Fraud, or Just don't know better...

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Departing from the superthread for a minute, have any of you seen a Hapkido dojang SO far out there that it was not Hapkido? e.g. The instructor has no real Hapkido background, etc. What did you do, anything? By what criteria do we evaluate the rash of "new" Hapkido.

Not looking for a Hapkido police, or are we? Given a certain small group of established traditions, does anyone have a reponsibility to question what might be fraud?

Lots of wiggle room here for dicussion. But I would like to avoid the mire of so and so from this organization etc. really looking to investigate the "independants" that suddenly become super-dans.

Are these guys frauds, or do they just not know better because of a loose interpretation of Hapkido?

 

[Disco]

By what criteria do we evaluate the rash of "new" Hapkido? Really looking to investigate the "independants" that suddenly become super-dans.

I know you didn't want to get into the mire of so and so from this organization etc., but the term super-dan kind of opened the door. Without naming, I can assume we all know who I mean to reference. It has been discussed on other threads that this persons background criteria was/is questionable, but a discipline/Kwan has been established that is accepted by many. Now comes the real crux of the debate. This discipline was acknowledged and accepted by a governing body, with ties to Korea. The head of this organization is on the Hapkido family tree. Was this "New Hapkido" evaluated or just purchased? Is it Hapkido because someone with "correct" lineage says it is or because it can stand on it's own merits?

Not looking for a Hapkido police, or are we? Given a certain small group of established traditions, does anyone have a reponsibility to question what might be fraud?

Since the protectors of society (law enforcement / court system) react after the fact and in cases such as martial arts fraud, have no real impact to safeguard the public, someone should/must fill the void. The problem here is that this aspect also can/does get distorted. Caveat Empator, buyer beware..... Years ago, prior to the advent of the internet, it was easy to take advantage of people. In todays climate, people are information driven. They have the ability to research, via venues like "Martial Talk". It is up to the individual to do their homework.

We can look at this problem as a working evaluation of the Hapkido circle principle. :uhyeah: It always seems to come back to the authenticity of who learned what and where.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

When I was first introduced to MT it was because a former student that I had promoted to yellow belt had claimed that he was a 7th dan Grandmaster and founder of Hapki-Bujutsu. I did feel a responsiblity to reveal who Eric really was! I agree that people have no one to blame but themselves if they do not do some research into an art or teacher. This to me is just common sense.

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[iron_ox]

I know you didn't want to get into the mire of so and so from this organization etc., but the term super-dan kind of opened the door. Without naming, I can assume we all know who I mean to reference. It has been discussed on other threads that this persons background criteria was/is questionable, but a discipline/Kwan has been established that is accepted by many. Now comes the real crux of the debate. This discipline was acknowledged and accepted by a governing body, with ties to Korea. The head of this organization is on the Hapkido family tree. Was this "New Hapkido" evaluated or just purchased? Is it Hapkido because someone with "correct" lineage says it is or because it can stand on it's own merits?

Hello Disco,

Actually, I wasn't getting to that individual (believe it or not), but the even newer and wilder claims being made by folks with little or no Hapkido background. I don't want to name the group here, if you want to get a good reference, I will PM you, but the groups I am referring to have no ties anywhere, and claim crazy titles and rank.

 

[SmellyMonkey]

I agree with the previous statements. It is the responsiblity of the student to research the kwan and instructor before deciding to join the school.

We have the benifit of living a free society where a person can believe whatever they want. If someone trains for a year or two and believes they have the skill to teach, nothing can stop them from teaching.

We Americans are pretty savy customers. It is hard to defruad is for long. Eventually, an instructor promising to be something he/her isn't will go out of business.

Thank goodness we don't have "hapkido police". If we disagree as much as we do now, think about what would happen if all our schools had to "prove" to an outside party they deserve to teach hapkido. That policing body itself would be rife with fraud. Look at our hapkido federations now!
Jeremy

 

[Disco]

Kevin, I'd be interested to see that info. Thanks for the offer to PM. Perhaps I'll get a better understanding of what some people are trying to pass off. But even though that certain party was not the intention, how do you feel about the aspect of the question about was the "New Hapkido" evaluated or just purchased? Is it Hapkido because someone with "correct" lineage says it is or because it can stand on it's own merits?


Mike

 

[glad2bhere]

The Circle Principle tells us that "what goes around comes around". We allowed wiggleroom and for our sins it has become one of those entitlements that people milk for all its worth. The 500# gorrilla that nobody wants to talk about is that we continue to have people who agree "I won't out you if you don't out me."

But lets not draw the line there either. How many people are truely discriminating when it comes to asking about credentials? Is it that they don't know how to ask or are they simply not to keen on pressing the point. I find it pretty hard to believe that so many folks were "victimized" a while back as though they had absolutely no idea of what was being done. Like small children in a violent household we all know a whole lot more about whats going on than most people will give us credit for. The fact is, though, that we don't want to put our own personal vitae at risk so we go along with the game until it simply becomes to outlandish. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce, there's two ways to be victimized. The first is to be totally unaware and walk into something that's crap. You won't know it's crap until you become educated via training, which leads to enlightenment, which leads to questions, which then leads to discovery. The second and actually more damaging (IMO) is the broken trust from real instructors (i.e. Forged documents, promotion ceiling, not delivering earned documentations, etc).

How many people are truely discriminating when it comes to asking about credentials?

I can only respond to the number of people who I personally deal with. To date, everyone that comes into my school asks about the credentials. But in all fairness, when they walk in the door it's the first thing they see, so naturally they ask. The problem there is that they have no real idea of what's legit and what's not. I tell them how they can verify if they should so choose, but it's doubtful that any would follow up on that process. So you may be correct with "how many are truely discriminating".

What's your take on the question I posed the "New Hapkido" evaluated or just purchased? Is it Hapkido because someone with "correct" lineage says it is or because it can stand on it's own merits?

 

[ajs1976]

I agree with the previous statements. It is the responsiblity of the student to research the kwan and instructor before deciding to join the school.

How do you do this?

Ask the instructor to see his certificates. How do you know they are real?

Use publications to reaserch the system / instructor. I find it hard to do when it is common a magazine to carry articles and ads about the same person.

From the internet. The internet has a lot of information. A lot of it is inaccurate or even an outright lie.





For a beginner, this can be really hard. I think it is important to spend time learning about the MA, before signing up.

 

[SmellyMonkey]

You can tell a lot about a school by just looking around. How old are the students (many adults = good)? What kind of padding do they have on the floors (hardwood/thin padding probably means no takedowns/throws). Who is teaching? (Is grandmaster sitting around handling the business but not teaching? Are masters teaching the class? 1st or 2nd dan instructors? Are they skilled?)


There are lots of posts out there on how to pick a school. And you know what you want to get out of your training more than anyone else. Take the trial lesson and see how you like it.

 

[The Kai]

Wow all the questions you asked would never occur to a beginner!1.) Adult students?, or sure plenty,next class mr. please sign now
2.)Padding on floor?, Most beginners see MA"s in the movies of T.V. where it looks like a body is taking a terrible fall on to the street-not once of twice bot dozens of times-and bounces right back up
3.) Who is teaching?, I know plenty of adults to study with the local GM (without even knowing what the word meant)-He is retired and has been for several yeras!

Most people off the street know nothing or have such preconceptions they are actually in the negative_They cannot make a truely informed decision!
my 2 cents-will lurk again
Todd

 

[SmellyMonkey]

2.)Padding on floor?, Most beginners see MA"s in the movies of T.V. where it looks like a body is taking a terrible fall on to the street-not once of twice bot dozens of times-and bounces right back up

Ouch! You got me there!

Great argument, The Kai! I never thought about posting advice to the potential student who believes hapkidoists can bounce off concrete dozens of times and get right back up!

The point of this thread was what to do about schools and instructors that "fraudlently" pretend to teach hapkido. I think the answer posted by many was it is hard to prevent this from happening, but good news! - these schools will probably fail once people realize they are being defrauded.

I posted VERY few things potential students should look for in a hapkido school AFTER they have learned about hapkido by doing a little research.

But you got me! Don't worry, I won't reply to your posts again.

 

[The Kai]

Ouch! You got me there!


The point of this thread was what to do about schools and instructors that "fraudlently" pretend to teach hapkido. I think the answer posted by many was it is hard to prevent this from happening, but good news! - these schools will probably fail once people realize they are being defrauded.

I don't know there are plenty of TKD schools out there tahta could'nt fight thier way outta a paper bag, the solution? Of course it is to offer a course in Krav Maga (or what ever pre packaged deal in a box) and charge for it! The fleeced get even more fleeced.
Todd

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

"......What's your take on the question I posed the "New Hapkido" evaluated or just purchased? Is it Hapkido because someone with "correct" lineage says it is or because it can stand on it's own merits?....."

Until we got going on that mammoth string ("Hapkido Q&A") I was beginning to think there might be a light at the end of the tunnel. Now, in all possible fairness I am completely overwhelmed by the numbers of mixed and conflicted messages as people attempt to characterize Hapkido. Through all of the exchanges, however I note two consistent themes that come up over and over.

One is that no one wants to be held to some level of accountability especially a criteria organized by another person.

The other is that people would rather banter about the relative merits of their particular favorite personality than participate in organizing a cohesive curriculum for the arts. Why is this? Well, see point #1.

In the tradition of Korean martial science the passage of tradition from one generation was based on the fundamental efficacy of the material and its founding in Korean culture. For most practitioners here in the West all this means is that without uniform standards folks are free to title ANYTHING Hapkido. How are we then to respond to you question about "New Hapkido" when folks will not agree about the "Old" version? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

[From Bruce] How are we then to respond to you question about "New Hapkido" when folks will not agree about the "Old" version? FWIW.

Aside from the personality preference, I think most people have agreed on "Old Hapkido" in principle, as to the status of being a viable discipline. As has transpired on other threads, regarding the author of this subject "New Hapkido", again people in general have opinionated, but mainly on the personality side of the issue. My question actually involves both elements of the old and new and is not directly related to personality, but rather the status as a viable discipline under the Hapkido banner. There is no available information that links this "New" venue to either Choi or Ji. But one of the disciples of possibly both Choi and Ji, who is in a position for influence within the general KMA's world, has put forth the assertion that this is an accepted portal for people to train in. By doing so, lineage and nationalistic history no longer become an issue. That is my assessment of the situation, which allows me to venture forth and ask the question, "Is it Hapkido because someone with "correct" lineage says it is or because it can stand on it's own merits?....."

Thanks for all your reply's in the past and for the future......... :asian:
Mike Dunn

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

I want to respond to your question regarding "new" Hapkido but I am afraid its going to sound a bit like a dodge. Please know up-front that is not my intention.

Like you, I think that we will always be saddled with the baggage of personalities and personal preference. That said, I still characterize Hapkido as an evolving art. Out of respect for my view of Hapkido I would ask people who are interested in pursuing such evolution to honor what I see as two basic positions.

1.) If one professes to teach Hapkido as a Korean Martial Art I would ask that they honor the learning and teaching of that art within the context of its place as a portion (or expression) of Korean culture.

2.) If one professes to practice Hapkido as a Mu-Do I would ask that before proceeding to integrate outside (material not amalagmated by the Koreans into their martial traditions) that they first learn all that is available within the Korean tradition. By this I mean, for example, that before one starts using nunchuka and teaching that as part of their curriculum, that they study the Korean flail polearm. In like manner, before one starts practicing Japanese sword, that they first study Korean sword- and so forth. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce

Using your respnse, the two basic positions, I assert that this "New" Hapkido falls in neither camp. Now before I go any further, let me re-state my personal position regarding Korean Martial disciplines in general. I respect and practice the discipline proper, that being the Mu-Do aspect. As for the other edge to the sword, the "Art', which I believe bears the brunt of the codes of ethics, which include honor, respect, loyalty, etc., I have very little use for. Why you ask? Because of the many years of either directly dealing with or watching how the Koreans themselves turn their back on those elements when it suits them. To me, this plays right into the other mega thread that's ongoing. In order to give validity to any historical rationalization, shouldn't the people that have been born and raised and intrusted with said historical roots be true to at least the intent, if not the actual teachings themselves? If those that I speak about hold no relevance for these subjects, then just really how important are they? Apparently they seem to only hold meaning for us here in the west. Another example, at least to me, is the information pertaining to Ji and his wish for no one to become the head of Sin Moo. No disrespect to any of the Sin Moo people intended here, just using this as a reference to validate a point of contention. We will have history repeating itself, but this time under a directive. Choi taught and people learned and then went their seperate ways and developed what they wanted. Now we have all this ongoing rhetoric to determine what is what and who is who. There was no thought as to historical dogma back then, otherwise there may have been tighter controls introduced by Choi. Apparently he didn't care about such mundane things and by Ji wishing to do the same thing, he follows suit. By their actions, the element(s) of which we try to align history is thrown to the wind and the so called roots of a system are planted in sand. So in a way I guess I have answered my own question. "New" Hapkido is Hapkido because it has been blessed by someone who says it is. This has been the tradition thruout Hapkidos history.

 

[glad2bhere]

In order to give validity to any historical rationalization, shouldn't the people that have been born and raised and intrusted with said historical roots be true to at least the intent, if not the actual teachings themselves? If those that I speak about hold no relevance for these subjects, then just really how important are they? Apparently they seem to only hold meaning for us here in the west. Another example, at least to me, is the information pertaining to Ji and his wish for no one to become the head of Sin Moo. No disrespect to any of the Sin Moo people intended here, just using this as a reference to validate a point of contention.

Dear Mike:

Fact is there simply is not a font size with enough points to give you the sort of screeming "amen" your post deserves! I have been hammering on this theme for so long now I have to buy my mallets by the gross! I cannot call the behavior of the Korean nationals anything other than "shameful" when I witness their conduct and the selective way that they invoke cultural institutions such as Confucianism to support their respective authorities. I will also add in all possible fairness that the larger number of violators are found outside of Korea rather than inside. Folks whom I met in Korea were satisfied to regard me as a kind of Korean culture "wannabee" and to suffer me with grace. I imagine that we would do the same with foreign nationals who would come to America to become "cowboys," yes? To make matters worse, except where such Korean institutions strengthen the authority of leaders here in the States, nobody seems much interested in the role of Korean culture as a shaping influence on the development of martial traditions. Still I can no more discount the role of Confucianism and Buddhism in the development of KMA, than I could ignore Christianity in the production of Western martial traditions. In the world of todays' fighting elite, such agreements as the Geneva Convention are invoked. Centuries ago it was Chivalry. For the Japanese there is that classic mix of Buddhisn, Shinto and Bu-jutsu that yeilded Bushido. How have we come to the place that we can purport to study Korean martial traditions and not know Shamanism, Buddhism and Mu-sool? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce, I stand corrected. In my confusion, I thought we were on opposite sides of the fence. We just view it from different tangents that's all. Perhaps this next statement may be to simplistic, but it's how I view martial arts in general. From all the general given history, martial arts is a great pyramid. The top is Chinese orientated and then it filters down and out thruout the world. Each country that embraced the original teachings, then made them their own and embodied something of their own culture into the mix. This filtration is an ongoing production even today. Although in gereral, we may feel that anything "new" is unwarranted, I'm sure that that very same feeling has also been a sidebar during this filtration process. Bottom line to this dissertation is that I believe in "What it can do, Not who takes credit for it"...

Mike :asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

I don't know if I automatically put the Chinese on top of that pyramid but I know what you are saying. I also subscribe to the "what it can do" school, I just don't limit the matters strictly to the physical plane. Seems as though quite a few people would duck the philosophical or ethical aspect of the MA and make it nothing more than a sophisticated gymnastic. Picking up a rock and throwing it because an authority figure told you to is may be military. Doing the same thing to produce a higher good, when you have every good excuse not to is martial. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce