Goodwill or Devaluing of the Art?

[OKenpo942]

All I can say is that I am greatful to my instructor, who when I was 13 yrs old and came to him and told him that I could no longer come to class, said "don't worry about the money, you have too much ability to quit". He is truly a good man with a love for the preservation and continuance of our art and for people.

His gift of Kenpo to me will never be forgotten and I hope to do the same for people in the future. To me, there is no better gift than to give and expect nothing in return. His return was not for himself, but for the gift itself. That it will continue to be taught as he taught it (or as closely as possible). Thank you, sir.

James

 

[Wo Fat]

All I can say is that I am greatful to my instructor, who when I was 13 yrs old and came to him and told him that I could no longer come to class, said "don't worry about the money, you have too much ability to quit". He is truly a good man with a love for the preservation and continuance of our art and for people.

His gift of Kenpo to me will never be forgotten and I hope to do the same for people in the future. To me, there is no better gift than to give and expect nothing in return. His return was not for himself, but for the gift itself. That it will continue to be taught as he taught it (or as closely as possible). Thank you, sir.

James

That's a great point. And, IMO, the right thing to do. But when it comes to giving a friend (or the friends children) the "hook-up", then ... well, experience has taught me that in many cases, people will assign a corresponding value to what they've been given. In other words, "if it didn't cost much then it probably ain't worth much". Certainly not everyone feels that way. But those people do exist.

 

[KenpoDave]

My colleague and I have been discussing the issue of discounts, freebies, etc., regarding the tuition and other fees that we charge. We are both fairly young schools (2 years) and have some experience to gain.

One issue we've been discussing is whether it's a good idea to give discounts on tuition -- or in some cases, free tuition. Admittedly, we have done both. The main reason was to get people in the door and on the mat. If we started off with "charter" or ground-floor" students who received discounts, hook-ups, etc. it would look like "the place to be."

But there is the notion that when you give away or deeply discount the tuition, you are devaluing the Kenpo/Kajukenbo arts.

How do people feel about discounts, comps, etc.? Bad idea? Goodwill?

I have a couple of questions:

1. Is this working for you? Are the discounts and tuition breaks helping to increase your membership?
2. Is the quality of your students less than what you hoped for, what you were hoping for, or better than expected?
3. How do your students feel about the discounts given to others?

 

[Milt G.]

well, if you charge nothing, some students will not value the art. You charge them something, even if it is a token, they will show up. Free? they can stay home and not train, cuz they are not invested.....

Good points... I tend to agree.
Milt G.

 

[Milt G.]

Absolutely. You aren't devaluing the art for teaching for less, or free, but the folks that are promoting black belts with crappy stances and poor execution...that's devaluing the art itself.

I hope that something will work out for your school :asian:

Hello...
I agree.
But what are the standards, and who should set them?

If the teachers are qualified to promote, and they promote students that lack certain... I will say; "qualities", what can be done about it?

I think one problem may be the variations in opinion on what is a good stance, kick, block or punch.
Some set the standards too high, some too low. So, what is the answer...? The middle, perhaps? But, "Who's" middle?
The $60,000. question.

Good point you made, I think?
Milt G.

 

[Wo Fat]

I have a couple of questions:

1. Is this working for you? Are the discounts and tuition breaks helping to increase your membership?
2. Is the quality of your students less than what you hoped for, what you were hoping for, or better than expected?
3. How do your students feel about the discounts given to others?

Hi Dave:

1. The students who received free tuition were not very committed and ended up quitting. So no; the idea that we could get some bodies on the floor by offering free tuition to friends, did not work. That said, the discounted rates have helped to retain a few students.

2. Right now we are finding that we have martial arts "students" and martial arts "customers". Every instructor wants high quality, committed, and regularly training students. I would have settled for 10% of the latter but we are lucky to have about 25%. Of that 25% of high quality students, most of them are paying full tuition.

3. Well, those students who were either comp'd or heavily discounted, have gone. But there was a time when one or two parents began to wonder if the comp'd kids was paying any tuition at all since they were absent so often. So I'd say that some students' (parents) weren't happy to be paying full tuition while others didn't. But as of now, the only discounts are family discounts and they are publicly posted.

Good questions. Makes one realize that you can be as passionate about martial arts as you want, but passion isn't a substitute for sound business practices.

 

[KenpoDave]

2. Right now we are finding that we have martial arts "students" and martial arts "customers". Every instructor wants high quality, committed, and regularly training students. I would have settled for 10% of the latter but we are lucky to have about 25%. Of that 25% of high quality students, most of them are paying full tuition.

Sounds like you have found your core group, and you can build from that. 25% is a decent population to start with.

 

[decepticon]

What got me and my 12yo daughter started about a year ago was one free, introductory class, month to month payments - no long term contracts, no need to buy a gi or any special equipment until at the higher levels, and a great instructor.

I do think that people often assign little value to that which costs them nothing, so perhaps you could consider a work study type of program where students short on cash can work some of the debt off by helping keep the facility clean, helping with a website, handing out flyers at demos, etc. We have worked out a barter arrangement with our instructor, however my husband is a professional videographer and photographer and we are bartering the cost of his services (to develop teaching materials for sale that the instructor wanted but couldn't afford to have made) for classes.

I think the main surprise for me as part of the completely uninitiated public was to discover that BB's are not created equal. Now that seems so obvious, but I previously had no idea that was the case. I just assumed there was some sort of standardization. So be sure to let potential students and their families know what your program consists of and encourage them to compare it with others by gathering the proper information so that they can compare "blacks to blacks".

 

[Wo Fat]

What got me and my 12yo daughter started about a year ago was one free, introductory class, month to month payments - no long term contracts, no need to buy a gi or any special equipment until at the higher levels, and a great instructor.

I do think that people often assign little value to that which costs them nothing, so perhaps you could consider a work study type of program where students short on cash can work some of the debt off by helping keep the facility clean, helping with a website, handing out flyers at demos, etc. We have worked out a barter arrangement with our instructor, however my husband is a professional videographer and photographer and we are bartering the cost of his services (to develop teaching materials for sale that the instructor wanted but couldn't afford to have made) for classes.

I think the main surprise for me as part of the completely uninitiated public was to discover that BB's are not created equal. Now that seems so obvious, but I previously had no idea that was the case. I just assumed there was some sort of standardization. So be sure to let potential students and their families know what your program consists of and encourage them to compare it with others by gathering the proper information so that they can compare "blacks to blacks".

Thanks, deception. Ironically, the last paragraph of your post is very timely. We have found that the Tae Kwon Day Care facilities in our area are having an easier time convincing the public that their 10-year old black belts are equal to an adult Kenpo black belt.

 

[decepticon]

How about you counter with something like:

"Many people are surprised to learn that not all black belts are created equal. Each martial arts discipline has their own unique number/color of belts to award and each one determines their own requirements for each belt, including the black belt. While the general public often considers a Black Belt to be the mark of a martial arts expert, somone who can vanquish all enemies, the truth is that in some disciplines a black belt merely indicates that the student has attended classes for a prescribed number of months and has paid to move up in belt ranking at regular intervals. That is why some disciplines can award a black belt to children, who have put in a certain amount of time, but who would not be capable of defending themselves against an adult attacker.

In the kenpo discipline we teach, the belt rankings are based primarily on achievement and proficiency, with a black belt indicative of a high level of competency and ability to defend one's self and others. It normally takes students approximately X number of years to achieve this rank and most continue training beyond that point to further polish their skills."

Can you tell I have a degree in public relations???

 

[Wo Fat]

Beautiful. And yes, you are definitely a PR person (and it sounds like a good one at that!)

 

[Josh Oakley]

The more one charges, the more the "Customers" will come to expect. They will expect to be promoted (or have their kids promoted) at a certain pace. Try to fail a student in a test when they have paid a lot of money for the testing fee and see what happens. They will expect to be treated like they are your employers etc. etc. I'd rather have students than customers even if that means teaching for free. That way, we can train how we want to, kick out whomever we want to, run the class like we want to, promote only those that deserve it and test when we want to. If they dont like it, they know where the door is. It keeps the art pure. Those that stay and persevere are Ohana. Those that don't learned something about themselves too.

You know, I absolutely agree. While I do have some students I keep in touch with from when I was teaching commercially, I feel as though I can develop the two students I am currently teaching for free than I could have developed them when I had a dojo to run, assistants to monitor and develop, drama to qwell, late past-due accounts to follow up on, records to keep, multiple promotional engagements, belt tests, etc etc, AND still had a lot of students to teach. I definitely agree that I prefer students to customers.

 

[Buka]

Tests. They are pass/fail. If everyone passes every test, is that really a test? The day a student becomes a "customer" is the day the death knell sounds for what Martial Arts stands for.

 

[Twin Fist]

if you charge they are customers, but there is no automatic pass.

 

[Wo Fat]

if you charge they are customers ...

True ... in the abstract. I have put this challenge to our students: "are you a martial arts student or a martial arts customer"? Students understand that the tuition they pay represents their commitment to the existence of the school--for the sake of their fellow students as well as the instructor. Customers, on the other hand, don't even contemplate those things. They show up when they show up; their kids get to play and go "ha yah!" for a half-hour; go home; and think precious little about the school or what they've learned or what's left to learn.

 

[decepticon]

True ... in the abstract. I have put this challenge to our students: "are you a martial arts student or a martial arts customer"? Students understand that the tuition they pay represents their commitment to the existence of the school--for the sake of their fellow students as well as the instructor. Customers, on the other hand, don't even contemplate those things. They show up when they show up; their kids get to play and go "ha yah!" for a half-hour; go home; and think precious little about the school or what they've learned or what's left to learn.

Is it wrong to have both? I'm not judging here, just trying to understand.

Not everyone wants or needs the same thing from martial arts. For some little kids, it may be the only situation in their life where they are required to be physically active, to obey someone else's rules, or to seek balance or self control. Is there anything wrong with charging for teaching them to do those things? Other people are looking for self defense skills, and can hopefully receive them in MA classes. Most of them will not reach BB level. Yet others are seeking to achieve the very highest levels of MA practice possible for themselves.

But I don't see that these things have to be mutually exclusive. Piano teachers have dozens, maybe even hundreds of unmotivated students, forced by their parents to plod along through the Little Donkey song, and only a handful of truly talented students who will pursue higher levels. Should they quit teaching (or charging) just because not all of their students have the talent, focus, or drive to excel? Should they refuse to provide instruction to those who probably won't take it very seriously?

I am viewing this as someone who has just come on board from the outside (only about a year in MA). I think sometimes many of the instructors/high level folks here are too close to the forest to see the trees. It is okay to provide a MA experience for those who are unlikely to take it very far. It is okay that many students only go as far as their money, skill, time, talent, or interest will take them, which isn't very far through the belts. It is wonderful that a special few students have the combination of those attributes all together at the same time and are able to take MA to a very high level. And in my opinion, it is fine that an instructor will vary the approach and expectations to meet each of these students where they are, provide quality services to help them meet their goals, offer targeted products of interest to each group, and charge a reasonable fee for doing so.

 

[Wo Fat]

Is it wrong to have both? I'm not judging here, just trying to understand.

I have found that having both is inevitable. It's a natural consequence of being in business (and like Twin Fist said, if you charge then you're in business). More than anything, it's a mental adjustment. Especially for a long-timer in the martial arts.

I'm not complaining about anymore, though. It's a privilege to run a business, and the reality is that once in a while I'll get someone who wants to be the old-school "student".

 

[Josh Oakley]

Is it wrong to have both? I'm not judging here, just trying to understand.Not everyone wants or needs the same thing from martial arts. For some little kids, it may be the only situation in their life where they are required to be physically active, to obey someone else's rules, or to seek balance or self control. Is there anything wrong with charging for teaching them to do those things? Other people are looking for self defense skills, and can hopefully receive them in MA classes. Most of them will not reach BB level. Yet others are seeking to achieve the very highest levels of MA practice possible for themselves.But I don't see that these things have to be mutually exclusive. Piano teachers have dozens, maybe even hundreds of unmotivated students, forced by their parents to plod along through the Little Donkey song, and only a handful of truly talented students who will pursue higher levels. Should they quit teaching (or charging) just because not all of their students have the talent, focus, or drive to excel? Should they refuse to provide instruction to those who probably won't take it very seriously?I am viewing this as someone who has just come on board from the outside (only about a year in MA). I think sometimes many of the instructors/high level folks here are too close to the forest to see the trees. It is okay to provide a MA experience for those who are unlikely to take it very far. It is okay that many students only go as far as their money, skill, time, talent, or interest will take them, which isn't very far through the belts. It is wonderful that a special few students have the combination of those attributes all together at the same time and are able to take MA to a very high level. And in my opinion, it is fine that an instructor will vary the approach and expectations to meet each of these students where they are, provide quality services to help them meet their goals, offer targeted products of interest to each group, and charge a reasonable fee for doing so.

Oh I don't have a specific problem with commercial instruction, I was just saying I enjoy teaching privately at this juncture in my life.

 

[senseishane]

To me, and this is personal, teaching is a very noble profession when done with the right motivations. Whether you make it your living, teach privately and part time, or even share with a friend or acquaintenance who needs it, it is noble. We are all human beings and can share from each others experiences and knoweldge. Having said that, I'm always about helping prospective students afford classes in whatever way I can. I'm a firm believer that if they are in the dojo learning, they are growing (even if only through absorption sometimes). I have no issue with discounting dues/fees when there is a true need, but having said that, it is never pleasant to feel like you are being taken advantage of as well. If someone cannot truly pay, okay - I'll help - but don't take advantage of the kindness if you are not really in need.

If you can afford to discount instruction/promotions/merchandise, then go for it. I see no issues with it.

Over the years of teaching, this "loose policy" has worked well most of the time and even led to some people coming in that would not (or could not) otherwise have started in classes.

Just my .02