Glass ceiling for non-Koreans, or a time issue?

[IcemanSK]

It's hard not to notice that there are fewer non-Korean 7th-9th Dans in Taekwondo. I'm wondering if the reason why is that there is a non-Korean bias ( or a glass ceiling that doesn't allow for more non-Korean higher rank) or is it simply a matter of time. (That is, fewer non-Koreans have had the kind of time in Taekwondo to achieve those ranks).

 

[stoneheart]

If you mean in Kukkiwon, the dearth of super high American ranks seems to be true enough, and we would be naive to think that bias doesn't come into play at least in some level. Shotokan Karate allegedly has the same issues with senior Westerners being ranked lower in the JKA org.

I wonder if these international organizations are really relevant, even at a high dan level. I've heard it said that the best karate is being practiced by Westerners these days anyway. I'm not well-travelled enough to have an informed opinion on that statement, but it doesn't sound too unreasonable to me with the diaspora of qualified instructors from the East to America and Europe. Eventually those instructors' work have to start bearing fruit, right?

 

[Kacey]

I think it's some of each... I know that GM Sereff started TKD in the early 60's; Master Lang (VIII Dan) started in 1965 - they were two of the very first to start in the ITF. There are also quite a few master instructors in the USTF (which, per ITF guidelines, means 7th Dan and above) - although I'm not quite sure how many, as I left the USTF some time ago.

 

[zDom]

I think it's some of each...

I agree.

But it is not absolute, in any case.

Another good example is GM Ed Sell of the Chung Do Kwan, 9th dan, and his wife, GM Brenda Sell, who is up at 8th or 9th dan, too.

 

[exile]

If you mean in Kukkiwon, the dearth of super high American ranks seems to be true enough, and we would be naive to think that bias doesn't come into play at least in some level. Shotokan Karate allegedly has the same issues with senior Westerners being ranked lower in the JKA org.

I wonder if these international organizations are really relevant, even at a high dan level. I've heard it said that the best karate is being practiced by Westerners these days anyway. I'm not well-travelled enough to have an informed opinion on that statement, but it doesn't sound too unreasonable to me with the diaspora of qualified instructors from the East to America and Europe. Eventually those instructors' work have to start bearing fruit, right?

Interesting point, Stoneheart... this question might actually be worth its own thread, you know?

 

[Spookey]

Dear All,

I certainly believe there are several variables in play. Politics play a role in all martial arts, true! But, there is both the time issue and the issue of location and availability!

It makes great since that the JKA for instance will have fewer non Japanese "Upper Classmen" so to speak. Why, both time and location!

Take for instance the availability for those foreign to the US to attent Universities here in the U.S. They can attend, but is it a glass ceiling that has allowed far more American citizens to obtain degrees from local universities? Nope, it is a matter of time and location. Those foreigners that have sponsorships, the proper political ties, and or the right financial setting have opportunities. Others do not...

Just my take on the matter. My father (an American) was among those 647 persons promoted to the Instructor level by the Oh Do Kwan (Former Military Training Gym of ROK). Why, he trained hard and had ability...no wait, he was simply lucky enough to be stationed in Vietnam in the same compound as the Oh Do Kwan instructors group for the entire country! So, it was a little of both. This same American was scheduled to test for Sho-Dan in Shorin Ryu Kara-te in front of Zenrio Shimobukura prior to his death. Again, effort and ability, but also a large factor is that his instructor was a direct student of Shimobokura sensei!

Taekwon
Spooks

 

[Brad Dunne]

As has been stated, politics and money play a huge part. On the political side, a former instructors Master would not promote him to 4th Dan, for the Master felt threatened that his student would start his own school and if he was a 4th, then he could promote his students up to 3rd without the Masters involvement. Bottom line, the Master thought he would loose money, so no promotion. If you think that he could have found another Master to align with, well again politics, for he found that the Korean Masters seem to have an unwritten code, you don't take my students and I will not take your students. In fact, they come into an area and divide it up and they will not cross boundaries.

Now if you should happen to be able to get past the 4th Dan status, it becomes mandatory to attend the Kukkiwon for ranks at 7th and above. States as much on the Kukkiwon web site. I don't know many folks in the arts that have that kind of money and available time to go visit Korea for a week or two, just to get a piece of paper. So yet another obstruction for many. I'm sure there are probably ways to get around some of this stuff, but now we're back to the political game and somebody has to like you, which means that you must inturn be doing something for them. If it's a Korean, then that equates to making them money. Such a debilitating cycle for anyone who has the art/discipline as their primary focus.

:soapbox: Sorry, could'nt help myself..........

 

[matt.m]

Interesting thread. I have seen 5th - 7th dans in hapkido and tae kwon do that are non korean, for every one of the master and grandmasters that are non korean I have seen 10 7th dan and higher koreans.

 

[TraditionalTKD]

I don't believe there is a glass ceiling for westerners. There might be plenty of westerners or Americans who think they deserve high rank, and plenty of Instructors who practice rank inflation. But 7th Dan, 8th Dan, and 9th Dan are very high honors not given lightly. Your average non-Korean Instructor probably has not been involved long enough, might not have the right credibility, and quite possibly doesn't take it as seriously as the high level Koreans for whom Tae Kwon Do is a proud part of Korean culture.
And being a top ranked tournament fighter does not qualify you to be a 7th or 8th Dan. That's just being an athlete.

 

[stoneheart]

I don't believe there is a glass ceiling for westerners. There might be plenty of westerners or Americans who think they deserve high rank, and plenty of Instructors who practice rank inflation. But 7th Dan, 8th Dan, and 9th Dan are very high honors not given lightly. Your average non-Korean Instructor probably has not been involved long enough, might not have the right credibility, and quite possibly doesn't take it as seriously as the high level Koreans for whom Tae Kwon Do is a proud part of Korean culture.
And being a top ranked tournament fighter does not qualify you to be a 7th or 8th Dan. That's just being an athlete.

I'd say the bold text may indicate some bias on your part. No offense intended.

 

[Brad Dunne]

But 7th Dan, 8th Dan, and 9th Dan are very high honors not given lightly.


That may be, or should I say, should be the case, but the evidence that stares folks right in the face is opposite. In my region of the country, there are a boat load of 7th, 8th and 9th Dans, that are Kukkiwon certified but go against the actual Kukkiwon age standards. 9th Dan age requirement is 60 and older. I personally know one 9th Dan - Korean, that is under 50. I've seen many Koreans at tournaments that look no older than mid to late 30's and were presented as 7th's and above. I can count on half of one hand, the number of westerners I've seen in over 25 years that are Kukkiwon certified at those ranks. Perhaps in other sections of the country, they have been more fortunate, but not here in the plains states.

 

[Miles]

Brad,

Could some of those folks be claiming Kwan rank as their Kukkiwon rank? I have seen many instances where Kwan rank is 1-2 dan higher than Kukkiwon rank.

There are more and more non-Koreans who are achieving these high dan.

Miles

 

[terryl965]

Brad,

Could some of those folks be claiming Kwan rank as their Kukkiwon rank? I have seen many instances where Kwan rank is 1-2 dan higher than Kukkiwon rank.

There are more and more non-Koreans who are achieving these high dan.

Miles

I'm thinking the same Kwon versus Kukkiwon

 

[ajs1976]

From the Kukkiwon website: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01

From article 8:

5th to 6th Dan - 5 years - 30 years and above
6th to 7th Dan - 6 year - 36 years and above
7th to 8th Dan - 8 year - 44 years and above
8th to 9th Dan - 9 year - 53 years and above
9th to 10th Dan - N/A - 60 years and above

From that it looks like someone could be a 7th Dan at 36 and a 9th Dan at 53.

From Article 7:

4. Applicants worldwide for 8th and 9th Dan promotion should take physical performance test at the
Kukkiwon. The test is conducted in every quarter of the year. Test of applicants from outside Korea
for 7th or lower Dan can be conducted under the joint inspection of the local higher Dan holder and
the member of the test committee dispatched by the Kukkiwon to the country or the region
concerned.

Traveling to Korea for the test for 8th and 9th would probably hold a number of people back.

 

[IcemanSK]

From the Kukkiwon website: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01

From article 8:



From that it looks like someone could be a 7th Dan at 36 and a 9th Dan at 53.

From Article 7:



Traveling to Korea for the test for 8th and 9th would probably hold a number of people back.

I've wondered about this, too. But then again, if you're that high in rank, you probably own/run a school. Therefore, it would be a business expense for you. But it still makes me wonder if the distance holds some back.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Kwan or Kukkiwon, or should it be Kwan vs Kukkiwon. Now the following is nothing more than my own personal opinion. If the Kwan rankings are higher, dosen't that unto itself deminish the importance of Kukkiwon? How would you like the option of either obtaining a school Black Belt certificate or would you like to have a Kwan certificate or would you prefer a Kukkiwon certificate or perhaps any combination of the three or all three? Your choice, just be prepared to shell out some bucks. Which certificate would be more relevent? OK, one must have a Kukkiwon to go to the olympics, but one would assume that only about less than 1 percent would/could assend to that level. So for the other 99.5% of us, which certificate is more relevent? Perhaps, just perhaps, this is one of the reasons that there is a plethora ultracool ) of TKD organizations around today. Some folks came to the realization that they could'nt assend the ladder, so the Koreans can have the Kukkiwon, we'll go and do our own thing too. Somewhat of a rant, but it ties into the question - does it deminish the importance of Kukkiwon or does it actually answer the question - Kukkiwon really isn't that important in the first place?

As for the generalization of my prior post, as to the many high dans I've encountered, they very well could have been Kwan ranked, but that distinction was never presented upon their introductions. I've just seen and witnessed and heard of too many mystical transformations and slight of hand dealings with regards to rank by Korean Instructors.

 

[Miles]

Kwan or Kukkiwon, or should it be Kwan vs Kukkiwon. Now the following is nothing more than my own personal opinion. If the Kwan rankings are higher, dosen't that unto itself deminish the importance of Kukkiwon?

No, I think if the Kwan rank is higher, it shows the Kukkiwon is more difficult to achieve and is therefore more important.

Some folks came to the realization that they could'nt assend the ladder, so the Koreans can have the Kukkiwon, we'll go and do our own thing too. Somewhat of a rant, but it ties into the question - does it deminish the importance of Kukkiwon or does it actually answer the question - Kukkiwon really isn't that important in the first place?

It is okay to rant once in awhile. The folks who didn't climb the ladder may have decided that they couldn't (or wouldn't) and opted out of the Kukkiwon system. That is their choice. But the Kukkiwon represents the unification of the Kwans because we are stronger when we are working together. So, from my perspective, it is very important, but that's merely my perspective.

I've just seen and witnessed and heard of too many mystical transformations and slight of hand dealings with regards to rank by Korean Instructors.

I've heard of the mystical airport promotion, but know of no one personally who received same.

Miles

 

[Brad Dunne]

the Kukkiwon is more difficult to achieve and is therefore more important.

In what respect is the Kukkiwon more difficult to achieve? As I eluded to in my prior post, the 3 for one sale, all the training accomplished is the same. The only difference is the personal preference of the person obtaining the Dan ranking. The Kukkiwon has laid out the minimum requirements for their rankings and most folks would agree that the vast majority of schools/instructors go beyond those minimum standards. So under that stipulation, to my way of thinking, that would make the school/Kwan requirements superior to those of the Kukkiwon, which inturn, would again to my way of thinking, make the Kwan certificate more important. To further reinforce this opinion, we'll use the initial main focus of the Kukkiwon and that was to unite the various Kwans under one banner. The Kukkiwon in reality is nothing more than a clearing house for issuing rank certificates that were forwarded to them from the Kwan instructors. Kwan instructors, just by the fact that they list themselves higher in rank via the Kwan, have more regard to that ranking than to the Kukkiwons, in my opinion.

 

[Miles]

Brad,

My understanding of the Kwan vs Kukkiwon rank and some of the other issues you've brought up are in this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26005&highlight=Kukkiwon


Miles

 

[TraditionalTKD]

There are two major problems facing world Tae Kwon Do Instructors (actually more than two, but two I'll address):

1. Rank inflation
2. Credibility of Instructors

As Brad stated, he kwnows boatloads of Instructors passing themselves off as 7th, 8th, and 9th Dans. A quick glance of any Yellow Pages, and I do mean any, will quickly show many Instructors, Korean and non-Korean, passing themselves off as 7th, 8th, and 9th Dan Masters and Grandmasters. Many of these guys are not that old either. There are a plethora of claimed high Dan Instructors. Legitimate Dan holders is another matter.
Keep in mind, it is not hard at all to forge or obtain forged and phony certificates, and get shady Instructors to vouch for you. World Head of Family Sokeship anyone? Pay the fees, and presto, you have the backing the best Instructors money can buy. Which leads to me to point 2.
2. Having an Instructor claim 7th, 8th, and 9th Dan is one thing. Having an Instructor with the proper credibility to justify those ranks is quite another. How many Instructors have I met or read about who created their own organization, then certified themselves through it? Many. Very easy way to obtain 8th and 9th Dan. Simply create the _______ Tae Kwon Do League/Brotherhood/Association/ etc., issue your certificates through it, and you get all the ego building of claimed 9th Dan recognition without all the anoying credibility building over 50 years that goes along with it.