Goodwill or Devaluing of the Art?

[Wo Fat]

My colleague and I have been discussing the issue of discounts, freebies, etc., regarding the tuition and other fees that we charge. We are both fairly young schools (2 years) and have some experience to gain.

One issue we've been discussing is whether it's a good idea to give discounts on tuition -- or in some cases, free tuition. Admittedly, we have done both. The main reason was to get people in the door and on the mat. If we started off with "charter" or ground-floor" students who received discounts, hook-ups, etc. it would look like "the place to be."

But there is the notion that when you give away or deeply discount the tuition, you are devaluing the Kenpo/Kajukenbo arts.

How do people feel about discounts, comps, etc.? Bad idea? Goodwill?

 

[MJS]

My colleague and I have been discussing the issue of discounts, freebies, etc., regarding the tuition and other fees that we charge. We are both fairly young schools (2 years) and have some experience to gain.

One issue we've been discussing is whether it's a good idea to give discounts on tuition -- or in some cases, free tuition. Admittedly, we have done both. The main reason was to get people in the door and on the mat. If we started off with "charter" or ground-floor" students who received discounts, hook-ups, etc. it would look like "the place to be."

But there is the notion that when you give away or deeply discount the tuition, you are devaluing the Kenpo/Kajukenbo arts.

How do people feel about discounts, comps, etc.? Bad idea? Goodwill?

IMO, I dont see anything wrong with things like 6 weeks for $99. This gives the potential student an opportunity to try out your classes, get a feel for what the school is like, the people, etc. If they want to join, great. Of course, the cost of the other classes will probably be higher. If they dont, all that was lost/gained, was $99.

I dont see doing something like that, as devaluing the art.

 

[Twin Fist]

in THIS economy, you do what you have to to get them on the mat. You know what REALLY devalues the art? not having anyone to teach it to

 

[sfs982000]

in THIS economy, you do what you have to to get them on the mat. You know what REALLY devalues the art? not having anyone to teach it to

You certainly hit the nail on the head Twin Fist, you have to be somewhat creative nowadays to recruit new students and keep the ones that you do have. I've know alot of instructors that have had good students fall under hard times financially and have worked out payment plans and other ways to keep the students in the school without having to lose them completely.

 

[MJS]

I know people that teach for free or for a minimal cost. IMO, those people aren't devaluing the art, they're helping to keep it growing.

 

[Wo Fat]

I know people that teach for free or for a minimal cost. IMO, those people aren't devaluing the art, they're helping to keep it growing.

I hear you. Let me ask you this: in an area that is dominated by TKD schools that fetch $100+ per month, am I devaluing Kenpo/Kaju by charging much less (when I believe that we offer much more martial arts for the money)?

 

[MJS]

I hear you. Let me ask you this: in an area that is dominated by TKD schools that fetch $100+ per month, am I devaluing Kenpo/Kaju by charging much less (when I believe that we offer much more martial arts for the money)?

IMHO, no. Why? Most likely because you're not running a mcdojo. IMO, its about the quality over the quantity. Quality of the students, vs. how many students, how many black belts you have, etc. For me, I'd rather have 10 quality students, who I know, know their stuff, and can use it to defend themselves, instead of having 100 students, 50 of them BBs, of those 50, 40 are under 10 with a 1st or 2nd degree BB.

 

[Wo Fat]

IMHO, no. Why? Most likely because you're not running a mcdojo. IMO, its about the quality over the quantity. Quality of the students, vs. how many students, how many black belts you have, etc. For me, I'd rather have 10 quality students, who I know, know their stuff, and can use it to defend themselves, instead of having 100 students, 50 of them BBs, of those 50, 40 are under 10 with a 1st or 2nd degree BB.

It would be useless and silly for me to try and play devil's advocate with that^

Now, we understand the mcdojo business model from the school owner's perspective -- it's bottom-line driven. But what is the customer/student's perspective? In other words, why would martial arts students pay twice as much for a happy meal when they could get a gourmet meal everyday at half the price?

 

[Balrog]

We do one month free instruction for prospects, figuring that at the end of the month, they will be willing to sign up full-time. If they don't, shame on me as an instructor.

I will waive monthly dues in special cases. For example, I've got a single mom with two kids in my school. In this economy, she's having a bad time making ends meet. She'll come in every once in a while and give me a check for whatever she can. But I know she'll be good for it; if nothing more, when she makes her Black Belt, I'll get it back from her in "sweat equity" when she starts teaching lower rank classes.

I'd like for my school to be in the black (wouldn't we all!). But I am fortunate enough to be able to carry it for a while as we are getting built back up. Offering reduced rates on sales, etc., IMNSHO does not "cheapen" the art. As was said earlier, if you have no one to teach, it's a moot point. And to me, the students benefitting from learning martial arts overrides a little financial crunch on my part.

 

[Flying Crane]

The cost you charge depends on your goals as a school. If you are trying to make a living thru your school, then you gotta charge. If you give tuition breaks to get people in the door, and that gets them started and they stay for the long haul, and they are happy with the training they get for the price they pay, then there is nothing wrong with that.

In and of itself, charging less or nothing at all doesn't devalue anything. It just comes down to your goals and needs as an instructor, and finding students who are in agreement with that.

I have two students. I do not charge anything, for various reasons. I can state with certainty that my students do not see it as being devalued at all. I'm not interested in charging for it, and that doesn't lessen the value for my students. They can recognize quality when they see it.

 

[MJS]

It would be useless and silly for me to try and play devil's advocate with that^

Now, we understand the mcdojo business model from the school owner's perspective -- it's bottom-line driven. But what is the customer/student's perspective? In other words, why would martial arts students pay twice as much for a happy meal when they could get a gourmet meal everyday at half the price?

IMHO, it comes down to a combination of: not having any understanding of the arts, and an overall misconception of the ranks. If school 1 told the perspective student that they didn't accept kids under 8 and they'd have to wait at least until they were 16 before they could even think about getting a BB, or school 2, where a 3yo could enroll and they'd be sure to get a BB in 2yrs...well, like I said, given that many dont have a clue and they think the BB is some magical thing, they're probably going to go with school 2.

People want everything now...they dont wanna wait. So, if it means getting what they want, quicker, they'll gladly pay. Do you think the school owner is complaining? Of course not. LOL. He's getting paid, so what does he care. He's happy, the parents are happy, because little Johnny and Suzie are happy...happiness all around. LMAO!!! Johnny and Suzie could suck but again, as long as they're wearing that belt......

Think about it....if your boss at your job said to you, that instead of working 40hrs, you could work 10 and still get paid for 40. You'd be a fool to turn that down. You're doing less than half the work but still reaping the benefits of those that actually do work 40hrs. How does this relate to belts? The people that put in the 40hrs, are busting their ***, the ones that put in 10, are not.

 

[Carol]

It sounds to me as if you aren't sure which way you want to go with your business. Do you have a formal business plan in place?

Are you going to go non-profit and cater to students in need? Or are you going to go commercial and maximizing your earning power while still staying true to the level of rigorousness you want to teach?

Who is your target market? Is it experienced martial artists that are already familiar with Kaju? Or is it beginners starting out? Tough to turn a profit on experienced MAists, yet fresh beginners don't have the knowledge or experience to know what they are looking for yet. And alllllll of the schools in town say they're special because of (fill in the blank).

 

[Wo Fat]

FC

You hit the nail on the head. Frankly, I don't know which came first ... the under-educated public who thinks that 7-year-old Black Belts is the norm, or the schools that award them.

Carol

You know the old saying ... "everybody fighter has a plan until they get hit"? Well, yes, I have a business plan. A very good one, I thought. But then reality has a nasty left hook. The reality--in my area--is that the people willing to pay $150 a month, either want name-brand MMA or they want Tae Kwon Day Care.

 

[Cyriacus]

Its my opinion that how much is Charged, and Free Lessons, and whathaveyou, are not devalueing the Art.

How can actually having Students to teach be devalueing the Art? I mean, imagine youve NEVER done ANY MA. You walk in to a Dojo after a couple of weeks of thinking about it, only to be told you need to pay a fee to even try it out.
So you might say, watch a Class.

Heres the thing about Watching a Class. Thats easy for us MAists to say, because we know what were looking at. To any beginner, theyd just see motions, and perhaps conclude that its too hard/complicated for them to bother even trying. Take Kata, for example. If someone had no idea what it was, or how it worked, watching it be done wouldnt benefit their decision at all. In fact, the only thing people will clearly understand is bagwork or sparring, since it requires no prior knowledge to comprehend.

In short, such concessions are necessary for the SAKE of the Art.

 

[Danjo]

The more one charges, the more the "Customers" will come to expect. They will expect to be promoted (or have their kids promoted) at a certain pace. Try to fail a student in a test when they have paid a lot of money for the testing fee and see what happens. They will expect to be treated like they are your employers etc. etc. I'd rather have students than customers even if that means teaching for free. That way, we can train how we want to, kick out whomever we want to, run the class like we want to, promote only those that deserve it and test when we want to. If they dont like it, they know where the door is. It keeps the art pure. Those that stay and persevere are Ohana. Those that don't learned something about themselves too.

 

[Yondanchris]

The more one charges, the more the "Customers" will come to expect. They will expect to be promoted (or have their kids promoted) at a certain pace. Try to fail a student in a test when they have paid a lot of money for the testing fee and see what happens. They will expect to be treated like they are your employers etc. etc. I'd rather have students than customers even if that means teaching for free. That way, we can train how we want to, kick out whomever we want to, run the class like we want to, promote only those that deserve it and test when we want to. If they dont like it, they know where the door is. It keeps the art pure. Those that stay and persevere are Ohana. Those that don't learned something about themselves too.

Right ON!

That's why I love teaching for almost nothing (all of our monthly dues are donated to people who reach lives in other countries). I think it preserves the Ohana that Danjo was talking about while continuing the tradition and training. If we all charged a million dollars a month our arts would only have a few people to carry on the flag. If we are
to continue out arts we must consider that our martial ancestors often charged nothing for training, at worst it was a barter relationship for necessary commodities to sustain life. My current instructor charges me very little for the level of instruction given, it has become more of a Ohana thing than a "professional" relationship. I am looking forward to talking about this at the 2011 Kenpo Ohana in September to try and motivate the "seniors" with all the red to adopt the "ohana" mindset (I am not saying that all seniors do not do this, in fact several I have met are the very pillars of "ohana" in our community)

My rambled and ignorant .02 cents!

Chris

 

[Wo Fat]

The more one charges, the more the "Customers" will come to expect. They will expect to be promoted (or have their kids promoted) at a certain pace. Try to fail a student in a test when they have paid a lot of money for the testing fee and see what happens. They will expect to be treated like they are your employers etc. etc. I'd rather have students than customers even if that means teaching for free. That way, we can train how we want to, kick out whomever we want to, run the class like we want to, promote only those that deserve it and test when we want to. If they dont like it, they know where the door is. It keeps the art pure. Those that stay and persevere are Ohana. Those that don't learned something about themselves too.

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The key word is "customer". And it seems that the McDojo industry has convinced the customer that they are always right. Maybe I'm not devaluing the art ... maybe the McDojo's are.

 

[Carol]

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The key word is "customer". And it seems that the McDojo industry has convinced the customer that they are always right. Maybe I'm not devaluing the art ... maybe the McDojo's are.

Absolutely. You aren't devaluing the art for teaching for less, or free, but the folks that are promoting black belts with crappy stances and poor execution...that's devaluing the art itself.

I hope that something will work out for your school :asian:

 

[Twin Fist]

well, if you charge nothing, some students will not value the art. You charge them something, even if it is a token, they will show up. Free? they can stay home and not train, cuz they are not invested.....

 

[MJS]

The more one charges, the more the "Customers" will come to expect. They will expect to be promoted (or have their kids promoted) at a certain pace. Try to fail a student in a test when they have paid a lot of money for the testing fee and see what happens. They will expect to be treated like they are your employers etc. etc. I'd rather have students than customers even if that means teaching for free. That way, we can train how we want to, kick out whomever we want to, run the class like we want to, promote only those that deserve it and test when we want to. If they dont like it, they know where the door is. It keeps the art pure. Those that stay and persevere are Ohana. Those that don't learned something about themselves too.

Good points!! This is why these things should be clearly explained to the perspective students up front. IMO, a quality school will do just that. If people dont like what they hear, they're free to leave. You're right...it keeps the art pure, and those that do stay, are most likely there for reasons other than to get a belt every month.