth hormones are debateable, and the practice of mixing antibiotics into grain at a sub-therapeutic dose is moronic at best, pastuerization provides an excellent check against a cow getting an illness or a bad day from one dairy farmer contaminating thousands of gallons of milk, which is, after all, an excellent growth medium for a lot of bacteria, for the same reasons it is nutritious for us. Milk can easily carry: E. Coli, Typhoid Fever, Q-Fever, Tuberculosis, Diptheria, Strep throat, etc, etc. This goes double for the ill-regulated, under-the-counter market. Thanks, but no thanks.