Forms = system?

[skribs]

Long-winded way to talk about ippon drills versus jiyu drills, I think.

I don't know what ippon and jiyu are, so maybe a bit more long-winded than that would help.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't know what ippon and jiyu are, so maybe a bit more long-winded than that would help.

One technique and stop versus free flowing technique.

I punch, you block and return punch. Versus I punch, you block and we're off to the races.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Unless you only plan to use 3 or 4 attacks,

This is the main point. If you can take your opponent down with your single leg, you don't have to train flying side kick, jumping spin back kick, flying knee, ...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the difference is that @Kung Fu Wang is saying:

1. I want you to attack me in this way. Then I will practice a way to defend against it.
2. I am going to attack you, and see how I can combo off my attack depending on what your response to it is.

The first option seems a lot more static once it's established, but can be a lot more dynamic. You can practice for the person throwing a straight punch, a hook, an uppercut, a couple types of backfist, a hammerfist, and that's just punches.

If you want to drill this way, you can drill tons of techniques.

Alternatively, if your style is to lead with leg kick, you might practice different ways people react to leg kicks.

Now, I disagree with KFW that this makes it less things to practice. Because you can practice a ton of techniques as well. What it seems to me is that you're breaking practice down into either:

• Defense vs. Offense
• Muscle Memory vs. Failure Drills

I think I see what you're saying. I just don't see a hard distinction between them. We all have to be able to handle what comes at us, because as much as we want to control the context, so does the other guy...and he might be better at it in that moment. Once I've reacted, we're back to the same thing - I've thrown that leg kick, for instance, and we're into the combinations. Whether I start it as a response or get to initiate it, the potential progression is much the same.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you

- let your girl to take you to the Macy's store, you will spend a lot of money.
- take your girl to the Dollar store, you won't.

I'm not sure that's at all analogous (nor even true, in my case ).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is the main point. If you can take your opponent down with your single leg, you don't have to train flying side kick, jumping spin back kick, flying knee, ...

You're throwing in more complicated techniques. I'd still probably need straight punch, jab, hook, kick, hip throw, etc., in case he doesn't leave a good opening for that single-leg. Or I'm left trying to manufacture that one thing I'm planning to do. It's much easier to work with the openings presented than to have to force the one you want.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So it's more like "I wash the dishes and you dry them" vs. "I dry the dishes and you wash them".

It's not the same.

- When I drag you in circle, if you are not used to it, that will be my advantage.
- When you roundhouse kick my leg, if I'm not used to it, that will be your advantage.

I may train something that you are not good at. You may train something that I'm not good at.

Not everybody like to deal with an opponent who loves to run around him in circle.

 

[Walkingapath]

The forms contain pretty much everything you need to know. However, the more I study the forms and other martial arts, the more I understand that they are written in a code and the means to decipher the code isn't always taught.

I'm going to use the Shotokan Heian kata to illustrate a couple of examples.

In the Heian kata, there's a frequent position colloquially called "cup and saucer". It's basically both fists pulled to one side of the body, with one fist stacked on top of the other. It's often right before some technique. People assign all sorts of applications to this position but I don't think it is an application. It is an instruction. It tells the student which side of the body should be turned towards the opponent for the technique that follows. The side with the stacked fists is the back side. When the student sees the stacked fists in the kata, it's a sign that they should pivot the body on the stacked side leg before executing the technique. An example of this is the first 2 kicks in Heian Yondan. The karateka isn't kicking to the left and then to the right. The stacked hands tell you that the stacked side is back and the non-stacked side is forward for the kick.

Related to this is "morote uke". It's another position that people constantly try to explain as a technique. But it's not a technique. It's an instruction and a placeholder. It's based on the concept of meotode - "husband and wife" hands or the concept that the 2 hands should work together. You usually see morote uke in the kata after a sequence of movements that involve using one hand and then the other hand individually. The placement of morote uke is to tell the student that the 2 movements should be treated as a single movement - not separately.

The multiple steps teaches the body mechanics. The morote uke tells you that once you learn the steps combine them into a single fluid movement.

Heian Nidan has a great example of this after the Shutos. Starting with the Uchi Uke --> Mae Geri --> Gyaku Tsuki. Block with one hand, kick (while moving forward), then punch with the other hand. This happens twice followed by a single morote uke. If you take that sequence and execute it as a single movement, the result is a single technique where you simultaneously block and punch while stepping in on the opponent. The kicking motion works just as well as a big forward step. The hip movement that powers the block/parry also powers the gyaku tsuki at the same time. It is meotode - the 2 hands working together.

You see this in Heian Sandan after the opening sequences. Combine the first 3 steps of Sandan into a single fluid sequence and you get a fair approximation of Mawashi Uke. Sandan makes you do the sequence to the left. Then to the right. Then you are told stack fists (the instruction for which side is back and which side is forward) and given a morote uke (the instruction that the previous 3 steps should be performed as a single movement).

You see it again in Yondan where the Kake Wake-Uke is followed by the kicking motion (which signifies forward movement, not specifically a kick) and 2 punches. This is followed by 3 morote ukes. If the 3 steps from Yondan are combined into a single sequence you have this: Step forward and off the center line. While executing the 2-handed block, simultaneously drive the rear leg forward towards the opponent. Picture a left jab. You step off line with the right foot and bring the arms up in the 2-hand block. While you're pulling the blocked jab backwards with your upper body weight (Kokustu dachi), you simultaneously drive the rear leg forward towards the opponent (a twisting movement). The 3 morote ukes tell you to practice this on both sides because it's important. And then finish it with an arm technique or with the knee.

When practicing the Heian forms, it's important to be able to decipher what is instruction from what is technique. When the instructions are properly understood, what looks like stilted linear techniques combine into more fluid and applicable techniques that prepare the student for the more advanced kata.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The forms contain pretty much everything you need to know.

I doubt that's really true of any system, or an instructor could spend 6 months teaching the forms and let the student learn the rest on their own. It certainly isn't true of all systems.

However, the more I study the forms and other martial arts, the more I understand that they are written in a code and the means to decipher the code isn't always taught.

I like the rest of your post quite a lot. A point I've made in the past is that it looks to me like many forms are more esoteric than some try to see them. They train concepts and attributes more than application. I've seen forms that looked to me to be designed primarily to teach flow and smoothness, the movements and transitions ranging from "easy to flow" (to give the student a feel of what they're looking for) to "likely to become abrupt" (to give the student something to work on). The same with some forms that look like they're focusing on driving linear force, and so on. Though I can't really speak to how universal it is, I like your idea that the stacked hands might have been added just to give the student a cue in training.

I don't know if you're right about any of that - we never will know the original purpose of the movements in most forms - but I like the approach you take.

 

[Walkingapath]

I doubt that's really true of any system, or an instructor could spend 6 months teaching the forms and let the student learn the rest on their own. It certainly isn't true of all systems.

I can't speak for any system outside of karate so you're probably right.

I like the rest of your post quite a lot. A point I've made in the past is that it looks to me like many forms are more esoteric than some try to see them. They train concepts and attributes more than application. I've seen forms that looked to me to be designed primarily to teach flow and smoothness, the movements and transitions ranging from "easy to flow" (to give the student a feel of what they're looking for) to "likely to become abrupt" (to give the student something to work on). The same with some forms that look like they're focusing on driving linear force, and so on. Though I can't really speak to how universal it is, I like your idea that the stacked hands might have been added just to give the student a cue in training.

I don't know if you're right about any of that - we never will know the original purpose of the movements in most forms - but I like the approach you take.

Definitely agree. I think people become so fixated on technical applications that they forget that the kata are training tools, not just technique encyclopedias. And training covers more than just learning new techniques. To me, it's like reading a sentence. If someone isn't taught that commas aren't letters, they might try to assign a sound to the "," and then wonder why it makes no sense to the sentence.

Everything has meaning - not everything is technique. Okay, that sounded a little hokey.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Everything has meaning - not everything is technique. Okay, that sounded a little hokey.

Now you know how instructors end up sounding that way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the kata are training tools, not just technique encyclopedias.

Have to disagree with you on this. The form is a teaching/learning tool. It's not for training. The solo drill is for training.

The form is like "This is a book. I like you."
The solo drills are:

- This is a book. This is a pen. This is not a car. ...
- I like you. I like her. I don't like him, ...

The form - groin kick, face punch.
Solo drills can be:

- straight groin kick, straight face punch.
- side kick, spin back fist.
- roundhouse kick, hook punch.
- foot sweep, face punch.
- ...

Can you tell the difference between form and drill? The form only shows one part of the drill (finite). But the drill can be expended into many (infinite).

 

[skribs]

Now you know how instructors end up sounding that way.

There are a lot of things that I thought 5 years ago "I'd leave a school if they acted this way" and then I end up doing the same thing.

For example, the idea that there's techniques that are super-secret and can only be taught to higher belts. Then a purple belt sees me doing a jump spinning hook kick and asks if I can teach them, and I tell them "when you get red belt". Because they're simply not ready for it yet.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have to disagree with you on this. The form is a teaching/learning tool. It's not for training. The solo drill is for training.

The form is like "This is a book. I like you."
The solo drills are:

- This is a book. This is a pen. This is not a car. ...
- I like you. I like her. I don't like him, ...

The form - groin kick, face punch.
Solo drills can be:

- straight groin kick, straight face punch.
- side kick, spin back fist.
- roundhouse kick, hook punch.
- foot sweep, face punch.
- ...

Can you tell the difference between form and drill? The form only shows one part of the drill (finite). But the drill can be expended into many (infinite).

The terms can be a bit interchangeable. If I train someone, am I teaching them?

 

[skribs]

The terms can be a bit interchangeable. If I train someone, am I teaching them?

Teach - This is how I do it
Train - This is how you do it

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The terms can be a bit interchangeable. If I train someone, am I teaching them?

I go to school to learn. I train at home. Training to me is doing my homework.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Teach - This is how I do it
Train - This is how you do it

Perhaps. I try to teach people how the techniques work, so they can learn to do it their own way.

But I was speaking more in a broader use of the words. I'm a trainer. When I show up at a company to help train people, am I teaching them? Yes. Teaching is part of the training process.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I go to school to learn. I train at home. Training to me is doing my homework.

That's a valid use of the terms, John, but not the only one. It's not uncommon for someone to say, "He trained me to do X." Or, "He taught me to do X."

My only point is that, while the distinction you are drawing can be useful, @Walkingapath's usage of "training" isn't incorrect.

 

[Danny T]

“Teaching” and “training” though often used interchangeably there are differences that make them distinct. Both are important when done effectively, but have different roles and outcome.

Teaching is more theoretical and for passing on knowledge whereas training (when well done) is more hands-on and practical. Teaching seeks to impart knowledge and provide information, while training is for the development of abilities and skills.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

“Teaching” and “training” though often used interchangeably there are differences that make them distinct. Both are important when done effectively, but have different roles and outcome.

Teaching is more theoretical and for passing on knowledge whereas training (when well done) is more hands-on and practical. Teaching seeks to impart knowledge and provide information, while training is for the development of abilities and skills.

I agree that's a more applicable distinction.