Full Contact HapKiDo

[WilliamJ]

Greetings gents and ladies. I was browsing around the forum here a little and thought this might be of interest. I did a search and didn't see this topic around so if this is a repeat please forgive.

Full contact HapKiDo tournaments are making some noise out in CA, and I think it might be a major step in the development and progression of the art. I trained under this forum's own Iron Ox for a few years some time back, hey Kev long time no see bro, and have since trained in Judo and BJJ. The addition of live resistance to HapKiDo seems to me to be a very positiive thing.

For those who are curious, http://www.pro-hapkido.com/ Take a look in the video section, there is a short demo clip from the tournament DVD.

 

[Brad Dunne]

I agree that live resistance is always a good training tool. Looking at the clip you mentioned, I was a little surprised as to what was being executed, technique wise. The only "Hapkido" move that I saw was the first kick takedown. Everything else looked very Judo'esk. I guess in reality, everything within the arts is inter-related though.

 

[Kumbajah]

I definitely agree with the "liveness" aspect. Checked out the rules. Does seem to be a mix of TKD and Judo sparing. Notable exceptions:

1. knee strikes to the body
2. knee/ankle/hip locks permitted
3. Wrist locks allowed
4. Neck cranks allowed
5. strikes only allowed to trunk - no head shots

The only part of the rules that were confusing to me is a submission is only worth one point. Match goes to two.

<<3. Each striking technique shall earn 1/2 (plus half) point.

Each takedown technique shall earn 1/2 (plus half) point.

Each ground submission technique shall 1 (plus one) point.

4. Match score shall be the first contestant to reach 2 points.>>

But later it states that:

<<
Article 17. Decisions
1.Win by K.O.
2.Win by Tap Out
3.Win by Referee Stop Contest (RSC)
4.Win by score or superiority
5.Win by withdrawal
6.Win by disqualification
7.Win by referee’s punitive declaration>>

So points are awarded if you almost submit someone? Sort of like back points in wrestling or partial points in judo for a pin?

Looks like it would probably fun to watch and participate in. I wouldn't necessarily call it Hapkido but it does have some of the flavor. I think you could get by with TKD and Judo. No ground and pound - no head shots - no elbows - no low kicks etc. More UFC for the weekend warrior. Could participate and still show up to your cubicle on monday with out looking like you have been put through a meat grinder. Business attire will cover most bruises

Brian

 

[glad2bhere]

I agree. There are a lot of things one could call this. Pankration, Judo, Wresling all come to mind. Not sure why it needs to be called "Hapkido". I don't see anything "Hapkido" about it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[WilliamJ]

Judo and wrestling don't allow kicking, and wrestling doesn't have armbars. And keep in mind Judo and HapKiDo are siblings, they both come from the same place. So it's natural, in a 36 second demo, for them to maybe look similiar. There are only so many ways to throw someone, and only so many ways to apply a straight armbar on the ground.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear William:

I was thinking that as I read your post maybe some additional information would be helpful, but you will need to work with me because this will require using a wider view, 'kay?

If by "wrestling" you are calling to mind the sort of Collegiate and HS sport. I think you are entirely correct. However, if you want to speak of wrestling in the larger sense you will need to include Indian/Pakistani, Persian, Mogolian and even early Greco-Roman traditions all of which including a variety of kicks and strikes at various times. The earlier variation of Korean Ssireum, often attributed to wrestling traditions of the Mongolian and Manchurian tribal cultures could get pretty nasty and have been cleaned up quite a bit to produce the events we find now.

Speaking of Judo, I think it important that an excepted way of demonstrating dominance in earliest competitions was to simply choke the person into unconsciousness. Made for a very clean determination of visctory, yes? Modern medicine, and changes in competive rules for use in Olympic competition have made such things archaic by comparison to modern standards.

Lastly, Hapkido relates to a number of arts biomechanically. However, the intent in the traditional art is the survival of the individual and restoration of the "Hwa" (Lit: "Harmony"-- referring to balance of "peace" of the community). Buddhist thought requires that this be done in the most efficient and effective manner possible. What this translates into in modern parlance is "stop the fight". However, the nature of competition is to facilitate or promote the length of the confrontation so each person has enough opportunity to demonstrate his prowess. As you can see these goals are at odds with each other. If I am mandated to stop a situation that is violating the Hwa, I will do what is necessary and that may or may not conform to an artificial set of guidelines intended to protect the well-being of a competitor. Hope this makes sense. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[WilliamJ]

Actually it doesn't make sense. So your basic point it, catching a kick and turning it into a throw looks like grappling. That's because it IS grappling. And no, greco roman style wrestling did not have kicks, that was save for the pankration matches in greek history, not wrestling. There is a tradition of submissions in catch wrestling, but that is not very widely practiced anymore, and really none of this has anything to do with adding some live competition to HapKiDo.

While it's all well and good to keep in mind some techniques are not suitable for a competitive environment, using others in such a venue hardly takes away from the art as a whole. I think you are the one failing to keep an open mind by taking this position, mmm, it's competitive there fore it must be detrimental. Working against live resistance, even while using a smaller number of techniques, can only help with a persons reactions, fitness, balance and ability to adapt to a changing situation.

Also I am curious as to what type of competition you are talking about where the goal is not to win as quickly as possible? Having been a fan of and attended a number of submission grappling, Judo and MMA tournaments and fights, I have never seen someone not try to finish their opponent by any means within the rules. In fact in tournaments it is important to win as quickly as possible to save your energy for later matches.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear William:

Attacking me by saying that I do not have an "open mind" is probably not going to help you understand what we are talking about from another persons' point of view. To my way of thinking the very title of this string "--Full Contact Hapkido" is redundant. In a way its like saying "Black-colored Black".

Now if you want to advocate for some kind of "full-contact competition" nobody is saying that you can't do that.

a.) Its inappropriate to use the term "Hapkido" because that term is already taken with another activity.

b.) its inappropriate to use the term "Hapkido" because that term bespeaks a "martial art" not a "martial sport".

c.) It is inappropriate to use the term "Hapkido" because "Hapkido" does not have a competition intent. It IS an art, and maybe some people can use parts of it for sport use. But Hapkido is NOT competitive because the intention is not competition. If you want to compete using Hapkido techniques thats fine. If you want to introduce rules, thats OK too. If you want to have tournaments with trophies and parties afterwards, thats OK too. My suggestion is that you find another term for what you are doing, though. The term "Hapkido" is already claimed. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[ajs1976]

Not sure why it needs to be called "Hapkido". I don't see anything "Hapkido" about it.

I'm quoting Bruce, but this is to everyone.

It is called Hapkido, because the people who started the tournament practice Hapkido and wanted to start an Hapkido tournament.

If the rules and the way it is practiced in the tournament make it look like something other than Hapkido, is it still Hapkido?

If the instructors start changing techiniques and the way they teach, to make their art more effective for the tournament, is it still Hapkido?

 

[Kumbajah]

William I think the resistance you will feel from the traditional Hapkido world is against the general sportification of Hapkido.

Because you are using a subset of techniques of Hapkido to practice the sport does not mean that you are practicing the art of Hapkido.

When the focus becomes the sport aspect the illegal techniques tend to fall by the wayside. Judo has some limited kicks, punches, leg locks and other self defense aspects but they are not practiced to great deal because the focus is on Randori or Shiai. The art was originally structured on this premise. Eliminate "dangerous" techniques so that it could be practiced at full speed.

BJJ an offshoot of Judo also has self defense but their focus is on the ground game. Even though it is used in MMA competitions many people cross train in a striking art for these competitions.

Our Korean Cousin TKD has seen its reputation falter because Olympic Style sparing (as well as other things). But say TKD and most people get the image of flying competitors trying to beat the crap out each others hogus.

Now each one of these arts are excellent in their sphere of competition. Hapkido does address many aspects of these competitions. Full Contact Hapkido does not address the art of Hapkido as a whole. One does not need to be a Hapkido-in to compete in these games. Any MMA practitioner could do very well in the sport. Most Hapkido techniques are designed to debilitate your aggressor. In sport you are trying to defeat your opponent, you are not trying to cause permeant injury or death. Low kicks, bone breaking, shots to the head and neck, elbows, eye and other vital point spears etc are all integral to the art that I practice.

With all that being said I agree with the putting "aliveness" into training. These competitions can be a valuable tool. A great tool in fact. If it makes to the east coast I will definitely be there and hopefully compete.

So its the nomenclature that is the stumbling block. FCH is a kinder version of the UFC or other MMA competitions. It doesn't represent Hapkido as the well rounded art that it is.

 

[WilliamJ]

I never claimed this was going to replace traditional training methods. Nor did I ever advocate training specifically for competition. This can be a valuable aid to training though, a supplement to what you already do.

And honestly if you really think BJJ, Judo and MMA are not trying to break bones and debilitate the opponent, then you have not competed or trained in any of them very extensively. But in a larger sense those things have nothing to do with this.

My point is just this, a live tournament/training environment would be a very valuable addition to a HapKiDo school's training routine. Train the way you want, but don't overlook the opportunity to exercise your skills against a resisting opponent. Even if you cannot use everything you have, you do get to practice a good portion of your skills in these kinds of venues.

And before you get offended glad, you should recall it was you using the condescending phrase, "but you will need to work with me because this will require using a wider view, 'kay?", insinuating I was incapable of taking grappling's larger history into view. Even though it's a history that has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

[Kumbajah]

And honestly if you really think BJJ, Judo and MMA are not trying to break bones and debilitate the opponent, then you have not competed or trained in any of them very extensively. But in a larger sense those things have nothing to do with this.

Honestly I do think that in Judo you are not trying to break bones - there is a founding principle of jita kyoei. (mutual benefit) You can - but its not your intent. Maybe you missed that part in your extensive training. In most MMA competitions I've seen (other than KO's) end with a tap out rather then actually breaking. But as you say it is a moot point.

AGAIN - I agree with with you about aliveness. This is a valuable tool. I'm just pointing out that it is the NAME people are going to choke on. It is not "full contact" or necessarily Hapkido if you are limiting techniques for competition.

B

 

[WilliamJ]

In training in Judo you protect your partners so you can continue to train with them. In competition you win, that goes for MMA and Judo. Tap's generally occur before breaking, but not always. One of my training partners has broken his opponents arm two different times in Judo, because they did not tap. If you watch Frank Mir vs Tim Sylvia from UFC 49 you will see Mir snap Sylvia's forearm like a stick in an armbar. The only reason you don't see more of that is most people are smart enough to tap in competition. Winning is not worth losing an arm or leg for 4 months.

As for the name, I didn't name it. Someone with a great deal more training in HapKiDo called it Pro HapKiDo. I used the term full contact, because training is different than doing things at full speed against resistance.

If two men, trained in HapKiDo, step onto a mat and fight they certainly are not using Sambo. Feel free to email the people at the link I provided and argue the name with them. Arguing it with me is pointless since I cannot change their website.

 

[Paul B]

Oh boy ...*looking around*...now where did I put that?....ahhh...OK...I'm ready.opcorn:

Please continue....

 

[Kumbajah]

Injuries do occur in Judo - but it is not your intent. It is a win by submission - not win by breaking. Mutual Benefit is not just for the dojo - it is part of the art.

If one or both have trained in sambo as well they might use that or BJJ or Judo etc. Right now this seems to be an interfederation tournament. I have no idea if any of the competitors have trained in anything else. If it opened to the public I'm sure that people that train in other arts will participate, just as BJJ guys show up at Judo tournaments or Karate Guys show up at TKD tournaments. So when that happens - training will have to change in order to compete against other arts strengths. This will expand / develop Hapkido. But what I think people fear is "then what will differentiate Hapkido from any other MMA."

As beneficial or fun as it may be - it is not hapkido as it was developed or intended. It wasn't made for the ring. I train in Judo as well as Hapkido.(and many early hapkido-in trained in Judo and TKD) Judo helps my Hapkido - Hapkido helps my Judo. BUT - They are different.

I understand that you just posted the link - why so touchy then? I've said that I agree with you in all of my posts - that aliveness does benefit an art. I'm just pointing out why it may not be embraced by the Hapkido community under its current nomenclature.

Gimme some of that popcorn Paul - or I'll break your arm

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear William:

".....And before you get offended glad, you should recall it was you using the condescending phrase, "but you will need to work with me because this will require using a wider view, 'kay?", insinuating I was incapable of taking grappling's larger history into view. Even though it's a history that has nothing to do with this discussion......"

Sorry, guy, but regardless of what you may think was there, no condescension was intended or invoked. What you read was a legitimate request for you to work "with" me not "at" me in understanding a very importance diffence. Fact is, William, I am not required to spend time on these nets helping people understand Hapkido for the grand Korean tradition that it is. There are a lot more folks who want to use it and abuse than not, and nobody made me the Little Dutch Boy. Just understand that if you play fast and loose with terms and arts and traditions, sooner or later someone who takes the practice of a martial art more seriously is going to point out where you are incorrect. I don't make the news; I just report it. FWIW.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[WilliamJ]

That's cool, no offense taken or intended. And really I am not trying to critique anyone's training methods or change what HapKiDo is. I just thought people would find the link interesting, and perhaps it might be a good training aid. So please no one take this as me bashing HapKiDo or comparing it to any other art as I have been very careful to avoid either.

It was not my intention to sound touchy, nor am I mad at you bro. We got a little sidetracked there.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Andy:

You have raised some good questions and therein those questions lies the crux of the problem. It is a matter not so much of what people are doing but the image they wish to project. I have seen this over and over again in the martial arts and have nearly dispaired of addressing the matter in any constructive way. Please allow me to give a few examples.

1.) In the matter of rank, people want to tout that they have high rank and by having such rank they wish to convey the image that they are supremely and technically profficent. Now the cost of actually becoming technically profficient is a matter of years of development, yet this reality does not stop people from buying rank through an accomodating source and representing themselves that way.

2.) In the matter of art, people want to convey the image that they slowly and soulfully developed the "old fashioned way" and so may lay claim to being a practitioner of an authentic art. At the same time they want novelty, variety, and knowledge of the "next big thing. Now the cost of authenticity is to subscribe to a particualr way of doing things such that one polishes themselves against the frustration, tedium and hardwork thereby learning about who they are. being distracted by competition and its passing notoriety simply distracts from the shaping that martial arts is about.

3.) In the matter of growth, people want to convey the image that regardless of the goal there is always a shortcut, that only the misguided waste time not taking those shortcuts and anything that does not focus on the quick, the easy and the powerful is somehow a needless waste of time and resources.

Your questions speak to the very heart of these three points and for years I have watched as Korean traditions have been ground into sport, commerce and child-care. As a result, with growing frequency anybody who advocates for Korean martial arts endures ridicule not only from practitioners of other arts, but often from ones' own peers. There are those of us who still understand the difference between a "Kwan" and an "association", between an "activity" and a "life-style", between an "art" and a "science". Therefore I can report comfortably that the answer to your questions are "no".

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

S'all good - it is interesting. I hope it makes it out east. Thanks for pointing it out. And you forgot Kimura in Judo arm breaks.

B

Paul where's my friggin' Popcorn!

 

[Paul B]

*munch*munch* "Hamphkifo imph na uh spormph!Hamphkifo imph na uh spormph!"

Huh,oh...sorry Brian..*hands bag over to Brian*,goes back to muttering darkly on the sidelines.....