George Zmmerman trial begins...

[Tgace]

If you want argue legalese over the words "stalking," "refusal" or "escalation", you're barking up the wrong tree. This isn't a legal scholar site and I'm not a lawyer and I'm not questioning the outcome of the trial. If I were debating the outcome of the trial, it would be different, but I'm neither lawyer nor a cop, so please don't expect me to speak or write like a lawyer or a cop in what is a casual discussion about a current event.

In this context words mean something. If someone is going to "casually discuss" this case and say that Martin may have been justified in using force on Zimmerman because Zimmerman was "stalking" him...implying Zimmerman was doing something illegal...you are using a term that is inaccurate and skews the discussion.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Discussing escalation of force levels is all about the legality of it.....

I get where you're coming from. I really do. I have no idea if you get where I'm coming from, though it doesn't seem that you do. I've responded with several posts spelling out exactly what I mean, and I cannot think of any way to communicate it to you more clearly. I also don't have any more observations of this subject (the Martin shooting/Zimmerman trial) than what I've already put forward, nor am I intent on getting others to come around to my way of thinking.

So I'm going to respectfully bow out and unsubscribe from this thread.

For what it's worth, I appreciate your responses.

 

[ballen0351]

I carry a gun.

I wouldn't have followed him. I wouldn't have gotten out of my vehicle. I'd have called 911, and continued to observe him from my vehicle.

I wouldn't have gotten lost in my own neighborhood. I wouldn't have had to get out of the vehicle to "see what street I was on" in my own neighborhood.

I probably wouldn't have carried my pistol-it's against the guidelines for most neighborhood watches-just as I don't carry it into establishments that serve alcohol in the state of NM, as it's against the law (so I don't carry everywhere, only "almost everywhere.")

If I'd followed him, I wouldn't have gotten close enough for him to identify me in a phone call-he wouldn't have known I was following him, but I wouldn't have followed him on foot in the first place.

I wouldn't have followed him. I'd have done the prudent thing and heeded the advice of the 911 dispatcher, rather than my frustration at how these @#$^As always get away with it.

So, how do I know George Zimmerman is an incompetent, imprudent idiot who should never carry a firearm again? He shot someone whom he wouldn't have had to shoot, if not for his own foolish, reckless and imprudent actions. They were neither measured, well judged or prudent. This is all I've ever really had to say about this case from the very beginning-that the wannabe cop was off the rez on this one.

Should. Never.Carry. A. Gun. Again.

(But is within his legal rights to do so, and so he shall....and so he shall....)

And I also carry a gun and had I seen a strange teen in my gated neighborhood at night in the rain I would follow him. In fact Id do more then follow Id walk up and ask him who he is and what he's doing. So guess I shouldn't carry a gun by your standards either. The guys done it many times in the past and nobody got hurt. Sometimes things just happen. I've been to 100s of 911 hang up calls yet only once have I shot anyone. Sometimes things just happen.

 

[ballen0351]

That actually isn't what I'm saying. Not even close.

I guess I'm reading it wrong or misunderstand your point. Sorry I will reread it

 

[arnisador]

And no, I do not buy that the 'kid' was scared, frightened or otherwise intimidated by the 'creepy a$$ cracka' following him. He wasn't wearing high heels...he could have run home - that's what scared kids do! Or call the cops.

I'm not at all sure that that's what scared kids do.

Seems there is that one little problem in the story:
Zimmermann loses him and next thing they are in a scuffle and Zimmermann is at the bottom.

Even if GZ told a fully accurate story, who knows what was in TM's mind? As someone else pointed out, maybe he didn't want this guy following him to his house, fearing GZ was the criminal in this story.

 

[arnisador]

So, how do I know George Zimmerman is an incompetent, imprudent idiot who should never carry a firearm again? He shot someone whom he wouldn't have had to shoot, if not for his own foolish, reckless and imprudent actions. They were neither measured, well judged or prudent. This is all I've ever really had to say about this case from the very beginning-that the wannabe cop was off the rez on this one.

Should. Never.Carry. A. Gun. Again.

(But is within his legal rights to do so, and so he shall....and so he shall....)

Agreed all around--I feel less safe knowing someone reckless like this is armed, but under current law his gun should be returned.

 

[arnisador]

Discussing escalation of force levels is all about the legality of it.....

If you're coming at me with a boxcutter and I draw a katana, nothing may have changed legally but I'd sure as heck say the situation just changed. If you drop your boxcutter and draw a pistol and I drop my katana and pull out an assault rifle, again, I'd say it's changed again...even if all 4 weapons represent deadly physical force.

 

[arnisador]

And I also carry a gun and had I seen a strange teen in my gated neighborhood at night in the rain I would follow him. In fact Id do more then follow Id walk up and ask him who he is and what he's doing.

You're a LEO--trained and authorized for this. No problem.

 

[billc]

Even if GZ told a fully accurate story, who knows what was in TM's mind? As someone else pointed out, maybe he didn't want this guy following him to his house, fearing GZ was the criminal in this story.

Then he keeps walking, gets off the phone with his friend, and calls 911 to get the police.

I am still interested that people are hung up with Zimmerman getting out of his car. In his own neighborhood, on the phone with 911 with the police on the way. Apparently not initiating actual contact with Martin. If what Zimmerman says is true, he didn't even initiate face to face contact. Considering how long the fight went on, from witness testimony, he didn't even shoot first, he got pummeled, a lot, before the shot was fired, and only when the only person he could see who could have helped him did what everyone else said Zimmerman should do, stayed in his house and went to call 911...when the guy didn't help but closed his door on Zimmerman, that is when the weapon was pulled and the shot fired. Go to legalinsurrection, they have all the witness testimony, and you can see how long Zimmerman struggled with Martin before the shot was fired, so no, he didn't just shoot this large teenager. There was a prolonged struggle, as fights go, and the only help on the scene didn't help but stayed inside his home and called 911. Perhaps, if one of the witnesses had stepped outside, Martin would be alive.

 

[Big Don]

You're a LEO--trained and authorized for this. No problem.

Here is a LEO firearms instructor

Zimmerman is authorized as well, he has a valid Florida concealed weapons permit and, then there is that Second Amendment thing...

 

[ballen0351]

You're a LEO--trained and authorized for this. No problem.

It doesn't matter if down tnif I wasn't a cop is do it because I give a crap about my neighbors and its the right thing to do. Hell my mom has done that very thing several times she has chased teens down the street after watching then do something wrong. Some people still care.

 

[arnisador]

It doesn't matter if down tnif I wasn't a cop is do it because I give a crap about my neighbors and its the right thing to do. Hell my mom has done that very thing several times she has chased teens down the street after watching then do something wrong. Some people still care.

A lot of people still care--most of them are not ending up shooting kids who live in their neighborhood. We could do with less of GZ's macho form of caring. This is not the only way to care about your neighborhood. If GZ had taken the much more time-consuming approach of trying to be a Big Brother to local kids at risk, how much more could've been accomplished?

 

[arnisador]

Then he keeps walking, gets off the phone with his friend, and calls 911 to get the police

...as a typical teenager would, of course. Good advice but let's remember that kids are kids.

I am still interested that people are hung up with Zimmerman getting out of his car. In his own neighborhood, on the phone with 911 with the police on the way.

Well, the answer is: For the reasons you just mentioned. He was there and on the phone with 911 with the police on the way. Good time to wait for the pros to handle it.

Incidentally, is it so that the police were truly directly en route there, or had they just been told by the dispatcher to check it out at some time that night or something?

 

[Big Don]

...as a typical teenager would, of course. Good advice but let's remember that kids are kids.



Well, the answer is: For the reasons you just mentioned. He was there and on the phone with 911 with the police on the way. Good time to wait for the pros to handle it.

Incidentally, is it so that the police were truly directly en route there, or had they just been told by the dispatcher to check it out at some time that night or something?

When seconds count the police are only minutes away

 

[arnisador]

When seconds count the police are only minutes away

Did seconds count in the GZ/TM case? Are you saying that's why he had to leave his car?

 

[billc]

The reason Martin died is he attacked Zimmerman. That is the truth. He had the bad luck to pin Zimmerman to the ground. Had they both been standing, throwing punches, he would still be alive today. By pinning Zimmerman on the edge of that sidewalk and pounding on him he forced Zimmerman to use his gun.

Zimmerman wasn't a macho guy that night and had no intention of confronting Martin, face to face. How do I know? Because if he had no background of confronting people he called 911 on. As people have made fun of him for calling 911 so often, never before, in all those calls had he confronted those he called on and he never approached the others in any way, not to question them or to hold them for the police. On the phone with 911 he said, and it is recorded, that he lost Martin and couldn't find him...encounter over, everyone safe and sound...until Martin came back. Leaving the car didn't cause the problem. A drug using and violent prone teenager caused the problem.

Another thing, Martin approached Zimmerman in his car, circled it and then walked off. If Zimmerman had intended to confront Martin, he would have done it there and then, and not let Martin get so far ahead of him that he lost sight of him. The verbal confrontation would have been started then. The problem started when Martin, a drug user and violent teen, decided to start a confrontation with Zimmerman...that is what led to his death.

If GZ had taken the much more time-consuming approach of trying to be a Big Brother to local kids at risk,

You do know he was mentoring two kids, he checked on his neighbors, in particular the woman who had to teenagers rob her house while she was barricaded in her bedroom, and apparently was helpful to others as well. He called out the police for beating a black homeless man, and did other things to help people. So helpful the Neighborhood watch liason offered him a spot on the civillian patrol, where they would have given him his own car and a uniform...which he turned down.

You can find out all of this stuff by watching the coverage of all the prosecution witnesses...who pretty much said he was a helpful guy in the community. Then you can watch the defense for the people the prosecution didn't call to see everyone else say he was a helpful guy...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This is just such an interesting situation.


I wouldn't have gotten out of my vehicle to follow Martin. I would have followed in the vehicle from a distance and maintained contact with the dispatcher until the police arrived. I probably would have circled around several times in my vehicle if needed. I know this is what I would have done because I have done the same thing in the past 0n more than a few occcasions. I think that Zimmerman from a surveillance and personal safety point really screwed up and the situation escalated thus ending with Martin's death. Having said that from the evidence it would appear with what we know that Zimmerman did act within the accordance of the law and as such was found not guilty by the jury. Still that does not mean that he isn't and idiot or that I would want him on my neighborhood watch. (I wouldn't) Nor do I think he is a great person to be carrying around a gun based on his past history before the Martin incident and of course with the Martin death. However, legally he is going to get his gun back and be able to carry and as Elder999 pointed out he shall carry a gun in the future. Which brings me at least to a point that while I am a strong advocate for CCW's and the ability to carry there are however some people that should never be allowed to carry a gun or for that matter breed! We all know that this is true!!!

 

[arnisador]

You do know he was mentoring two kids, he checked on his neighbors, in particular the woman who had to teenagers rob her house while she was barricaded in her bedroom, and apparently was helpful to others as well. He called out the police for beating a black homeless man, and did other things to help people.

That's good.

You can find out all of this stuff by watching the coverage of all the prosecution witnesses...

I'm employed.

 

[ballen0351]

A lot of people still care--most ofhappennding up shooting kids who live in their neighborhood. We could do with less of GZ's macho form of caring. This is not the only way to care about your neighborhood. If GZ had taken the much more time-consuming approach of trying to be a Big Brother to local kids at risk, how much more could've been accomplished?

He did mentor kids...............and again sometimes things happen. I dont go to work planning to shoot anyone but sometimes it happens. I don't go to work planning on getting shot but things happen

 

[ballen0351]

This is just such an interesting situation.


I wouldn't have gotten out of my vehicle to follow Martin. I would have followed in the vehicle from a distance and maintained contact with the dispatcher until the police arrived. I probably would have circled around several times in my vehicle if needed. I know this is what I would have done because I have done the same thing in the past 0n more than a few occcasions. I think that Zimmerman from a surveillance and personal safety point really screwed up and the situation escalated thus ending with Martin's death. Having said that from the evidence it would appear with what we know that Zimmerman did act within the accordance of the law and as such was found not guilty by the jury. Still that does not mean that he isn't and idiot or that I would want him on my neighborhood watch. (I wouldn't) Nor do I think he is a great person to be carrying around a gun based on his past history before the Martin incident and of course with the Martin death. However, legally he is going to get his gun back and be able to carry and as Elder999 pointed out he shall carry a gun in the future. Which brings me at least to a point that while I am a strong advocate for CCW's and the ability to carry there are however some people that should never be allowed to carry a gun or for that matter breed! We all know that this is true!!!

And I would follow and get out of the car? What's your point there's lots of ways to do things. 99% of the time nothing bad happens