for real or fake?

[Turner]

The instructor is a 2nd Degree Black Belt in Kyokushin Karate. He competed but was never a champion and never claimed to be. So far noone has graduated from the school and so he hasn't produced any champions yet. He believes that He can produce champions because he knows where his failings were and he believes as most instructors do that he can teach his students to be much better than he is.

I personally doubt that there will be many to graduate from the program. As mentioned here, the PR isn't all that great. He would joke about people who would write asking if it was a cult... His problem is that he doesn't have much money to make a better website or have better advertisement. He keeps all of the information as quiet as possible because it ensures that only the most serious people apply... but I think he's also losing a lot of attention for that same reason. The BudoKarateHouse is registered as a non-profit organization and has a board that works to get donations so that he can eventually stop having his students get jobs... One of the members of the board is a congresswoman.

Spiritual stuff... You bow as you would in a regular martial arts class and that is pretty much it. I had difficulty with him because I have specific religious beliefs that require that I remain covered and he didn't like the idea of my wearing a Tee-shirt under my gi... which is insisted on because the gi could fly open in training. We fixed that by sewing the gi shut with a grommet. It really isn't my place to say, but He's an atheist. It is my point of view that he has a problem with organized religion... so I don't think that anyone would have a problem with him being too spiritual.

As someone wrote before, the major problem at first is that you work for 10 hours a day only for an hour of training. But Mr. Ligo is extremely careful and want to work his students into the training rather than thrusting them into a 7 hour training program that only the most athletic can survive. As I said, I started the program at 260 and I couldn't run more than two miles without serious struggling. He worked me up until i was running 5 miles every day (took an hour), spent an hour lifting weights, and an hour training Kyokushin basics and forms. So in two months I was already up to three hours of training per day.

Over all I thought that he was fair and the idea was a great one. I really wish that I had stayed. I think that he could do a whole lot better of a job, but with experience and a few successful graduations I think that people will come around.

The head student, Mr. Schwartz, was quite the guy. He had no previous martial arts training but after a year in the program he was kicking my butt even though I had 15 years of training. The difference between full contact fighting and what I had been doing was astounding. I thought I could hold my own, but they tore me apart... And I loved every second of it. It was good to realize that I had quite a ways to go. I thrive in a disciplined environment like the military and that program and I really believe that I never should have left... but I am more into the MMA type of fighting and He has a serious disdain for MMA. Kyokushin is a very Traditional form of Karate.. and he was only really interested in producing stand-up, kickboxing champions.. Well, I can say kickboxing or the kickboxers will scream at me.. Whatever those kyokushin guys do... the type of fighting that Mas Oyama started up. I think one of the type of competition he supported was the Sabaki Challenge.

 

[Cruentus]

Interesting info. I hope you don't mind more questions:

How many students were with him at a given time?

How many students graduated from the program to date, do your think (estimate or give your opinion if you don't know for sure)?

Thanks,
PAUL

:asian:

 

[Turner]

I have no problem answering questions.

When I first arrived I was the only student. I remained that way for two weeks until another student arrived. He lasted two days and went home... his excuse was that I snored too loud.

By the end of that week, Mr. Shwartz returned (he had quit, but was welcomed back... And for the majority of the time that I was there it was just me and him. When I left three other students had arrived within a short period of time and so there were five of us there at once. I quit at the end of that week.

I was there late 2000 and early 2001. By my estimation, Mr. Shwartz could be close to graduation if he didn't quit again. No one else has been there long enough to graduate.

Due to the lack of updates on the website it is my impression that most likely there are no longer any students at the program and so there is nothing to update.

 

[Turner]

After looking at the website again, The first student, Mr. Schwartz left again after I did and so there is no one that could have graduated yet.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Kyokushin people tend to be damn tough. No question about that.

But no--I repeat no--second degree in any art, and certainly not in a traditional one--is remotely qualified to take this degree of control over people's lives. Among other things, they haven't begun to have time to sort through the difference between their fantasies about training and what's actually necessary.

And the bit about full-contact training...that only intensifies...there are a lot of considerations in the martial arts, and getting to forty without a bad back and bad knees and bone spurs and bursitis and a bad neck is one of them.

If this guy is actually in Kyokushin, and folks are actually doing this...

 

[Turner]

Sir,

I'm not sure I understand your point. A 2nd Degree Black Belt doesn't have enough time in the martial arts to determine what is truth and what is fantasy? Rank and experience often have little to do with each other. I've seen 3rd Degree Black Belts who were 12 years old. I've also seen 3rd Degree Black Belts who had 40 years of experience.

I don't speak with fact because I don't know either of them personally, but to use an example:
I believe I've seen Mr. O'Bryant claim 17 years experience in Kenpo (I'm not positive.)
Mr. Conaster's website says that he started Kenpo in 71 which gives him 32 years experience in Kenpo.
They are the same rank.
I've seen many more people who have 17 years in an art at the level of 3rd Dan. Perhaps Mr. O'Bryant is an exceptional martial artist but I think that it would be very arrogant to assume that simply because he is a 6th Dan with 17 years of experience that he would be more mature and have a better grasp of the martial arts in general than say a 3rd Dan with 20 years of experience. Things just don't mesh like that. Some people just don't care enough about rank to test as soon as they are ready.

Does Mr. Ligo have the experience to take that degree of control over someone's life? He trained for two years in the same type of program in Japan. He trained for several years in Romania helping a friend establish the same type of program there. You learn from direct experience. I would say that he would be more qualified running that type of program than most other Kyokushin players in the US because he's actually experienced the training while most have not.

I wasn't brainwashed either. I personally believe that there are areas where the program could be more effective and efficient. I believe he focused too much on the lifestyle and not enough on the training. I believe that different food, more low intensity training, better advertisement and better training facilities would greatly improve the number of students in the program and increase the student's morale and keep them there longer. He knows enough about training to make sure people can survive and achieve the goals the program sets out to ahcieve... but there are areas that can be improved.

I realize that I have a unique perspective because I was there and experienced the program. Just because people percieve something as a fraud doesn't make it so and just because I defend because I was there and believe in the program doesn't necessarily validate it. I have the gift of personal experience while you will only have second hand experience and I don't think I can do justice to what I experienced. Personally, I hate defending it but I don't know of any other member of martialtalk that is qualified to speak about it.

 

[rmcrobertson]

So what you're telling me is, a guy with two years of training in Japan, and "several years," in Romania helping to run some training camp--in other words, figuring that this is about five or six years total, less training and martial arts experience than I had when I got a black belt about six or seven years ago, is qualified to take over nearly all of every one of your days and tell you what to do?

What does Clyde have to do with this?

All's I can tell you is, I've got way more education and teaching experience that you're describing, and I wouldn't begin to consider that I'm qualified for something like that. It's way too much power, with way too little in the way of checks.

But sure, whatever you say.

 

[Turner]

Your right, perhaps I shouldn't have used that as an example. Over all Mr. Ligo has around 20 years in the martial arts.

You are asking if he is qualified to run someone's life. You can't compare it to your experience in the martial arts and teaching because it is apples and oranges.

What makes a person qualified to do something? In the martial arts we don't have many instructor training courses in which you obtain your black belt and then attend another course where you learn how to teach. Once you reach your black belt you are then automatically qualified to promote someone else up to brown belt. You are qualified through experience.

In the military a drill instructor which has more control over a person's life than this training camp will have over a person's life only requires that they go through basic training and then through drill instructor school which is basic training all over again but with emphasis on regulations. My drill instructor was a mere E-4, a rank you can obtain within 4 years. I think He had 6 years over all and yet he was put in charge of EVERY aspect of 50 people's lives. What made him qualified? Experience and a training program.

Mr. Ligo studied for 6 or more years prior to going to Japan. He earned his black belt and then went. The program he went to and the program he now teaches is designed to instructor the student on the information AND on how to run such a program. Then he went on to assist in running a very successful program in Romania (The pictures I've seen of the place showed that it had around 100 students).

Qualified? How can you establish a qualification to something that never has been standardized? Who can say who is qualified to control another person's life? You learn through experience. When a parent first has a child what qualifications do they have to control every aspect of that child's life?

Like I said, I don't like to defend the guy because it's really an awkward position for me. I only attended the school for 2 months and my level of comparison is the similar programs that I went through in the military. I know of no other frame of reference. All I know is that he did a decent job in 'controlling our lives.' Yet I can't say that he did a great job. I feel like I could have done a better job based totally on my experience there and on my experience in the military. Am I truly qualified to take on the task of running such a program? Who can say?

In my job I help train people to do my job. Am I qualified? It was all based on experience. Am I qualified to teach a child how to tie a shoe? I have no certificate saying that I'm qualified to, but I have been doing it almost every day of my life.

What it comes down to is that this is a silly conversation. You've stated that you think that this guy is a fraud based on very little information and so you will continue to defend your position. I understand that and so we'll leave it at that.

People believe that this is some guy who is looking for people to send in their $5 to $20 donation to get an information package and they'll never hear from them again. That isn't true. In that way this place is not a fraud.

People believe that this is the leader of some cult that tried to lure young kids in and then brainwashes them to believe certain spiritual beliefs. That isn't true. In that way this place is not a fraud.

It is what it says it is. It is a place where you go and spend three years of a life totally dedicated to learning Kyokushin Karate. Yes, you'll have to get a job in order to pay for your room and board but he isn't going to take any of that money and spend it on himself. Believe me, I saw where he lives and I saw the car that he drove. He certainly isn't using it for himself. You might also find in Black Belt magazine an advertisement for punching bags. He buys the shells and fills them just to earn a little more money. The place is what it advertises. Is he qualified to run such a program? No one can answer that because there is no way to determine that. Yet, even if he is not qualified to run the program it still can't be considered a fraud because it is providing exactly what it offers. You know before hand how you are going to live your life. Before you get accepted you have to spend time getting to know what is expected of you.

It's a training course that you can survive through and if you make it through you will be a very good full contact martial artist. If you are worried about getting beat up. You are going to get beat up. If you are worried about being bruised and bloodied, you will get bruised and bloodied. it is a full contact martial art program after all. If you are worried about not being given enough to eat you are wrong. I ate more than I was used to and would actually throw away meals at work because I wasn't accustomed to eating so much, but it was necessary because you were working hard and needed that much to compensate. If you are worried that you are going to be mistreated just because he wants to mistreat you.. you are wrong. He won't. If you are worried that he plans on changing your religious beliefs, you have nothing to fear.

If you're concerned with establishing a pedigree and having nice fancy certificates, you probably won't last long because that is what this program is against. If you are interested in being coddled and told what a good job you did in class you won't last long because you'll always be told that you can do better... because you can. The program is about pushing you to your own limits. There are certainly risks involved and perhaps the first risk to overcome is the worry about what the program is all about. The first fear is that you don't know what you are getting into, you don't know what is in store for you at the end of your journey to the program.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Turner
Your right, perhaps I shouldn't have used that as an example. Over all Mr. Ligo has around 20 years in the martial arts.

You are asking if he is qualified to run someone's life. You can't compare it to your experience in the martial arts and teaching because it is apples and oranges.

What makes a person qualified to do something? In the martial arts we don't have many instructor training courses in which you obtain your black belt and then attend another course where you learn how to teach. Once you reach your black belt you are then automatically qualified to promote someone else up to brown belt.

Instructors licenses are "usually" separate from the blackbelt. "Usually" a blackbelt receives their first instructors license at Nidan.

There are "apprentice" licenses which I received as a brown belt but that was a part of my "Instructor training" which started at Gokyu.

:asian:

 

[Shinzu]

i dont see anything but text and anyone can write a text website with false info....i say its junk

 

[Fightfan00]

Looks like a sham to me

 

[rmcrobertson]

In the first place, come to think of it, I was wondering about exactly what "akja" (when, oh when, are we going to stop with these silly names?) noted: if he's from a traditional Japanese school, shouldn't he have a teaching certificate?

And why don't you know? I was under the impression that in the traditional arts, there should be pictures of your teacher's teachers and the style's founder, somewhere in very plain view...

I was talking to my first teacher, Toni, about this string. She tells me that the Shotokan folks in California run their, 'special training," retreat, once or twice a year, up in the mountains...Mr. Ohshima runs things, always, and he started training in pre-War Japan...it lasts three days.

We're not talking about teaching here. We're talking about giving over every minute of your life to somebody, for years. There are very restricted numbers of people I would even consider allowing this much power--very advanced, traditional Buddhist teachers, very senior martial artists. It is too much power, and it isn't necessary to training.

As for military DIs, well, how long is boot camp? And unless I'm hallucinating, there is an extremely strict set of regs governing military instructors....

And to put the cherry on top...I have more teaching experience than the guy you're describing...and more varied experience with students, I'll bet...and I wouldn't dream of trying to do this with students.

 

[RCastillo]

been addressed before. It's a cult, or a way to latch on to you to screw your head every which way.:shrug:

 

[tshadowchaser]

Any place that says you can not leave for the first 6 months better be a jail or the military. The idea is great but this one smells like a fish market

 

[theletch1]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
Any place that says you can not leave for the first 6 months better be a jail or the military. The idea is great but this one smells like a fish market

Even the Marine Corps let ya, nay made ya, go home for 10 days after your 3 months in boot camp.

As for military DIs, well, how long is boot camp? And unless I'm hallucinating, there is an extremely strict set of regs governing military instructors....

Boot camp when I went through was 13 weeks. The regs that DIs had to endure were as tough on them as boot camp was on us. We did have one DI that was relieved of duty half way through the series...long story, I'll relate it later. One of the things he was relieved for though was shoving a recruit over his foot locker. Not normally a problem but the DI tripped and fell into the corner of the recruits rack (bed) and sliced his arm open. He required a bunch of stitches which meant an investigation. For every rule there is a loop hole, of course and ways to do things you aren't supposed to without getting caught and the guy in the previous thread seems to have a handle on getting by with things he shouldn't be doing.

 

[RHD]

Regarding the original question...The school looks bogus and probably is a culty ripoff thing. But I've learned that here on martial talk that these kinds of opinions are frowned upon and the moderators don't like it if you try to reveal something for what it is. So...I'm sure it's a great school with highly qualified instructors and time proven and tested methods :2xBird2:

Mike

 

[Flatlander]

Regarding the original question...The school looks bogus and probably is a culty ripoff thing. But I've learned that here on martial talk that these kinds of opinions are frowned upon and the moderators don't like it if you try to reveal something for what it is. So...I'm sure it's a great school with highly qualified instructors and time proven and tested methods :2xBird2:

Mike

2 things:

1) Mike, although you are the Grandmaster of Say Fong Kuen, you are still subject to the rules of Martial Talk. If you have issues with the way you've been treated by the Moderation team, take it up with our boss. That would be Seig. I'm sure he'd love to hear from you. Be sure to at least try to support your allegations with evidence, as opposed to finger pointing and general complaining. Publicly insulting the integrity of the Moderation staff is the wrong way to resolve your issue.

2) The website didn't work for me, it says it's under construction.

Dan Bowman
-Martial Talk Moderator-

 

[tshadowchaser]

RHD

go back two post from yours and read post 34. What the do you think I was saying. And am I just chopped meat?

I still think it smells fishy.

As far as the milatary DI's go , well I had my time with them befor most on this forum where pobably born. They still had rules but the rules where nuch less strict back then. They did there job and you came out of it stronger, or you repeated the process I may not have loved them but I sure as hell respected them and what they where trying to do

 

[terryl965]

2 things:

1) Mike, although you are the Grandmaster of Say Fong Kuen, you are still subject to the rules of Martial Talk. If you have issues with the way you've been treated by the Moderation team, take it up with our boss. That would be Seig. I'm sure he'd love to hear from you. Be sure to at least try to support your allegations with evidence, as opposed to finger pointing and general complaining. Publicly insulting the integrity of the Moderation staff is the wrong way to resolve your issue.

2) The website didn't work for me, it says it's under construction.

Dan Bowman
-Martial Talk Moderator-

Flatlander I for one think the Moderator on MT does a great job keeping out the rift. I for one would not like to be in anyone of your shoes when you have to make a decission on people comments. I think Mike was just venting a little, just like we all need to once in a while. MT is probaly the best forum for actual topics of so many styles of MA. I know I have learned so much about the different Art from some pretty interesting people if it was not from this forum I would have never known. GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[phlaw]

I figured I would open this discussion back up, it looks like there is more info on the website, and it sounds like there have been some students actually not make it through the training.

Any if them out there?