Fraud, or Just don't know better...

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

OK, back to reality. I was starting this post not to get run over from the mega thread, but to examine what attitudes people have to "Hapkido" dojangs whose instructors have almost no Hapkido in their background. Now, as I said, for the minute, I wanted to leave behind the more controversial, larger and more well known organizations, including KHF and Combat Hapkido, and concentrate on the mom and pop size groups that start small and grow to super-con proportions.

This may include defining how others see Hapkido. I would like to stick to simple definintions, e.g. founded by, includes, not "based in blah-blah culture" - just simple definintions. I consider Hapkido founded by Choi, Yong Sul and is based on his curriculum, but again, the Ji tradition here is fine, whatever, but examine how we determine fakes and what should we do...

Personally, I think that a guy, for example, that has 13 years tae kwon do experience, then decides after a single Hapkido seminar this summer with a somewhat dodgey Hapkido character, to call himself "dojoonim" of his own Hapkido style is very suspect. Now, if we are not self policing, who is? If we allow some to turn the term Hapkido for a general catch-all for any KMA tradition (or Chinese tradition) with a throw in it, or use Hapkido as a general determinate for nunchaku groups, will the art survive? Examine all other major martial arts of today. Is Shotokan a catch-all, how about Tae-kwon-do? This catch all nonsense allows others to say "I teach Hapkido - it really has no definition - so my Chin-na, rice-flail, neo-Confucian mantis style is also Hapkido".

Not for me it ain't.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

Sorry, guy, but you ARE going to get SOME spill-over from the other string simply because "definitions" play a huge part in how people sell their product.
By way of extension the degree to which people accept other definitions, or the degree to which we challenge other definitions speaks to the integrity of the art. Proceeding from THAT is also the matter of the art as "military" versus the art as "martial", two similar but not identical terms. And I have not even gotten around to what we identify as positions of responsibility, and how those positions are filled, and respected, and how we account for (or hold accountable), how people find their ways into those positions.

Now if you follow all of that there is also the flip-side of those same issues. If people DO NOT challenge the definitions of others, what is to be made of those who whip-stitch something together and then invoke the term "Hapkido"? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Kevin, I understand where your coming from and sorry that I kind of went off on a tangent. Thanks again for the PM with the site link. I'll use that site info as a springboard for your question. This "founder" of this particular name of hapkido is 29 yrs old and without a doubt is full of himself. I watched the clip that was part of the site and although nothing above some basic's were present, I saw the intent to take something to a higher level. Now if he is truely qualified to assume the mantle of hapkidoist, I don't really know. Not enough information, but lets assume by present company standards, he is not. Should we or anyone else step up and proclaim that this is someone/something that must be avoided, because it dosen't meet our criteria? As bad as some may feel, that this is a detriment to Hapkido in general, it is at least sparking an interest in Hapkido. Perhaps students that he does have may want to expand upon the Hapkido teachings and seek a more qualified instructor. People that are fronting, soon run out of what they have to offer and people will/do pick up on that. At least those that really want to learn something. There's just too many people out there passing themselves off as something their not and even in a legit setting, people are being ripped off in some fashion.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

Dangerous ground, this and not just because of the definition thing that I mentioned to Kevin. Hear are a couple things I picked up on your post. They stuck out for me because I have heard them in other posts over the years.

This "founder" of this particular name of hapkido is 29 yrs old and without a doubt is full of himself. I watched the clip that was part of the site and although nothing above some basic's were present, I saw the intent to take something to a higher level.

Why would we accept this in a Hapkido instructor. Gymnastics, Football, etc etc coaching and teaching a person needs to have some sort of credentialling. Kevin was saying this especially true inthe UK. Why do we take the word of an individual that they believe themselves to be qualified only BECAUSE they believe themselves to be qualified.

[/QUOTE] Should we or anyone else step up and proclaim that this is someone/something that must be avoided, because it dosen't meet our criteria? [/QUOTE]

If the matter was based on individual criteria we would spend 25 hours a day pointing fingers. All the same though, look what happens when someone speaks up. How many times has someone taken umbarage because I have been critical and challenged me about being the "hapkido police"? Since I can't handout tickets, of course the simile' doesn't fit. But think about the response. Instead of taking inventory of whether one is doing the right thing, they get defensive and lash-out. Whats up about that? People don't want government doing the job, right? And apparently most leadership can and will intervene only in their own organization --- if then.

[/QUOTE)] Prhaps students that he does have may want to expand upon the Hapkido teachings and seek a more qualified instructor. People that are fronting, soon run out of what they have to offer and people will/do pick up on that. [/QUOTE]

Well, maybe they will and maybe they won't. Maybe a person starts out with a good heart and gets seduced into taking the easy route of buying his way along. And then comes the organization-hopping and before you know it another 3rd guep is another 10th Dan of his own system. I remember that one of the reasons that the US Gov. took so long to intervene in the Great Depression was that they thought the US economy was "self-righting". There are STILL people who believe that today. Fact is that the US economy AND KMA need to be sheparded and managed. Theres' no automatic pilot, whatever your discipline is. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Disco,

I have to disagree a bit here. I didn't use that example because they are in the UK but becasue he is a BS artist proclaiming himself a Hapkido "dojoonim" - now as far as self-regulation and crying wolf, I believe in it big time. I am currently trying to organize/find a venue that will allow just that. Now, peolple may have different criteria for what makes a good instructor, but not what is Hapkido and what is not. 13 years of Taekwondo and 3 months of Chung Moo Doe (their spelling) don't equal ANY Hapkido of any kind...

Bruce hit the nail on the head with this guy, again watch that space, the guy claims to head his own Kwan, did you see who he had in for a seminar - none other than the globe trotting, grade passing Malaysian Dentist KHF "grandmaster" little Hapkido background Lim - I will bet you if the price is right, by next year, this young dojoo con artist will work some checkbook magic and poof, "legit" grades in Hapkido.

Now, does this mean we need to watch the "more legit" organizations as well, YES - there are members of these groups just as likely to get paid for rank than anywhere else. We should not be afraid to call foul when we see it -

Now, does it spark interest in Hapkido? Maybe, but the frauds end that spark pretty quick when the unsuspecting public feels that Hapkido is just another rip off in the martial arts because we do not stand up and question the garbage.

 

[Disco]

Kevin, Bruce, you'll have to forgive me a bit on this because I kind of lead you into this. You both are in strong argeement on this issue and rightly so. But unless the Hapkido world comes together and both of you feel it's a non accessible position, then it's business as usual. If the so-called legit personage within the Hapkido ranks are willing to "sell" the heritage and integrity of the discipline, what can we do. We have seen how the home office (Korea) deals with such issues. This just brings things full circle again back to the issue of an upstanding regulating American organization. You can then become disenfranchised from the other side of the ocean and conduct business as we all seem to see fit. To my way of thinking, it's the only practical solution to on ongoing problem. When something of this nature rears it's ugly head again, you would at least have the satisfaction of knowing that your house is not contaminated by this infection and so would everybody else. As it stands now, everybody in Hapkido gets infected by these actions.

Kevin, I think you asked awhile back on how this could be done. Well to my way of thinking it's fairly easy. The caveat being that people truely want what's best for the discipline and it's students. I feel we have those people already in Masters West, Holcomb, Whalen, just to name a few. Now granted, I realize that it's sometimes difficult for people to let go of ties back to Korea, but they don't have to. They can keep their kwan attachments to their original instructor. No harm there, but in turn they have a new chance to safeguard the original tennents of Hapkido, apparently something that many have choosen to forget. I can't think of any legit instructor who would not be proud to see their students doing the right thing. As with any endeavor, it's all predicated on the first step and knowing that the time for correcting a wrong is long overdue. It can't be corrected from the inside, we see this, so it must be done from the outside. The only way from the outside is to step away and tell/show them we don't need or want them anylonger. If not, then it's still business as usual and they'll be another thread like this one down the road.

Respectfully
Mike

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Disco,

I agree in part, but I don't think that this can all be done in spite of the Koreans. I think as you point out that one can keep Korean ties and still preserve the art outside of Korea - but I think this is done by quick and unrelenting self-policing of BS when any of us see it - once the real cowboys - like the one we have breifly discussed have been dealt with (closed down, whatever), then we can move to the larger organizations that are in need of dressing down.

Again, as far as most American higher ranks, I have no personal contact and they mey well be great people, but some of the orgainzations they represent would certainly be included in my short list of large organizations that need addressing. I think anyone here that has been a long time reader knows my position vis-a-vis the KHF (again, I DON'T know the US guys, and they may be OK - but the organizational root is a mess).

Part of this policing process may be as simple as not recognizing the rank issued by certain groups or their parent groups, or it may grow to the need of public outcry of concern of rank and experience.

Again, I am much more concerned with the indie cowboys that suddenly buy super-rank for now than I am trying to address internal politics of large organizations that might be guilty of rank selling. These two groups may go hand in hand, but I think for most people's palets to would be more acceptable to go after the little perch than the great white shark for now.

 

[Disco]

Kevin, I agree with you in principle. The problem as I see it, how can the little fish be expunged, if the great white has assigned it and indirectly protects it. The expression of cut off the snakes head and the body will die comes to mind. We have done and continue to do the unrelenting self-policing of BS when any of us see it and what has it accomplished?
Once the real cowboys - like the one we have breifly discussed have been dealt with (closed down, whatever) -- I don't know how this can be accomplished in todays society. Then we can move to the larger organizations that are in need of dressing down -- This also has been tackled (KHF), with again nothing accomplished. In fact there are now "two" KHF's projecting their status to the world. What about the Kido or Kido hae, whatever the proper title is, they've accepted ICHF and many feel less than comfortable with that. The large main problem, as I see it, is that all the major organizations have eastern management of some sort. You can't impart any influence on people if they don't have any respect for what you say. Again with an old saying.......'if you want something done right, do it yourself". I fully realize that my projected position will most likely fall on deaf ears, it has in the past. But eventually somebody of standing or a group of somebodies will finally reach the saturation point and say enough is enough, were being made to look like complete fools and it's past time for it to stop.
I would just like to be around to see it happen..........

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Disco,

... Part of this policing process may be as simple as not recognizing the rank issued by certain groups or their parent groups, or it may grow to the need of public outcry of concern of rank and experience.

Again, I am much more concerned with the indie cowboys that suddenly buy super-rank for now than I am trying to address internal politics of large organizations that might be guilty of rank selling. These two groups may go hand in hand, but I think for most people's palets to would be more acceptable to go after the little perch than the great white shark for now.

Hi Kevin:
Some time ago, I received an application from a group of people wanting to have their art and rank recognized as Hap Ki Do. After observing the documentation and accompanying video footage, I came to the conclusion that I was not watching Hap Ki Do as I knew it, but Jiu Jitsu as I DO know it. I politely refused their request, but apparently the money that was to be made was too much to turn away for another one of our peers.

Similarly, I refuse to accept documents from a number of organizations, such as GM Porter's organization, who IMHO are not representing Hap Ki Do. The man is good at his own art, and I respect him for that; however, I have seen a number of his certificates come to me that awarded rank in Hap Ki Do. To me that is like a Dentist doing business as an MD. Both are Drs, but I hate to have the Dentist perform open heart surgery on me.

By refusing to recognize such documents, I have earned the wrath of many people who paid good dollars to have these ranks. Yet, I will not relent.

My point is this. There will always be somebody who is eager to accept more students and money. How do you figure on stopping this? IMHO, all we can do is the small part each of us is able to bring to the table, but stopping it altogether seems like trying to catch wind with a spoon.

 

[glad2bhere]

Ok, now you two EightBalls need to slow down and take pity on the old guy in the room, and I'm not talking about Rudy, either!! I actually had to print your last three posts and then highlight the salient points so that I could track where this was going! Sheesh!!

I think I understand where this is going and I can say that I support it, but it kinda comes back to the old story of "who will bell the cat" though I may not mean that exactly as the old Aesop fable told it. Instead, let me point out that there are a couple of major forces moving against a unifying force in Hapkido.

One force is that people are not saying what they mean or stating the same thing as what they will support. Let me give a couple of examples.

On E-BUDO sometime back there was a significant string on licensure and certification. Everybody agreed that there was a crying need for oversight but no one wanted someone else to do it. By this I mean that there was no concensus on government oversight, organizational oversight, national oversight, or local oversight. But everyone agreed oversight was needed.

In like manner, everyone agreed that the martial arts would be served well by a uniform criteria for teaching, rating, ranking and so forth. No one would agree to accept the criteria of another group or personality. They did all agree that such a criteria was needed.

Lastly everyone agreed that licensure and oversight was a good thing--- to keep the OTHER guy under control. The problem was always with the OTHER guy.

Do I have a solution? Not unless someone comes up with the cure for the "common personality". However, I think there are some clues out there.
For instance, right now there are five major organizations that either speak to Hapkido or subsume it to a large part under their authority. Right now I think the most viable are the USKMAF and the KMAA. I don't think the World Hapkido Federation, even though its led by my own teacher is a viable option as GM Myung tends to have room only for his own material. In like manner I don't hold hope for GM Ji as he has a poor track record regarding organizational management. Hal Whalen leads the more authentic of the KHF options and has the fact that he is not really beholding to the Korean contingent so there is an option there. The IHF (Korea) is a bit marginal and like Myung and Ji may not be very accepting of alternate Hapkido material; under their authority. There are also the kwans of Lim Hyun Su and Kim Yun Sang though again these are very style specific--- and based in Korea.

Conclusion? For me it makes more sense to go with an existing, Western-based organization with a proven track record and work within it to shape the goals and policies to meet ones needs rather than start a new organization from scratch. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

"....My point is this. There will always be somebody who is eager to accept more students and money. How do you figure on stopping this? IMHO, all we can do is the small part each of us is able to bring to the table, but stopping it altogether seems like trying to catch wind with a spoon....."

You have captured the other side of the question--- and quite well. While we are talking about examining the people doing the certifying and licensing and testing and promoting there are those hungry folks who want something that smacks of authenticity while giving as little of themselves as possible.

We, ourselves, are well motivated and willing to make sacrifices, but the general population we have to deal with don't necessarily share those qualities. How do we address the very human tendency to want the best image with as little sacrifice and work as possible?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

"....My point is this. There will always be somebody who is eager to accept more students and money. How do you figure on stopping this? IMHO, all we can do is the small part each of us is able to bring to the table, but stopping it altogether seems like trying to catch wind with a spoon....."

You have captured the other side of the question--- and quite well. While we are talking about examining the people doing the certifying and licensing and testing and promoting there are those hungry folks who want something that smacks of authenticity while giving as little of themselves as possible.

We, ourselves, are well motivated and willing to make sacrifices, but the general population we have to deal with don't necessarily share those qualities. How do we address the very human tendency to want the best image with as little sacrifice and work as possible?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

"....My point is this. There will always be somebody who is eager to accept more students and money. How do you figure on stopping this? IMHO, all we can do is the small part each of us is able to bring to the table, but stopping it altogether seems like trying to catch wind with a spoon....."

You have captured the other side of the question--- and quite well. While we are talking about examining the people doing the certifying and licensing and testing and promoting there are those hungry folks who want something that smacks of authenticity while giving as little of themselves as possible.

We, ourselves, are well motivated and willing to make sacrifices, but the general population we have to deal with don't necessarily share those qualities. How do we address the very human tendency to want the best image with as little sacrifice and work as possible?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce, I must confess my ignorance as to the scope of either the KMAA or the USKMAF. I was under the assumption that they are general KMA based. I think it would be more advantageous to have an organization dedicated to just hapkido. Bringing such teachers as Rudy, West and the other's mentioned to the table, to establish a new entity without any possible prior constrants getting involved. I mean if countries can sit and agree on situations, that involve way more than an agreed constitution for the betterment of hapkido, then surely this could come about through these fine gentlemen. I realize that I am presuming upon these folks and that is not my intent. I am using their names because to me they represent the pinnacle of how senior practicioners/instructors should conduct themselves. I have met Whalen and Holcomb, talked, listened and watched them on the mat. I have not had the honor of meeting Rudy or Master West, but their reputation precedes them. One of these days, perhaps the spring fling in Jackson, I'll have the pleasure to meet with them, also yourself and Kevin.

Respectfully
Mike

 

[kwanjang]

Bruce writes:
"On E-BUDO sometime back there was a significant string on licensure and certification. Everybody agreed that there was a crying need for oversight but no one wanted someone else to do it. By this I mean that there was no concensus on government oversight, organizational oversight, national oversight, or local oversight. But everyone agreed oversight was needed.

In like manner, everyone agreed that the martial arts would be served well by a uniform criteria for teaching, rating, ranking and so forth. No one would agree to accept the criteria of another group or personality. They did all agree that such a criteria was needed.

Lastly everyone agreed that licensure and oversight was a good thing--- to keep the OTHER guy under control. The problem was always with the OTHER guy."

Hello Bruce et al:
While I agree that something is needed to deal with the problems of certification etc., there is more to that than may be obvious. For example, JR, Hal, myself,and most of the others mentioned are all interested in doing the best we can to preserve good Hap Ki Do; however, there is quite a difference between what I do and what JR does in terms of what we deem important in deciding what is good. I don't think either one of us would give up the freedom of making our choice, because it is based on what we believe in.

I don't even view this as being a bad thing. I actually believe it is good for the art. The problem is that I for one base my decision on gut feeling PLUS what I see. How am I to write this down so someone else can make sense out of it in order to yea or nay someone's application. To be sure, in the case I used as an example, I actually corresponded with JR about this, but I am here to tell you that I would have made up my own mind on it if we had NOT agreed.

Like I said, I believe those who truly care about our art DO examine and make inquiries even as we speak. On the other hand, I would not think anything less of JR if he DID accept GM. Porter's certificates. I happen to know he does not accept many... but that is just an example of what I mean. I believe JR does his best, and I think (at least I hope) that JR feels the same about my decisions despite our differences. WE both believe the other has the best interest at heart, and I for one am willing to accept the decision of someone I trust even if it is not consistent with my own feelings.

Over the years, I have come to know fine people such as Hal, Holcombe, JR, and a number of others, and I give them the leeway they have earned with respect to Hap Ki Do. It is not necessary for me to agree on EVERYTHING they do. I trust their judgement.

Similarly, a lot of people will criticize me for supporting GM Seo, because of his support for JP. I do not agree with his decision, but I will not let it stand in my way of learning from a really good teacher. I am also too damn old and stubborn to try and please my other friends to make sure I don't offend them with my choice of teacher. I have been around the block often enough to know from whom I can learn something, and while I do not agree with everything that man does... I know he is a hard working martial artist who gets on the mat and proves his worth time and time again.

For me, I don't need a knight in shining armor who makes no mistakes. My need is to have a Master who is willing and able to share his art with me, and I appreciate that despite the fact it gives me some headaches. We are human, we make judgements, and some live by them mistakes and all. We can NOT please everyone, and that is where I think the problem of a "super org" lies. WHO is to be the one who knows all???? Who decides which art is pure??? Who decides who can join and be part of it???

I am sure I am not qualified to make those decisions: however, in my little corner of the world (NKMAA) I do my best to keep a clean house.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Kwanjang, you make some very good points, and as a base for the argument of how to regulate, simply not accepting a certificate is a great way to do it. Aslo, as you mentioned, if something looks more like another art, then that is how you call it, I think this is very diplomatic, and frankly probably quite kind to those that are not really Hapkido trying to get rank.

Do you (or any of you out there) examine the actual training background that a person has? I again was wondering through a few sites and found a well known guy who does just cane stuff, he has about 8 sentences dedicated to the training that he has done, and about 2 pages about all the tournaments and Soke/Master of the year titles he has been given. Here is an example of the type of stuff that gets me...this guy got a Tang Soo Do black belt in 1979 (under an American Movie Star TSD style) then states in the next line that in 1983 "while preparing to test for 3rd Dan Hapkido..." - so no mention of Hapkido through 1979 then poof, four years later, testing for third dan Hapkido - yeah, right. This is the stuff that we as a group need to be aware of and help to inform the public - or given the guts, address the questionable grades ourselves.

 

[MDFJ]

Dear Kevin et al

My name is Marc, I am the gentleman from the UK you have been referring to in some of your posts.

Firstly... although I appreciate and thank you Kevin, for your discretion in keeping any personal information referring to me directly, to PM personal messages, I feel a little offended to read such comments about me on a public forum from someone who has never met me or spoken to me. Other people may not have realised it was me you were referring to, but I did.

You assume to judge me and call me a BS artist, a con artist, a fraud, and suggest I am a poor quality "full of himself" instructor who rips people off & Buys grades?
How can you begin to believe or assume any of that without ever having met or spoken with me?
I appreciate your main point may well be based more into whether I had the right to use the name "Hapkido" in my own style of Martial Art...?

I presume this would not have been said about me if the style I taught was called "Jung Shin Karate" ?

I apologise if you feel offended by me doing this, I do not like to offend people, however I would prefer we discuss this choice of name rather than you insult me without knowing me.
I would be happy to open a conversation with you to discuss your opinions of me or my choices, but I would prefer you reserve from publicly slating me until you know me or have all facts correct.

To fill in some of the Gaps and inaccuracies of what you stated are my credentials:
Despite not wanting to admit it, I am 30 Years old
I have 15 Years TKD (ITF)
I have a total of 23 years in MA's including training / grading in:
Judo
Ju-Jitsu
Chung Moo Doe (Not MY spelling - as Spelt by Master Kim who's style it was - I have copies of newsletters etc with that spelling)
Aiki-Ju-Jitsu (1st Dan - 2000)
TaeKwonDo (ITF) (3rd Dan - 1995)
Kuk Sool Hapkido (2nd Dan - 2004)
I have been teaching for nearly 15 years, and opened my first school 11 years ago.
All my Grades have been obtained through Correct physical Assessment, I have always had to pay a grading fee, but have never "Bought" a grade, and never will.

I dislike politics, I feel there any many great people in the World of Martial Arts, and they will all have varied opinions (as some posts here have testified to) I do not believe that any one group or person will ever be able to control any complete section of the community for this very reason. So I would prefer to take a similar opinion to that of Kwang Jang Nim Rudy Timmerman in accepting people for their differences, respecting them even if you do not personally agree with them.

I do not agree with what you have done or what you say, but I respect you as a human being, and as a practitioner of the martial arts, you may be highly proficient, you may not, to me it would not matter if you were a white belt or grandmaster, if you seek to better yourself and help others in the process, i respect you. Although I do not believe what you state about me to be accurate, I at least appreciate that you care about the integrity of what you do enough to raise your voice.

But please consider my point.. Just because I do not do what you do, I do not walk the same path as you... Does that make you right and me wrong?
Maybe you have a problem with the choice of name for my style... as if it in some way disrespects what you do..

For someone to suggest that my students would leave me to go and find a better more qualified instructor is also insulting, I do my best to provide my students with good quality instruction, I am not a commercial instructor, i teach in my spare time, because I love to teach, I charge students between (the £UK equivalent of) $4-8 per 1.5 hr - 2.5 hr class, simply to cover running costs / hall rental. I produce good students with good technique and good morals, and all senior grades are examined by independent examiners. We are members of a couple of non-political groups and i regularly have visiting instructors to my school as well as taking students to other Martial Art events, both Hapkido and other styles. I have never had a student leave because they believe they are being taught bogus material, inferior material being misled or swindled in any way, I am not a full-time professional instructor, but I am professional in my conduct. I feel people should know me and visit me before making such a judgement. I am not a big fish, but I do not try to be, I just want to swim well, I have 40+ students with another school opening soon with 20+ interested already.

I will explain why I chose to use the art name "Hapkido"

Painting is an Art... renaissance, impressionism, etc are "styles" of that "Art"
Karate is an Art.... Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Wado Ryu etc are "Styles" of that "Art"
Hapkido is an Art.. the many many Kwans are "styles" of that art..
Even the main stream "Hapkido" people differ in their belief of Choi or Ji as true founder... I personally think they Both contributed to make the "Hapkido" arts what they are today.

I know of a person in the UK who is a strict Choi supporter, who believes any other type of Hapkido (even Ji's Sin Moo Hapkido) is NOT Hapkido.

Without giving you my life story or explaining the politics I have been witness / victim to, I decided to walk my own path and create my own style...
I designed a complete Syllabus, completely original forms/hyung and grading syllabus.

My Main background in MA, was in Aiki-Ju-Jitsu and TaeKwonDo with more of a lean towards the Korean Side.
My heart and approach to Martial Arts is that of Korean Styles, I even study Korean Hangul and can translate to a reasonable standard.

Does Hapkido not have roots in Aiki-Ju-Jitsu (Daito-Ryu) ?
Does TaeKwon Do not have roots in Shotokan Karate ?

The Japanese influence from the many conflicts / occupations are evident in Korean Martial Art Styles.

I know the history followers will argue about exactly where the roots are, but I think many do accept the Aiki-ju-Jitsu link / Influence to Hapkido..

So what I did and what I developed was taking similar roots and a similar path to that of "Hapkido" arts.. I do not in any way claim to be as great or Worthy as Choi or Ji, I have not awarded myself 10th Dan, I do not call myself Grandmaster, I use the term "founder of the style" simply because that is the truth, i did create the Style I teach.. I was given the grade I hold (4th Dan) by members of the groups I have been affiliated with, it was their opinion as a reflection of the grades I held in other styles, my time serving martial arts, and my abilities. I have since been offered 5th Dan by a group instigated from my own students, I politely refused the grade.

So to use "Hapkido" or not...? Had I used a name such as Marc-Kwan-Ki-Jitsu-Do or a totally English name like "Marc-Defence" I could have been accused by people of teaching someone else's Technique / Style under my own name, trying to pass it off as my own when it was not. I do not claim to have re-invented the wheel.
I used a Korean Name to categorise or describe the "Art" that I teach (Hapkido), I then chose a Korean Name to specify my "style" of that Art (Jung Shin)

"Hapkido" described the principles, appearance and general feel of the "Art" I do.. I named it Jung Shin because of my belief in Jung Shin Philosophies, and teaching Mental development as well as Physical Development.

So I had to make a choice, I did, and I knew some people would accept it, and some would not... whichever choice I made.. Some would and have applauded me for having the courage to walk my own path, others have questioned why I do not stick with those traditional Arts/Styles...

This posed the question "Who gave you the right to start a new style...? "
Well who has ever given anyone the right to start a new style?, and if they did, were they authorised to do so?
Who Gave Bruce Lee the Right to create Jeet Kune Do?
Who Gave Choi Hong Hi the right to create TaeKwon Do? (Apologies to any Kukkiwon / WTF if you do not recognise Gen Choi as founder . this is just to make point)
Many "Modern" arts, TaeKwon Do, Hapkido, Jeet Kune Do, even Aikido who has ever given anyone the right?

Now I am NOT saying that I consider myself in the same class as these people, I have no plans on global domination or telling everyone "my way is the best" That is not me.. This is just the way I like to teach, and it teaches what I believe in based on my modest 20+ years in Martial Arts.

No one questions the "right" of these people because history has proved them to be great people and their styles have been enjoyed by many around the world...
I am sure there are others like me, who have walked their own path in a small and modest way and passed into obscurity.. Not because they were poor or failed, but simply they had no desire or ambition to grow beyond what they had. Global Politics and arguments amongst power-hungry people as to who is legitimate and who is not has led to so many fragmented splinter groups and styles that more and more people are deciding to walk their own path, not for Glory but to save money on Headache tablets. ITF style TaekwonDo had already fragmented into hundreds of groups in the UK alone, now the entire ITF Headquarters has been split 3 ways since Gen Choi passed away.

Having made my decision, and further asking these questions about choice of name, I proceeded to seek opinions from teachers and Masters of other "Hapkido" styles.. I have had many in depth conversations with many people, and have personally met with several "Hapkido" teachers and Masters, all with different Kwan affiliation / style etc..
Although they see differences between my own style and theirs, I also see differences between each of their styles, However each one of them confers that the style I teach is a "hapkido" Art, that resembles much of what they teach themselves. All of these Hapkido people are recognised by and affiliated to either / and or Both, the KHF and/or Kido Hae.

I think the question about Hapkido being a "catch-all" or generic term is interesting and open to many opinions... I personally feel that there are so many styles of "Hapkido" arts as time progresses this generic term will be accepted as such.. For example,
If I was a mainly Chinese art Practitioner and developed Jung Shin Kung Fu... Would the other Kung Fu people consider me wrong for using "Kung Fu" in the name?
If I was a mainly Japanese art Practitioner and developed Jung Shin Karate... Would the other Karate people consider me wrong for using "Karate" in the name?

I do not believe they would, as those generic Art names have been in existence for much longer and have so many established styles no one can claim rights over the name....

To finish my post, I would speak directly to Kevin and anyone else who has issue with me or the choices I have made..

By all means please converse with me and disagree with me...
You have your opinions and I have mine...
Whether we can agree, disagree, develop and understanding or Not......
Can we please be, as Martial Artists should be... respectful of each other even in disagreement...
And not label someone publicly with offensive words when there is no basis, evidence or reason to do so.

If any part of my post has upset or caused offence to anyone, I apologise most sincerely, I am fully respectful of anyone and everyone who chooses to live their lives in a decent way. These are simply my Opinions FWIW on the subject in discussion.

I thank you for your time and look forward to hearing from you.

Marc

 

[Black Belt FC]

I totally agreed with kwanjang on association and certification. My school and I are associated with GM Seo and proud to be a part of his dojang family, what he does with other people will not affect my relationship with them. I join them for their wealth of knowledge and commitment to excellence; moreover, GM Seo has authentic and affective techniques to share.



On the issue of certification I personally can care less if people do not accept any credentials, I personally feel that the mat is where the ability credibility should begin and end.

Lugo

 

[ajs1976]

Hello all,

Do you (or any of you out there) examine the actual training background that a person has? I again was wondering through a few sites and found a well known guy who does just cane stuff, he has about 8 sentences dedicated to the training that he has done, and about 2 pages about all the tournaments and Soke/Master of the year titles he has been given. Here is an example of the type of stuff that gets me...this guy got a Tang Soo Do black belt in 1979 (under an American Movie Star TSD style) then states in the next line that in 1983 "while preparing to test for 3rd Dan Hapkido..." - so no mention of Hapkido through 1979 then poof, four years later, testing for third dan Hapkido - yeah, right. This is the stuff that we as a group need to be aware of and help to inform the public - or given the guts, address the questionable grades ourselves.

I do look into the training of individuals, but based on a short blurb on a website, I try not to jump to conclusions.

Who was your most influential instructor?

Master Neil Citron, also an instructor in the Chuck Norris System, probably had the biggest influence on me in traditional martial arts. After teaching at the school for a while, he decided to enhance his training by learning some of the other martial arts. When he came back to the dojo, I wanted to study with him because of the variety of styles he taught. In fact, when I moved up to Lake Tahoe in 1976, I continued to commute to LA for his instruction, and as a result, received my 1st Dan in April of 1978.

My school, North Lake Tahoe Tae Kwon Do, is based on the principles of focusing on one style, but exposing the student to different martial arts.

He was learning the Chuck Norris System, but he doesn't say what else Master Citron was teaching him. He also doesnot state what his 1st Dan was in. Could it be in Hapkido? If it is, is '83 to early for a 3rd Dan test?

(I don't know why that last part is in bold, but I can't figure out how to fix it)

 

[Disco]

Marc, first welcome to Martial Talk. Second, sorry that your initial encounter was on less than agreeable conditions. I respectfully bow to your convictions and for wanting to present yourself to those that have formulated a perseption of you. I fear that I am guilty of such a perseption. I was the one who used the term "full of himself". I based that solely on the uniform being worn and not on the person. For that, please accept my appology. The information of your post was delivered with professionalism. A lesser person would have possibly been more inclined to cast stones and name calling, but you conducted yourself with respect. A practical application of some of the tennents of the martial arts. I hope that you will consider to continue posting and joining other discussions that interest you.

Respectfully :asian:
Mike