From Okinawa to Korea

[TrueJim]

At 4th Dan have they learned the entire syllabus for your system or is there more in the syllabus for 4th Dan and above. As pointed out in Living the Martial Way, how are you a "Master" in a system if you haven't learned the entire syllabus?

There are more Kukkiwon poomsae after 4th dan of course, but it's not clear to me that there's much significant new technique after 4th dan? I guess my larger point is: if you showed me a 5th or 6th dan doing (say) a Side Kick vs. a 4th dan doing the same technique -- I'm not sure I could tell the difference between a 6th dan performance and a 4th dan performance. So to Andy's comment, what makes a 5th dan a "real" master in some people's eyes, but a 4th dan only a "junior" master?

To JR137's point, you could argue that the difference is how much you've contributed to the art. To Dirty Dog's point, you could argue that the difference is one's depth of understanding.

I'm not saying I disagree with these distinctions (because I don't disagree), I'm saying: I'm not sure why somebody would view 5th dan as necessarily being more "masterly" than 4th dan. For example, a 4th dan dojang owner is probably contributing more and thinking more about the art than a 5th dan hobbyist.

 

[andyjeffries]

At 4th Dan have they learned the entire syllabus for your system or is there more in the syllabus for 4th Dan and above. As pointed out in Living the Martial Way, how are you a "Master" in a system if you haven't learned the entire syllabus?

I would say because "Master" isn't the top title. A master craftsman doesn't necessarily know everything.

 

[Dirty Dog]

At 4th Dan have they learned the entire syllabus for your system or is there more in the syllabus for 4th Dan and above. As pointed out in Living the Martial Way, how are you a "Master" in a system if you haven't learned the entire syllabus?

I think this would depend in part (at least for many systems) in how you define "the entire syllabus." We (like many systems) have new forms for each rank up through 9th Dan. But, frankly, there's no new material in them. They're movements and techniques that you will already know linked together in a new way, but they're not new techniques.
I would assume (hope) that the individuals understanding of these movements would continue to improve, as would their ability to teach them, but I think it might be a stretch to consider that part of the syllabus.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There are more Kukkiwon poomsae after 4th dan of course, but it's not clear to me that there's much significant new technique after 4th dan? I guess my larger point is: if you showed me a 5th or 6th dan doing (say) a Side Kick vs. a 4th dan doing the same technique -- I'm not sure I could tell the difference between a 6th dan performance and a 4th dan performance. So to Andy's comment, what makes a 5th dan a "real" master in some people's eyes, but a 4th dan only a "junior" master?

To JR137's point, you could argue that the difference is how much you've contributed to the art. To Dirty Dog's point, you could argue that the difference is one's depth of understanding.

I'm not saying I disagree with these distinctions (because I don't disagree), I'm saying: I'm not sure why somebody would view 5th dan as necessarily being more "masterly" than 4th dan. For example, a 4th dan dojang owner is probably contributing more and thinking more about the art than a 5th dan hobbyist.

Make it more difficult... how about comparing a 25 year old 2nd Dan who competes at the national level in forms competition vs a 65 year old 7th Dan with arthritic hips.
I think it's probably easy to guess who is likely to have the prettier kick. But I'd rather train under the guy with a deeper knowledge.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Make it more difficult... how about comparing a 25 year old 2nd Dan who competes at the national level in forms competition vs a 65 year old 7th Dan with arthritic hips.
I think it's probably easy to guess who is likely to have the prettier kick. But I'd rather train under the guy with a deeper knowledge.

True, but at what point is deeper knowledge guaranteed? My impression is that in KKW TKD, pretty much anyone can get to 4th dan by showing up and trying, but beyond that, you have to be decent (in knowledge and ability) and have made some sort of contribution. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

As an aside, the "trainer for you" of course depends on your goals. If your goal is "to be a national competitor", then I think you will agree that the answer may be different that if your goal is "to learn martial arts" in general.

 

[Dirty Dog]

True, but at what point is deeper knowledge guaranteed?

I'd say... never. But I'd like to think that the odds get progressively better as rank increases.

My impression is that in KKW TKD, pretty much anyone can get to 4th dan by showing up and trying, but beyond that, you have to be decent (in knowledge and ability) and have made some sort of contribution. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

That's pretty much the impression I have, though I can't say from personal experience. I stopped KKW after 2nd Dan.
I also have the impression that you can transfer rank from similar systems to the KKW, as long as you agree to teach the KKW curriculum. Although how you're supposed to have learned the KKW curriculum is a mystery to me. Combine that with their skip dan program, and the whole thing becomes a great big confusing mish mash.

 

[TrueJim]

My impression is that in KKW TKD, pretty much anyone can get to 4th dan by showing up and trying...

I don't know that this is generally true, but certainly I'd agree that there are some masters who will promote with little rigor (or who will promote for compensation). So I agree, anybody can get a 4th dan...if one "shops around" for the right tester.

That having been said, I don't know that most masters would promote to 4th dan merely for showing up. But there are likely some who do.

...but beyond that, you have to be decent (in knowledge and ability) and have made some sort of contribution. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I think that if a person has "shopped around" to find a master who will promote you to 4th dan, that same tester would be willing to promote you to 5th dan. I suspect that the testers who have low standards have low standards all around, and probably don't make a distinction between 4th dan and 5th dan.

 

[dvcochran]

Hello,
I studied Shutokan (a small offshoot of Shotokan) as a teen in the 90’s and earned 1st Dan before moving off to college. I continued to train when home, but that was just short stints. Then in 2004 I married and we both went to graduate school. At that point I ceased training altogether.

Fast-forward to now. My daughter (almost 6) and I started Tae Kwan Do back in October. Because I have smaller children waiting for me at home, I can’t stay and ask all the questions I want after each class. I was hoping maybe this thread could serve as a place for me to ask questions and just talk about the transition from Okinawa karate to Korean Tae Kwan Do.

First, Shutokan was heavily based on self-defense. We didn’t study traditional weapons. We didn’t compete. It was often discussed that Tae Kwan Do is flashy and impractical. Tae Kwan Do was all kicks and competition and the targets that would be most useful in a self-defense situation you are taught *not* to hit in Tae Kwan Do because of its tournament focus. Do you all find this true? Is Tae Kwan Do so focused on flash and competition that it is impractical? I like the idea of studying a martial art that I can continue if I move again. Tae Kwan Do seems to be in every town. But I don’t want my daughter to have false confidence and not have the self-defense skills it is important for a woman to have.


*****
I am not as post savvy as most people on this site so I am going to answer in line. Hopefully is will make sense. I am going to skip a lot of the history lesson in my answers(s)
If you go way back in the BC era, two of the Korean Dynasty's (Goguryeo and Silla) were heavily influenced by China. Korea was occupied by Japan from1910 - 1945. During the 35 year occupation most Korean traditions were prohibited. Naturally, there has been a great of consolidation in learning and passing down of the Martial Arts due to these influences mixing elements of Karate, Taekkyon, and Kung Fu. Some before and some after the liberation from Japan, nine Kwan(schools) were created, each being different in their teaching methods. These Kwans were such a strong cultural and economic influence the Korean government urged the Kwans to consolidate which happened around 1974 under the moniker Korea Tae Kwon Do Association. The Kukkiwon was established as the governing body for TKD in Korea. Not everyone adhered or follow the Kukkiwon standards so there are many offshoots, ITF, ATA, etc...
This is where it gets confusing talking about Tae Kwon Do as a single style. Factually it is not, so whatever someone's exposure is relative to TKD makes an impression, making it harder to explain. So first and foremost, find out WHAT TKD school your child is going to. Then a definite answer can be give. In regards to your concerns with your 6 year old; at this age style is much less important than the instructor and instruction. Find out if it is purely a TKD sport school, some World Tae Kwon Do Federation schools are this way and lack the depth you had learning Shutokan so the differences will be very evident.
*****

Second, in karate it was very important to stay the same height in our katas (forms). In Tae Kwan Do, with walking stances verses long stances and everything else, it seems that bobbing is preferred. Why? Am I misunderstanding something? The goal with not bobbing in karate was so your opponent couldn’t figure out what you were doing next.

*****
More modern TKD schools teaching the Taeguek forms do teach a walking stance. More traditional schools who teach forms other than or along with the Taeguek's, as a rule teach longer stances. Someone else touched on this. I was taught longer stances as part of the elegance of the form but also for conditioning. Stand in a long front or horse stance for a while and you will understand. This conditioning greatly helps your speed in sparring when you are often in a shorter stance. As far as the bobbing, I agree with the boxing analogy, it is not something you highlight but it is useful.
*****

Finally (for now), what is the first Tae Kwan Do form (name escapes me at the moment) so similar to the first Shutokan kata (Pinan Shodan)? I thought Tae Kwan Do wasn’t considered a karate?

*****
I am pretty sure you are referring to Pyeong Ahn II Bu. You may also hear name Pinon Sho Dan. If this is the first form your child is learning then it is likely they are going to a more traditional school, at least where forms matter. Regarding your question(s) and the Moo Duk Kwan gentlemen who posted, there are three Basic forms (Kicho Hyeong iI, ee, and sam bu) that are usually taught with the five Pyeong Ahn forms. The first one is easy to recognize because it is only down blocks and middle punches.
*****

I’ve been enjoying classes very much. I’d forgotten how glorious it is to push yourself and train hard and become so in tune with your body. As kicking was always my favorite part of Shutokan, I’m enjoying the plethora of kicks in Tae Kwan Do. Apparently I understand too much theory already as I’m asking questions that are uncommon for a white belt to ask.

That leads me to another question. Rank order. Is this different between different Tae Kwan Do schools? At this one, you start as a white belt candidate, then have to learn a form and several basics before testing for your white belt. Next is orange followed by yellow. This seems strange to me as yellow is a lighter color than orange and in Shutokan yellow followed white then orange followed yellow. So a flip from the Tae Kwan Do here.

*****
To my knowledge, there is no ONE rule for belt colors. That said here is my two cents. There are nine under black belt ranks and nine black belt ranks. Period. Too many schools use extra colored belts and stripes on a belt to increase the number of testings required to get to black belt. Starting out white and then having to test for white would be a flag for me. You are on to something with the arrangement of colors in my opinion.
*****

Anyhow, because of my background I’m picking things up quickly. I tested for white belt in December and my instructor says he wants me to double test at the end of this month since I already know most of the material and whatnot. I’m actually pretty excited about that. I just wish I had the time to practice that I did back when I was a teen. Being a mom to three little kids, plus two work from home jobs (university professor and database developer) in addition to all the typical household chores, leaves me little time to practice. Most of my practice time is visualizing while rocking the baby to sleep or cooking dinner or drifting off to sleep at night.

*****
I very much appreciate where you are coming from. It has always been about the commitment.
*****

Anyhow, Thank you for reading. I’m excited for this new martial arts journey! I just hope my old way of doing things doesn’t trip me up too much!


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[WaterGal]

I also have the impression that you can transfer rank from similar systems to the KKW, as long as you agree to teach the KKW curriculum. Although how you're supposed to have learned the KKW curriculum is a mystery to me. Combine that with their skip dan program, and the whole thing becomes a great big confusing mish mash.

As I understand it, to transfer your rank from another TKD organization, you have to do a "special dan test", which is basically a regular dan test for that rank, done in front of a panel.

Mr WaterGal went to the Master Instructor course they did in Denver last year, and they had some guys out from KKW offering a "special dan test" and a skip dan test the same week. Apparently, doing the instructor course was a requirement for doing a special or skip test past a certain rank, though I don't know if that's generally true, or just something they did for that event to get more people to do the Master Instructor course.

Anyway, however you learn the KKW curriculum, you theoretically do have to demonstrate some level of proficiency in it in order to pass the test & get your rank transferred. How strict or comprehensive they are about it.... I dunno.

 

[Dirty Dog]

As I understand it, to transfer your rank from another TKD organization, you have to do a "special dan test", which is basically a regular dan test for that rank, done in front of a panel.

Mr WaterGal went to the Master Instructor course they did in Denver last year, and they had some guys out from KKW offering a "special dan test" and a skip dan test the same week. Apparently, doing the instructor course was a requirement for doing a special or skip test past a certain rank, though I don't know if that's generally true, or just something they did for that event to get more people to do the Master Instructor course.

Anyway, however you learn the KKW curriculum, you theoretically do have to demonstrate some level of proficiency in it in order to pass the test & get your rank transferred. How strict or comprehensive they are about it.... I dunno.

The highlighted is the part I have doubts about. In the past, we've had KKW 8th and 9th Dans on this forum offering to transfer rank (I refer to it as "assimilation rank" in honor of the KKW's Borg-like nature) for just the registration fee (which is, what, $100?). As I recall (though I do not claim an eidetic memory...) no mention was made of any special tests.
I do personally know one fellow who was a MDK 2nd Dan and did a skip dan to KKW 4th Dan without ever holding any other KKW rank. As you said, he did the KKW 4th Dan material and nothing else. I can personally vouch for his knowledge of the KKW curriculum, but he was never tested on it.
He now runs a KKW-ish school. I say -ish because he awards KKW rank but does not teach the KKW curriculum; he still teaches the MDK curriculum.

 

[WaterGal]

Yeah, there's definitely some less than awesome promotions that have gone on.

Now, I haven't really been following any KKW developments in the last 6 months because.... life, but I get the impression that KKW is trying to find some ways to tighten up standards on these things without making things difficult for school owners. I think that's why the master instructor course was required for the special testers - so even if you went into the special test only knowing, say, the yudanja forms through Shipjin and having some basic competency in Olympic sparring and whatever you learned in the ATA or MDK or whatever, you'd come out the end of the week having done a crash course in the minute details of all the Taegeuk forms, the history of KKW, some basic self-defense techniques(*), etc.

(*Edit: THIS was something I found exciting - that KKW is, apparently, developing a self-defense curriculum that's not BS. I'm trying to remember the details on this, but the guy putting it together is, IIRC, the guy that heads up the program to teach TKD to the Korean Army, and he was the one that came out to Denver and taught that part of the course.)

Edit 2: I think that requiring transfer/skip testers to test in front of an official panel, and requiring high-level transfers/skips to do the Master Instructor course, is a good compromise between "anyone can do whatever" and the severe logistical difficulty of requiring panel testing for everything above 2nd dan like they were suggesting a couple years ago. I don't know if that's something mandated by KKW, or was something decided for this event, but I'm a fan.

 

[andyjeffries]

(*Edit: THIS was something I found exciting - that KKW is, apparently, developing a self-defense curriculum that's not BS. I'm trying to remember the details on this, but the guy putting it together is, IIRC, the guy that heads up the program to teach TKD to the Korean Army, and he was the one that came out to Denver and taught that part of the course.)

We were shown a rough video (low production quality, but the entire syllabus) on the Master Instructor Course before we had our self-defence physical lesson at Kukkiwon in 2016. It really is a large syllabus of self-defence and grappling movements. I recorded it on my iPad so I have it for reference.

 

[skribs]

My Master was a martial arts instructor in the Korean Special Forces. He has a lot of non-BS self defense in his curriculum.

 

[Michele123]

Thank you to those that responded about tournaments. I decided to sign both myself and my daughter up. I’m hoping it goes well because she does have some sensory auditory stuff but our instructor assured me it doesn’t usually get too noisy. I’m looking forward to experiencing a tournament for the first time! Y daughter & I are both white belts so I’m hoping that means low-pressure.


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[Dirty Dog]

Thank you to those that responded about tournaments. I decided to sign both myself and my daughter up. I’m hoping it goes well because she does have some sensory auditory stuff but our instructor assured me it doesn’t usually get too noisy. I’m looking forward to experiencing a tournament for the first time! Y daughter & I are both white belts so I’m hoping that means low-pressure.

He said tournaments aren't noisy? That certainly does not match my experience.

 

[_Simon_]

Thank you to those that responded about tournaments. I decided to sign both myself and my daughter up. I’m hoping it goes well because she does have some sensory auditory stuff but our instructor assured me it doesn’t usually get too noisy. I’m looking forward to experiencing a tournament for the first time! Y daughter & I are both white belts so I’m hoping that means low-pressure.


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Ah best of luck Michele! Let us know how you go, excited for ya

 

[Michele123]

Tournament is scheduled for this weekend. I’ll let you know how we do.

In the meantime I got to break boards for the first time! When I studied karate, the school I studied was all about self defense and saw board breaking as gimmicky so we didn’t do it. So this was my first experience. I was shocked at how easy it was. Like you don’t even feel the board, you just hear it snap. Crazy. I would’ve thought there was more to it than that. In any case it was pretty cool.


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[TrueJim]

I was shocked at how easy it was...

I think board breaking mostly comes in two flavors: either (1) well that was shockingly easy, or (2) it didn't break ow ow ow ow.

 

[Buka]

I hadn't read any of this thread until last night. What a great read. Love it.

 

[_Simon_]

Tournament is scheduled for this weekend. I’ll let you know how we do.

In the meantime I got to break boards for the first time! When I studied karate, the school I studied was all about self defense and saw board breaking as gimmicky so we didn’t do it. So this was my first experience. I was shocked at how easy it was. Like you don’t even feel the board, you just hear it snap. Crazy. I would’ve thought there was more to it than that. In any case it was pretty cool.


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That's awesome, well done! Every time I've broken boards I've found it to actually be harder than I thought (I could definitely feel the board..), maybe your technique is far better than mine Michele!

And I really think board breaking has massive benefits... and don't think it's gimmicky at all. Of course it's a primary demonstration tool that's used, but actually doing the break requires so much: focus, accuracy, technique, power, good stance, overcoming fear and doubt, COMMITMENT... I love it.. and would jump at the chance to do more of it.