Gichin Funokoshi and Hwang Kee

[Master Todd Miller]

It is what I call "martial theatre". Nothing wrong with that, actually, until one decides to fall back on such theatre as though it were something more authentic. Then, it simply will not hold up. Nobody says people can't put on uniforms, do Okinawan kata, wave around Chinese staffs, use Japanese structure and what-not. All I am asking is that folks not confuse somebodys' imaginings about Korean martial culture with the historical reality. Hope this is of some help, FWIW


What makesthe Korean Arts Korean? It is the Korean culture, some things have been adopted from the Japanese due to the Occupation but arts like Taekwondo, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido are still Korean Arts, not too difficult.

Take care

 

[Reed]

Dear Bruce and David:

I think that what we as Tang Soo Do practitioners see is a style that has gone from Okinawin shuri-te and Shotokan and Shotukan and has become a style that is 80% kicks and much more open and versatile. I would also say that it's not about whether it came from Okinawa or China, but the fact that it has become a style that is universal and open to change. My first TSD Master did things that to this day after 25 years I haven't seen and so I know if you train hard and long you will achieve your goals. I know a lot of people think that Grand Master Hwang Kee misled them but during the colonial rule Koreans were deprived of many rights, including freedom of assembly and association, free speech and an independent press. A Japanese school system was introduced where subjects such as Korean history and language were dropped in favor of their Japanese equivalents.

Modern transport and communication networks were established across the nation. This facilitated Japanese commerce. Koreans were barred from engaging in similar activities. Many farmers were stripped of their land after failing to register their ownership with the colonial rulers. Joint ownership as it was common in Korea at the time was not recognized by Japan. After the former Korean emperor Gojong had died, anti-Japanese rallies took place nationwide on 1 March 1919 (the March 1st (Samil) Movement. A declaration of independence was read in Seoul. It is estimated that 2 million people took part in these rallies. This peaceful protest was brutally suppressed by the colonial rulers: an estimated 47,000 were arrested, 7,500 killed and 16,000 wounded.

So if I was Hwank Kee it might be hard for me to give them any credit at all.

 

[okinawagojuryu]

I agree if I was supressed by another nation , I wouldnt wanna give them credit neither . I do disagree about TSD being more versatile however . There was much Hwang didnt learn , because he did not have a teacher .

David

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear David:

This makes absolutely perfect sense to me and is exactly the point I am having such a hard time getting my head around.

a.) With all the terrible damage to Korean culture, why would any Korean in his right mind want to have ANYTHING to do with Japanese culture? When the Germans were kicked out of France, the French rounded up stragglers and collaborators and began executing them. Women who fraternized with Germans were shaved.

b.) IF a Korean WERE to accept some bits of Japanese culture why wouldn't this be marginalized to no more than a role as an additional influence on the those activities identified as traditional arts. For instance Hwang Kee examined both the MYTBTJ and the Okinawan kata. Why did he make the Okinawan kata the center piece of his art rather than the MYTBTJ?

c.) The Koreans have their own martial traditions and martial science. Why weren't arts like Aikido and Kendo, Karate and Kyudo sent packing? Why wasn't a greater emphasis placed on KOREAN traditions? I still can't figure this one out. Thoughts? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[The Kai]

b.) IF a Korean WERE to accept some bits of Japanese culture why wouldn't this be marginalized to no more than a role as an additional influence on the those activities identified as traditional arts. For instance Hwang Kee examined both the MYTBTJ and the Okinawan kata. Why did he make the Okinawan kata the center piece of his art rather than the MYTBTJ?

It is hard to create a SysTem of martial Arts from drawings in a book, Which BTW I have never seen, except for clippings,If you know where one could get a copy let me know. Is theMYTBTJ written in a Language Hwang Kee could understand. How much was devoted to empty handed arts or military arts?

c.) The Koreans have their own martial traditions and martial science. Why weren't arts like Aikido and Kendo, Karate and Kyudo sent packing? Why wasn't a greater emphasis placed on KOREAN traditions? I still can't figure this one out. Thoughts? Anyone? [/QUOTE]
There were no Korean Traditions that is way they went with the art form of a hated occupier. Send karate packing, there goes TKD. Keep karate, modify karate, find some old documents place in a blender. Walla- Korean tradtional arts!

Best Wishes,

Bruce[/QUOTE]

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kai:

Maybe thats one of the places that we keep banging into this subject. I don't understand all this talk about creating a "system". When a person joins the Army, is that joining a "system". Is there a US-Marine-Corp-Ryu? I am rapidly coming to believe that Westerners have a very corrupted idea of Korean martial science and its pursuit, and I don't think that the Korean nationals themselves have helped any. As I mentioned earlier, there is no proprietary "system" of Korean martial arts. All this crap about this and that "style" was borrowed from the Japanese so as to keep the members of one organization or another sending their monies in a particular direction. What makes a "Korean art" a "Korean" art is the cultural underpinnings that hold it together. Swinging a hyup-do and swinging a naginata can be very similar mechanically. However, the Japanese naginata-ka is motivated by a different take on what makes a warrior and the code by which he acts. The same can be said of a Korean, or a Chinese or an Indonesian etc etc etc.

Take a look at the MYTBTJ (you can get a copy translated into English by Dr. Sang Kim in 2000 through Turtle Press). Its a manual that covers what the conscript army of Korea needed to know about fighting as of 1795 and was the 3rd revisions of this work going back as far as the end of the Imjin War in 1598. It identifies the weapons, how they are constructed and the techniques that are performed with them. There are even tapes done by the Kyong Dang reconstructing the various methods, forms and techniques. And if people don't want to go that route there are the Ship Pal Gi people who still train in the 18 traditional weapons. With so much material I simply don't understand why folks keep coming back to the Japanese material like its the only game in town.

I don't know if Hwang Kee could read Chinese or Hanja---- I don't know if he could read at all. Maybe he went with the Japanese stuff because it had better pictures. I just don't know. I DO know that the Kwon Bup chapter of the MYTBTJ is based on the 32 fighting techniques of General Qi-s JIN XIAO SHIN SHU and the postures were reorganized to be mutually nullifying in the MYTBTJ. The text tells us that much. And if Hwang Kee could organize hyung based on the KWON BUP material there is no reason he need ever have used the Japanese kata. It hard to know what went on in the head of a guy who died a while back. I guess what I am interested to know is why people are not doing more to follow Korean martial culture choosing instead to bend Japanese traditions to their agenda. FWIW.

BTW: I am leaving for Korea today and may or may not be able to check my e-mail for the next 12 days. If I can I will.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[The Kai]

mutually nullifying , What do you mean by this phrase?
Todd

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

By "mutually nullifying" I mean that the boxing methods originally taught by Gen Qi's staff to his rural conscripts were intended to be used to execute sound self-defense at those times at which a person was unable to use his primary weapon.

When incorporated into the MYTBTJ as as the Kwon Bup Chapter the individual methods were paired in such a way that one technique or method was cancelled out by its partner technique. Needless to say this produced a series of paired actions which exercized the conscripts but did not instruct them with material that resulted in a clear dominance over their opponent. Anyone seeking to use a boxing method would probably find learning techniques resulting in a clear winner and loser desireable, yes? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I headrd that Hwand Kee actually studied the forms out of a book! A for runner of the distance learning programs! Wheather iti s true or not I am not sure - There was a article in Black Belt magazine a few years back

Todd

There were some Shotokan books pre-dating the war, but I don't think you could have learned the forms from them.


Regards,


Steve

 

[The Kai]

In his book the making of Tang Sos Do (I believe) by Hwang Kee he states he learned the forms from a text on Shotokan

 

[okinawagojuryu]

There may have been Shotokan books out before the war , but none depicted Gojushiho , or Rohai ; and there is no Rohai in Shotokan . So Hwang had to learn these forms somewhere .

David

 

[glad2bhere]

Funakoshis' KARATE-DO KYOHAN was published before WW II, I think. I know that ROHAI Kata is executed in Shotokan but I don't think it is called that. Funakoshi was known to have performed a great number of kata but not all of them were incorporated into his Shotokan curriculum (See: Old copies of DRAGON TIMES---- this material has been covered many times there). FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[okinawagojuryu]

Within Shotokan , they do a form called Meikyo , that is based on the Itosu Rohai's . However the TSD version is based on Matsumura Rohai . I think I might of found one of the books he studied from , ck out this link http://seinenkai.com/articles/swift/swift-tidbits4.html . It was published prior to the formation of the MDK , it contains Gojushiho ; and the author was a student of Ohtsuku Sensei founder of Wado Ryu , as well as Funakoshi . I mention that he was a student of Wado Ryu , because TSD's blocking methods are very similar to that of Wado Ryu . Both styles tend to have a higher level - Middle block . I have many books from Okinawa , Japan , & published here in the US ; But , none other than this one was published prior to the formation of the MDK , that contain Gojushiho . This still leaves Rohai , which he might of learned from Byung In Lee , but who knows ?

David