Fundamental pillars of self-defense?

[drop bear]

Is the mind of humility relevant at all? I mean acceptance of limitation that the limitation might be overcome? what do you think? Jx

Yes.

I know a few street fighters. And if you engage in enough violence eventually you are going to get bashed.

The better street fighters I have met are philosophical about it.

I think it frees your mind from doubt a bit and allows you to act a bit more.

 

[drop bear]

Nah. It's a matter of physics.

If I can deliver a kick of (X) amount of force, and it exceeds what is required to break a knee, then I'm capable taking a person's knee out, whether I've done it before or not is immaterial.

That people's knees are different (my knee might require (X) amount of force, while you're might require (X)+1 amount of force) and the factors that go into generating that force: speed, mass, etc., are variable from kicker to kicker, is a factor, but an immaterial one: if I can deliver a kick of sufficient force-greater than that required for any human knee- I can take out a knee....that being said, if one watches muay thai, they will see knees survive a variety of kicks, delivered by people who kick for a living (though no front kicks or side kicks to the knee are permitted)-while the knee is a legitimate target for self-defense, "taking the knee out" is not necessarily a likely goal.

In any case, if I can deliver a kick that generates a force greater than 3558 newtons, or roughly about 800 lbs. of pressure (less than a good punch, really) to the knee at the precise structural moment that the patella is vulnerable (i.e., when the knee is locked and straight, or in an equivalent-and rare-posture) I can "take out a knee." Period. Full stop. Don't have to do it, to know that I can......etc., etc., etc., yet another example of things you might think that you know, when you don't.

Knee kicks hurt like the dickens but are almost never taken out. We allow front kicks and side kicks. And even a good round kick to the knee will mess it up.

I don't know the math. But people are kicking as hard as they can. So whatever that is in newton to what a knee can take is something you can work out.

I don't really rate the science. Normally it only ever factors in half the variables. And is time better spent kicking people.

 

[ballen0351]

Knee kicks hurt like the dickens but are almost never taken out. We allow front kicks and side kicks. And even a good round kick to the knee will mess it up.

I don't know the math. But people are kicking as hard as they can. So whatever that is in newton to what a knee can take is something you can work out.

I don't really rate the science. Normally it only ever factors in half the variables. And is time better spent kicking people.

So which pillar does this fall under?

 

[drop bear]

So which pillar does this fall under?

The pillar of better basics done well. Your core fighting process should be proven, effective and tested through alive training. And not rationalised.

You are better of using a known technique that may be less effective than relying on a super technique you are not sure of.

Once that is sorted out. Then you can go crazy making stuff up on the fly.

 

[ballen0351]

The pillar of better basics done well. Your core fighting process should be proven, effective and tested through alive training. And not rationalised.

You are better of using a known technique that may be less effective than relying on a super technique you are not sure of.

Once that is sorted out. Then you can go crazy making stuff up on the fly.

so kicking someone in the knee is a super technique that were not sure of? Seems very basic to me

 

[drop bear]

so kicking someone in the knee is a super technique that were not sure of? Seems very basic to me

Kicking someone in the knee is a basic technique. Kicking someone's knee out because science. Is a super technique we are not sure of.

 

[ballen0351]

Kicking someone in the knee is a basic technique. Kicking someone's knee out because science. Is a super technique we are not sure of.

YOU are not sure of there is a difference

 

[drop bear]

YOU are not sure of there is a difference

No. That is the basic premis of my pillar. If you have kicked a dozen peoples knees out. Then knee kicking is a viable high percentage move.

Proven,effective and tested through alive training.

If you haven't then it is a unproven concept. And all the faulty science in the world wont justify it.

 

[drop bear]

And just quickly regarding science we generally do not look at strikes in terms of force. It is kind of sort of looked at in terms of pressure.

Difference Between Force and Pressure

But even then not really. So when someone states that it takes X amount of newtons to break a knee with no source and only half the story. You really are not getting the full truth.

It is like clinical testing done on a beauty product. It is not real science.

 

[Drose427]

No. That is the basic premis of my pillar. If you have kicked a dozen peoples knees out. Then knee kicking is a viable high percentage move.

Proven,effective and tested through alive training.

If you haven't then it is a unproven concept. And all the faulty science in the world wont justify it.

The scientifc formulas an math are solid.

If it takes x force to shatter a knee from kicking it in the from the side, and you can generate X force on Ice or Cement, you have the power and tech to shattter a knee.


Its the variables

You cant kick out a bent knee from the front, itd have to be straight to hyper-extend

You have to get your side kick dead on to the side of the knee, from the back, you'll just buckle it. The knee will bend naturally instead of shattering.

 

[Brian King]

I reread the OP again. Picked up something I missed. The question was "With this video to start – what do you think should form the ‘fundamentals of self-defense training’ for the women described above?"

Thanks Buka, what I was trying to do by linking the video was to give focus on the type of "self-defense" I had in mind when asking peoples opinion on 'pillars of self-defense' of the type of assaults that are common to women. There are so many different types of violence in our world and folks experience many of them but I doubt that they have experienced all of them. I thought that the visual and audio of the video would help to focus the discussion to start on a particular type of violence, one that far too many women have to face.

"for the women described above?" What I was trying to do was to limit the childish hypotheticals, she should have, if she would have done this, type of wasted band width. I was hoping (which happened for the most part) to keep the discussion more general rather than focusing on this one particular house wife. Looking below at me quoting my self...umm...anyway, the blued text is the 'type of 'women' I was trying to focus the discussion toward. Women rather than woman.

For the start of this exploration (thread drift happens and can be interesting) let’s assumes that the prospective student is married, with small children, and limited training time – say once or twice a week for a year. The kind of attack that she may face, could be assault in a parking garage, road rage, work place violence, domestic abuse, violent robbery, wrong place wrong time violence, and home invasion. Or we can assume that she might be single, so we could add date rape violence, bar/night club violence, woman on woman violence to the list. Attacks against the elderly are brutal as well, and in some areas becoming common place, so we could add healthcare/ nursing home violence to the possible list above.

This video, taken with a nanny cam captures the violence that is common of assaults against women by men. They are violent and brutal. With this video to start – what do you think should form the ‘fundamentals of self-defense training’ for the women described above? Warning, video is violent.

Loved your 'pillars'
On pillar #9 Heart. What do you mean by this? Would you be willing to expand that thought?

Thanks for posting sir
Regards
Brian King

 

[Brian King]

It was fun I got to do all the fun things new hires do (drivers training, firearms, Defensive tactics) with out all the yelling and push ups.

I dont know if you can have 1 set of pillars for all people unless you go very broad like awareness, avoidance,etc. What works for me and Id consider MY pillar wouldn't work for my wife for example. So Im not sure there are pillars you can use across the board without getting to broad. So a my self defense pillars are to always be armed, my mindset is always prepared, No matter where I go I look for exits, cover and concealment. If Im with my family Im even more guarded and would be less inclined to intervene in a situation.

Perhaps but I think in my opinion her biggest problem was she was in her own home with her kid. I dont know if there is anything you can do to prepare yourself for that since for most that's the ultimate nightmare. Even still the best training is no guarantee your going to react as you train. I have seen officers freeze in a serious stressful situation. When I was on Swat I watched a guy fresh out of Swat school on his first raid totally forget to take out his weapon his brain locked he just held on to my vest followed me when we were secure I looked at him and he never had his weapon out. I asked him and he said he had no idea everything was just so fast and he couldn't get his mind to function.
So I think stress training can help but its no guarantee since even the hardest training is still not real. We never know how we will react when it gets real

So perhaps you would say that the primary 'pillar' is to know yourself and to seek the best training to allow one to address identified weaknesses and to build on their own individual strengths? To approach 'cookie cutter' self defense programs and advice' cautiously as they are often very broad and by design shallow? Knowing yourself also means to know which situations to intervene and get involved with so as to not recklessly and perhaps needlessly endanger yourself, family, and others? Did I get near the ten ring?

Thanks for sharing sir
Regards
Brian King

 

[Brian King]

We're talking about the pillars of self defense. In context, a pillar is a foundation or key element, without which the structure cannot stand. Self defense, in this context, I would define as being protection oneself from physical assault and violent crime. You can expand it to include emotional/psychological crime, as well, but if we aren't careful as we expand it we'll end up with something that's gone from already pretty darn wide to something that's unworkable.


We also need to put a caveat in place: dealing with violence is really like the old story of the blind men and the elephant. For those unfamiliar with the story – a group of men, blind from birth, are led to an elephant. Each approaches it, and examines what comes in reach. So... one describes it as being like a snake, another a tree trunk, the third like a bridge over his head, and so on, with each describing what they encountered. Do any of them really understand “elephant?” No – only that little bit they came into contact with. Violence and self protection are much the same; I'm familiar with imposing force on people, and protecting myself in one sort of situation as a cop. But it's not the same as Jenna's experience as a woman, or even Tez's experience as a female cop in another country. It's not even the same as ballen's experience, not too far from where I am. My direct knowledge of the subject is limited to my direct experience, which is shaped by who I am (physically and psychologically), my profession, where I live and work, who I associate with, where I grew up, and so on. My mediated knowledge (stuff I've learned from research and reading and talking to others) is wider – but it's not the same as direct experience. (I'm sure I'm not the first to use the blind men and the elephant in this context.)


So... what are the pillars of self defense, in my opinion? Let's start with awareness – actually knowing, realistically, with what's going on around you, and what's likely to happen. This is an active skill, requiring practice and work. From awareness, we can move to avoidance – taking steps to prevent being the victim, including things like not looking like a target or traveling to places where we're likely to be victims, and, being aware of an imminent problem, taking steps before any actual or direct contact is made to prevent it. It might be as simple as taking a different cab than the Uber driver who gives you a sketchy feeling, or crossing the street – or just recognizing that you're a stranger in a strange land, and had best get yourself back to the right side of the tracks, and doing it. Once avoidance is impossible or has failed – we move into conflict management and de-escalation. Can we talk our way out of trouble? If a buy the guy who's girl I just unknowingly hit on a drink – can we avoid the whole Monkey Dance and ensuing fight? What can I do to prevent or avoid violence. (Sometimes, the answer is nothing!) Finally, we get into physical skills. At this point, we need to address things like recovering from an ambush, handling a freeze, and just plain how to deal with the attack. “No one system has a monopoly on truth” – some may be better suited to giving you useful skills rapidly, but all of them have something good to offer. And something bad to avoid... Then, when everything is over and done with – we have to deal with the aftermath, the ramifications and consequences. This ranges from self-care for injuries, to dealing with the cops, and has to include dealing with the mental and emotional fall out of a violent encounter.


Think about it... each of those areas is worth a post – probably a thread! – all it's own.

Wow, wonderful well thought out and written post JKS9199. Thank you for taking the time and sharing your thoughts.

If you could expand a bit, above you wrote that awareness requires practice and work. Can you give a couple of examples or experiences?
You also wrote a bit about the aftermath, the ramifications and consequences. I do think that this subject is more than worthy of a separate thread, but until that happens, can you take some time and expand a bit on this. I think people are often not aware of the possible costs of violence and the effects it can have not only on those involved, but witnesses, family members, co workers, etc. Huge subject, but would love to read some of your thoughts.

Thanks for the time and again, excellent post. Thank you.
Regards
Brian King

 

[Brian King]

IMO, SD is 95% lifestyle and 5% physically fighting. How you live, where you live, who you hang with and what you do will always be your primary risk factors.

Sure ANYONE can be attacked ANYWHERE. Just like anyone can be struck by lightening anywhere...but if you decide to erect a steel flagpole on a hilltop while thunderheads are approaching...well.....

Thanks Tgace, concise wise post. Perhaps this pillar could be 'don't break the 4 S rule' and live your life by being a good normal person.

Thanks again for posting
Regards
Brian King

 

[Brian King]

Is the mind of humility relevant at all? I mean acceptance of limitation that the limitation might be overcome? what do you think? Jx

Humility might be just what some need to get through the aftermath.....it really has next to no place at all in the encounter itself.

Yes.

I know a few street fighters. And if you engage in enough violence eventually you are going to get bashed.

The better street fighters I have met are philosophical about it.

I think it frees your mind from doubt a bit and allows you to act a bit more.

Thanks folks, very interesting question Jenna, might be well worth a thread of its own, I would eagerly read it.
Interesting thoughts by all, Jenna, Elder999 and by Drop Bear. Thank you all for posting. Can you expand the thoughts a bit?

Thanks again and thank you in advance,
Regards
Brian King

 

[Buka]

On pillar #9 Heart. What do you mean by this? Would you be willing to expand that thought?

A fighter can have all the skills in the world, but no heart. When pressed enough, the fighter will break.
A fighter can have tremendous heart, but no skill. Having heart will help - it will keep you going, probably to the hospital where you might be admired for taking a beating for as long as you did. But a decently skilled person with heart - tough to beat.

I don't know if some folks are born with it, if it just comes naturally to them, yeah, maybe. But it can be developed through hard work and pushing oneself through limitations, constantly. "Constantly" is key - at least in the context of "I pushed myself once, boy, was I tired". Sammy Davis Jr once described what a professional was. He said, "A professional is someone who does a good job even when he doesn't feel like it." I think that touches upon it, obviously in a much softer context, but I think the basic idea is similar.

I think it's as much phycological as it is physical. (and not physiological at all) It can be developed. But it takes time.
For instance - going to class is easy when you feel like going to class. Not going is so much easier when you don't feel like going, or when you're tired, depressed, busy, have little time, have other things on your mind etc. I think it's easy, (fun even) to spar with someone your used to and comfortable with. It's another thing entirely to spar with someone you're not comfortable with. And I don't mean someone necessarilly more skilled than you, I mean the ones you just don't like sparring with for whatever reason. But guess what? You ain't going to be comfortable defending yourself, either, against anybody. Defending yourself is not a comfortable thing, no matter how good you are, or how good you think you are. And that has nothing to do with your skill level and everything to do with heart.

Say you do pushups as part of your training (be it in the arts or whatever), if the goal was to do as many as you could - it's not the number that counts, it's when you decide you've done them all. If I dropped fifty K on the floor in front of you, could you have done one more? If a loved ones health depended on you doing one more, could you have done one more? You would have to honestly answer "no" if you actually were doing as many as you could. Things like this, pushing your limits consistantly in fitness or anything else (consistantly being key) develops your "heart", your will, your grit, your resolve, your mettle, your pluck, your spirit.

Some will say that has nothing to do with defending yourself sucessfully. I say it has everything to do with defending yourself sucessfully. In fact, it has everything to do with with everything IMO.

 

[RTKDCMB]

A traditional martial art is an art that doesn't change after its inception, and adheres to tradition over innovation and improvement.

So we've established that you don't know what a traditional art is.

 

[Steve]

So we've established that you don't know what a traditional art is.

While I don't agree with everything Hanzou says, to be fair, I don't think anyone knows what a traditional art is. My point of referencing the other thread is to suggest that everyone has a different, personal definition. There is certainly overlap, but your definition is going to depend on a lot of things that are largely subjective.

 

[Xue Sheng]

While I don't agree with everything Hanzou says, to be fair, I don't think anyone knows what a traditional art is. My point of referencing the other thread is to suggest that everyone has a different, personal definition. There is certainly overlap, but your definition is going to depend on a lot of things that are largely subjective.

Agree to a point, the problem with defining traditional arts is at least part of that definition is subject to the culture that the art comes from.

However stating "A traditional martial art is an art that doesn't change after its inception, and adheres to tradition over innovation and improvement." shows a complete lack of understanding of traditional arts, their history and development and is just plain wrong even across cultures.

Traditional arts tend to change greatly after their inception, and they tend to adhere to function and usefulness over tradition and innovation and improvement happens and happened constantly throughout their history and anyone who actually studied these arts and their history would know this and therefore would not make such statements since it shows a very limited knowledge of the topic being discussed

 

[RTKDCMB]

My mistake. I remember you discussing that the philosophy of your school was no-contact sparring.

Do you not consider non-contact sparring to be sparring?

Given the TKD/Karate schools in her area versus the Bjj/MMA schools in her area, yes.

And what do you know of the schools in her area?

Anecdotal evidence is the best evidence.

I have already explained to you how evidence works. I have still provided more evidence than you have. All evidence is anecdotal to you if you have not seen it with your own eyes in person or on video.

I've been on the receiving in of plenty of karate black belt techniques. Few impress me.

I have seen a few students from other martial arts including kickboxing and few impress me. You have never been on the receiving end of any of our black belts so there is really nothing you can compare it to.

We should look at the people who perform the art and using their abilities in a SD situation.

Which I have done, whether you choose to accept it or not.

You're in Australia, so I'll agree with that. I'm talking about an American woman dealing with how TMA/Karate/TKD are generally taught in America.

I don't know enough about how it is taught in the USA to comment with any authority.

Back to your theory comment. Scientific theories have to be falsifiable (must be able to show its ineffectiveness) If I state that my martial art is effective against aliens from the Andromeda galaxy then without ever being able to produce one it could not be falsified. All the evidence that I have seen so far shows my art is effective for self defense, it has not been falsified so far.