Full Head Control vs. Untrained

[drop bear]

First simply because a knife is more dangerous does NOT mean you can't deal with it period. What it means is that, in self defense situations when you don't know whether or not the suspect may be armed you use techniques that maximize situational awareness and decrease vulnerabilities to weapons vs ones that reduce situational awareness and increase vulnerabilities.

Ok. So you can deal with a knife uarmed if the situation comes up?
Or are you constantly going to shift the goal posts.

So you don't just grapple up. Throw knees and keep an eye out if he pulls out a weapon.

Because that is just crazy ring talk.

 

[Juany118]

Of course it is. I think that's fairly self-evident to anyone who isn't under the delusion that Hollywood is reality.
But standing there frozen doing nothing vs knife is an even worse idea.

Personally, my choice vs knife is distance, and a gun. A nice maile shirt wouldn't be bad to have, either.

Agreed. I used to carry off duty all the time. The problem is my Department's policy changed. If we want PD liability protection we need to be qualified with the weapon. We used to have a "short" qualification course for off duty carry. It was the standard course but started at 15 yards and in. We changed to requiring the "standard" course however. Due to my body frame, and the clothes I wear, unless I am wearing one of the suit coat, I can only carry small frame pistols like a Beretta 3032 without screaming I have a gun. Since it has a 2 inch barrel the chances of successfully hitting at 25 yards is kinda problematic.

So in a situation where I am forced to defend myself off duty it all starts with maintaining maximum situational awareness and then techniques that minimize exposure to potential threats.

Yeah but people don't accept that because they really want knife defence to work.

Heck. I really want knife defence to work as much as anyone. But I am not putting my faith in it.

Knife defense is a lot riskier but it can and does work, but because of the risk the first step should be to try to avoid it period. Simply because you haven't learned any effective techniques doesn't mean they dont exist. You really seem to constantly go in search of videos that specifically prove your preconceptions that what you study is the best way to defend yourself.
Even if it didn't work, using techniques that arguably say "yes please stab me repeatedly in the abdomen thank you" is certainly not the solution.

Simply because something works well in the ring does not mean it should be a go to technique on the streets, especially when weapons are a potential threat. They were designed specifically with unarmed fighting in mind.

Btw no one is saying no grappling. It has been proven time and again that even if you are striking, or drowning, someone while grappling people can draw knives and stab doing major damage. The trick is what kinda of grappling? The grappling that works is grappling where you control an arm. This can not only prevent them from drawing a weapon but it is the primary method of knife defense if the weapon is already drawn. None of that fancy single handed stuff that allows for other hand strikes either, good old school two handed grappling that allows for control, knees and kicking, take downs etc.

It is at least as effective as a Thai clinch, allows for greater awareness and also allows for you to far more quickly disengage and create distance if necessary.

 

[drop bear]

Knife defense is a lot riskier but it can and does work, but because of the risk the first step should be to try to avoid it period. Simply because you haven't learned any effective techniques doesn't mean they dont exist. You really seem to constantly go in search of videos that specifically prove your preconceptions that what you study is the best way to defend yourself.

The videos are called examples. They are like story's but a truer representation. Saves people thinking I am pulling stuff out of thin air.

So pretty confident unarmed vs knife huh? Good luck with that.

 

[drop bear]

Simply because something works well in the ring does not mean it should be a go to technique on the streets, especially when weapons are a potential threat. They were designed specifically with unarmed fighting in mind

In Thailand which doesn't have many knife fights.

Just because it works in the ring doesn't mean it shouldn't be either.

What works against a trained fighter in the ring will generally also work against an untrained one on the street.

The reverse is not really true.

 

[drop bear]

Btw no one is saying no grappling. It has been proven time and again that even if you are striking, or drowning, someone while grappling people can draw knives and stab doing major damage. The trick is what kinda of grappling? The grappling that works is grappling where you control an arm. This can not only prevent them from drawing a weapon but it is the primary method of knife defense if the weapon is already drawn. None of that fancy single handed stuff that allows for other hand strikes either, good old school two handed grappling that allows for control, knees and kicking, take downs etc.

It is at least as effective as a Thai clinch, allows for greater awareness and also allows for you to far more quickly disengage and create distance if necessary.

Show me what you think is at least as effective as Thai grappling.

Not sure how you are grabbing these arms by the way.

Ok. Let's shoehorn one concept of awareness here. If you are countering one thing you are less able to be aware of other things. So the less you have to deal with mentality the better.

As shown in this video. Specifically chosen to make my point.

 

[Juany118]

Do you believe that there is some mystical filter that prevents a "competition" technique from being effective on the street? A knee to your face has the same impact on you whether you're standing in a ring or in a parking lot.

No I don't believe there are techniques that don't work, I believe there are techniques you use in the ring that have added risks on the street that should make you reconsider. There are take downs that in the ring work great because the ring floor is essentially padded but on the street can result in concussions. I have a coworker that is an awesome wrestler (was All State etc) but admits he has given himself concussions during arrests by instinctively using take downs that would fine on the mat but not on concrete. There are also techniques that work great in a purely unarmed fight but do not take into account the possibility that the opponent is armed or that they can arm themselves with improvised weapons. Arts made for the ring, even Muay Thai (which evolved as a competitive art from actual "combat" arts) don't concern themselves with weapons that much because weapons are a non-factor within the rule set.

This isn't to say all of the techniques have added dangers, they don't, many of them are great for the street, but some do add risk due to complications that are absent in the ring.

The point is that if you're being beaten that badly you're not going to have the mental clarity to reach for the knife, grab the knife, deploy the blade (if its a pocket knife or a balisong) and begin to slice and stab at your attacker. Again, while you're attempting to do all of this you are getting rag-dolled from the neck down and getting kneed in the face.

You keep ignoring a few things here. First you seem to just not get how easy it is to deploy a specific knife. The Dart can be opened simply by removing it from the pocket due to the Emerson wave feature. As a matter of fact, in order for it not to deploy you have to practice A LOT. A "panic" draw will invariably cause it to deploy. Due to the ring there isn't even a fear of dropping the dang thing.

A spring assisted blade can be opened with a simple "push" and an automatic knife at the push of the button. Then when in a clinch even a blind ineffective punch with put a sharp blade into the human body. I have provided you with two real life examples where this happened. Both with people not trained in knife fighting, one of whom was freaking drowning and on the verge of blacking out but you keep dodging this.

You do realize that there is a big difference between being pinned down and getting consistent blows to your head right?

Yep, thats why I noted the Trooper who was blacking out due to being drowned. Having your lungs filling with water, and the corresponding oxygen deprivation should equally make it as impossible to draw and deploy a knife as it has a profound effect on fine motor function, same with blows to the head, arguably more profound actually, but the Trooper not only lived but put his assailant in critical condition.

Again, do you believe that there is some magical filter in place that prevents a knee to the head to be less effective in a given environment? As I've said numerous times, blows to the head effect a wide variety of motor functions and will effect your ability to fight back, especially if your weapon wasn't already deployed when the blows started raining in.

Again no. I just think your argument is inherently contradictory. You acknowledge that grappling techniques can be used to escape the clinch and thus the attacks BUT then avoid the fact that the clinch makes you more vulnerable to a concealed knife by saying people wouldn't be able to draw and deploy a knife when it is FAR easier to do this than to execute the grappling techniques. Heck it's not just contradictory but illogical. If the knees to the head effected motor function so much then the grappling techniques should be impossible. Since they are not impossible the EASIER drawing and deployment of a knife is more possible.

 

[drop bear]

You keep ignoring a few things here. First you seem to just not get how easy it is to deploy a specific knife. The Dart can be opened simply by removing it from the pocket due to the Emerson wave feature. Due to the ring there isn't even a fear of dropping the dang thing. A spring assisted blade can be opened with a simple "push" and an automatic knife at the push of the button. Then when in a clinch even a blind ineffective punch with put a sharp blade into the human body. I have provided you with two real life examples where this happened. Both with people not trained in knife fighting, one of whom was freaking drowning and on the verge of blacking out but you keep dodging this.

So as soon as you get in range you are basically stabbed. Then there is no technique that will prevent this.

And why I don't like story driven martial arts.

 

[Juany118]

So as soon as you get in range you are basically stabbed. Then there is no technique that will prevent this.

And why I don't like story driven martial arts.

Hey look, your out of context stuff again. I responded numerous times saying the following.

1. as you engage maintaining situational awareness so you can watch elbows and knees. if you practice proper scanning this also lets you see the hands and waist band.

2. if you want to grapple, and grappling does work, don't go into a clinch that limits #1. Go for control of an arm. If you go for the right arm 90% of the population will not be able to stab or slash, if you are faster they won't even be able to draw because 90% of the population is right handed. Then with the proper arm bar (like I said none of that fancy one handed crap), you get in as superior a position as the clinch (in terms of control) for striking, though the strikes are to different areas. You can still strike with kicks to the knees, achillies tendon (both of which can easily disable the opponent) etc or knee the subject, or you can take the person down on their face and you are then in perhaps the most dominant position period.

The above is not "story driven" martial arts but techniques used by PROVEN martial arts like Filipino Kali (unless you consider it's success against insurgents and separatists as the hand to hand system of the Force Recon Marines of the Phillipines "story driven") and Jujutsu. Since you have liked these guys in the past go to 1:10 for but one example of what I am talking about.

That said these techniques from FMA also work BUT there is a BIG difference between what you see in this video, than the video you linked earlier. If you find yourself in a knife fight without a weapon you must use footwork and the footwork is a lot "wider" than what you use in an unarmed fight. The lack of widening your footwork is the biggest problem I see with many "unarmed" fighting systems. The video you linked earlier showed very little foot work which exacerbated the issues of the questionable techniques.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Keep in mind that people have been knocked out by walking into a hanging lamp.
Sure, it happens, but it isn't actually all that common. And most people are not going to be knocked out by walking into a hanging lamp or by a single knee strike.

Great. Now I need to train my students on "lamp technique"??

 

[Juany118]

Great. Now I need to train my students on "lamp technique"??

You have never heard of the "Tiffany Lamp" technique?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You can counter a well executed clinch by a variety of methods and just about all of those methods fall under grappling with the main idea of protecting your head and face from blows.

My issue is with the notion of not defending your head and face while you are attempting to go for a knife, and believing that head blows have zero effect on your cognitive abilities. In any situation where you are in an inferior position and someone is raining blows on your head, the FIRST thing you do is defend yourself from the blows. Leaving your head open to more blows multiplies the risk of knock out or severe damage to your head.

Additionally, I never said that it wasn't possible to whip out a knife and attempt to defend yourself. What I said is that attempting to pull a knife while someone is in a dominant position hitting you in the face with a barrage of knees isn't advisable. It's the exact same thing as the ridiculous notion that you should go for a knife when someone is on top of you punching or elbowing you in the head.

I don't have an experienced MT clincher to try this with - how much temporary protection can you give yourself against both knees with a single hand? Would it be enough to buy time to deploy a knife without dealing with the ringing knees to the head? It seems it might be enough if the knee is on the same side as the defending arm (so the elbow and short-leverage blocks are in play), but seems pretty iffy if the other knee comes in.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You have never heard of the "Tiffany Lamp" technique?

Well, now it's clear my training is crap. I haven't ever heard of that, at all.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course it is. I think that's fairly self-evident to anyone who isn't under the delusion that Hollywood is reality.
But standing there frozen doing nothing vs knife is an even worse idea.

Personally, my choice vs knife is distance, and a gun. A nice maile shirt wouldn't be bad to have, either.

Maile, or...I saw this video advertising a cut-proof bag. To demonstrate the bag, they made a t-shirt out of the material. A guy put a dress shirt over it, and they cut him up with a box cutter. The dress shirt was in ribbons, and the t-shirt was unscathed (as was he). To hell with the bag, I want one of those shirts!

To the point, this is something I think some self-defense instructors fail to tell students. Defending against any knife is a bad idea, but sometimes a bad idea is the only thing better than an awful idea (turning your back on a knife that's close, for instance, to try to run). I teach students that they are GOING to get cut. They should do everytying to avoid it, and they should expect it to happen, anyway. That being the case, their job is to get control of the knife and do damage to the attacker as quickly as possible.

 

[Juany118]

I don't have an experienced MT clincher to try this with - how much temporary protection can you give yourself against both knees with a single hand? Would it be enough to buy time to deploy a knife without dealing with the ringing knees to the head? It seems it might be enough if the knee is on the same side as the defending arm (so the elbow and short-leverage blocks are in play), but seems pretty iffy if the other knee comes in.

Well I think the thing is people are really forgetting the impact of adrenaline. Look at the link I posted earlier of the Trooper being drowned, on the verge of blacking out (in the end he did and if a civilian hadn't pulled him from the water he would be dead.) So yeah if you land that perfect knee, the guy is "out" and you are good, but if not, it seems illogical to say, as he does, "there are grappling moves that can free you from the clinch" but then turn around and say "even though it's easier than the grappling moves that can free you, you can't draw a knife and stab me with it even when I can't really see it coming."

 

[Juany118]

Maile, or...I saw this video advertising a cut-proof bag. To demonstrate the bag, they made a t-shirt out of the material. A guy put a dress shirt over it, and they cut him up with a box cutter. The dress shirt was in ribbons, and the t-shirt was unscathed (as was he). To hell with the bag, I want one of those shirts!

.

The problem with hose t-shirts is that they are only slash resistant. To get something stab resistant (that is concealable) you need something with special trauma plates/pads as shown in this video...

even then as you can see, the plates don't have universal coverage so you can have proper freedom of movement.

As for your last bit, while perhaps semantics I think "I accept I may get cut." If you don't truly accept it, simply "know" it, then you may hesitate and that is what will definitely get you hurt. You have to move as fast as possible and without hesitation in order to minimize the injuries you may likely suffer.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Agreed. I used to carry off duty all the time. The problem is my Department's policy changed. If we want PD liability protection we need to be qualified with the weapon. We used to have a "short" qualification course for off duty carry. It was the standard course but started at 15 yards and in. We changed to requiring the "standard" course however. Due to my body frame, and the clothes I wear, unless I am wearing one of the suit coat, I can only carry small frame pistols like a Beretta 3032 without screaming I have a gun. Since it has a 2 inch barrel the chances of successfully hitting at 25 yards is kinda problematic.

So in a situation where I am forced to defend myself off duty it all starts with maintaining maximum situational awareness and then techniques that minimize exposure to potential threats.

Forgive my language, but piffle.
My daughter is 5'2" and she's slim. She can carry a Glock 26 with a mag extension and conceal it just fine.
You're just not even trying...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Show me what you think is at least as effective as Thai grappling.

Not sure how you are grabbing these arms by the way.

Ok. Let's shoehorn one concept of awareness here. If you are countering one thing you are less able to be aware of other things. So the less you have to deal with mentality the better.

As shown in this video. Specifically chosen to make my point.

That video is more like misdirection which works in the same way. I'll have to look on Nextflix brain games to see what they say about it it. The reason it's misdirection is because the eyes follow the ball. When ever the guy in the animal suit come into the screen the ball is on the opposite side of the screen. Misdirection still applies to your example of awareness. If I'm countering being off balance from a Muay Thai clinch then I'm not in a position to counter a kneed to the ribs or to the face. the moment I get into a position to try to counter the kneed then I'm pulled off balance.

The body will always naturally try to maintain equilibrium and balance. Disrupt the balance and the body will instantly shift all resources to needed to maintain it. Having the head violently tossed to the side or downward breaks that structure. Getting kneed in the ribs breaks the structure as well but it introduces pain which the body will naturally try to deal with. While the person is trying to deal with the pain he is no longer thinking about the balance, so the Muay Thai fighter disrupts the balance. The counters that I've seen to the Muay Thai fighter have all been things which prevent the clinch from disrupting the balance.

To show proof of your statement of countering one thing you are less able to be aware of other things. Here's a video of a police officer getting stabbed. Look how long it takes for the police officer to grab his gun. Also take note that the police officer actually picks up the other knife and stabbs the guy back before he shoots the guy. He was so busy dealing with the danger of the knife that efforts to grab his gun didn't come about until he was able to fight the guy off.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hey look, your out of context stuff again. I responded numerous times saying the following.

1. as you engage maintaining situational awareness so you can watch elbows and knees. if you practice proper scanning this also lets you see the hands and waist band.

2. if you want to grapple, and grappling does work, don't go into a clinch that limits #1. Go for control of an arm. If you go for the right arm 90% of the population will not be able to stab or slash, if you are faster they won't even be able to draw because 90% of the population is right handed. Then with the proper arm bar (like I said none of that fancy one handed crap), you get in as superior a position as the clinch (in terms of control) for striking, though the strikes are to different areas. You can still strike with kicks to the knees, achillies tendon (both of which can easily disable the opponent) etc or knee the subject, or you can take the person down on their face and you are then in perhaps the most dominant position period.

The above is not "story driven" martial arts but techniques used by PROVEN martial arts like Filipino Kali (unless you consider it's success against insurgents and separatists as the hand to hand system of the Force Recon Marines of the Phillipines "story driven") and Jujutsu. Since you have liked these guys in the past go to 1:10 for but one example of what I am talking about.

That said these techniques from FMA also work BUT there is a BIG difference between what you see in this video, than the video you linked earlier. If you find yourself in a knife fight without a weapon you must use footwork and the footwork is a lot "wider" than what you use in an unarmed fight. The lack of widening your footwork is the biggest problem I see with many "unarmed" fighting systems. The video you linked earlier showed very little foot work which exacerbated the issues of the questionable techniques.

I don't think the Muay Thai clinch is the best first move and it seems that's where the discussion of it has headed as if 2 people get into a fight and the first move is to layout a Muay Thai Clinch. I think that's where the confusion may be but I could be wrong about how others may be seeing it. For me I see a Muay Thai clinch being deployed when someone attacks with punches and the punches get tangled and from there the clinch would be used.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The problem with hose t-shirts is that they are only slash resistant. To get something stab resistant (that is concealable) you need something with special trauma plates/pads as shown in this video...

even then as you can see, the plates don't have universal coverage so you can have proper freedom of movement.

As for your last bit, while perhaps semantics I think "I accept I may get cut." If you don't truly accept it, simply "know" it, then you may hesitate and that is what will definitely get you hurt. You have to move as fast as possible and without hesitation in order to minimize the injuries you may likely suffer.

When my Sifu teaches knife defense, the first thing he says to us is that we are going to get cut so we need to accept that and understand that the goal isn't to avoid getting cut as much as it is to avoid being cut in vital areas and preventing repetitive cutting. I guess it's sort of like people who are worried about getting punched in the face are those who have horrible sparring skills because their focus is on trying not to get hit in the face and not trying to fight back.

If a person is dealing with a knife and the only focus is to note get cut, then there is no focus or effort to prevent being cut repetitively which involves stopping the attacker from being able to use the knife.

 

[Juany118]

Forgive my language, but piffle.
My daughter is 5'2" and she's slim. She can carry a Glock 26 with a mag extension and conceal it just fine.
You're just not even trying...

I will admit a couple things I neglected to put in. Part of it is I am slim (well skinny) and my entire wardrobe is such that I do have a bulge (but maybe one I can detect more easily because I have been trained on weapon detection by the Secret Service.)

I also said "why bother changing my wardrobe" for the following reasons. First I focus, in terms of firearms, more so on gun v gun (maybe a bit myopic on my part.). In my experience bad guys miss far more than they hit. Bullets need to go somewhere and I am usually with my family and don't want them at risk because drawing a gun makes me, and thus them, a target. Secondly action is faster than reaction. I am not wearing my vest or have my radio. If I draw my gun then I may well end up getting shot first. So I decided in a gun situation I will give up my wallet and/or be the best witness a DA ever had.