FMA MCDOJO now i have seen it all

[Bob Hubbard]

Heres another question. Who will reconize the promotion?

To some, grading 'stopped' with Remys death. To others, they are working with the established organizations on promotion. Still the question remains...who will make the determination?

Since the organizations usually set the curiculum, if you aren't familiar with it, how can you test it?

Will either IMAF reconize a promotion done by the WMAA? Will MARPPIO reconize an IMAF promotion? If its done by an independent board, why should they?

Having trained with many kenpoists, I see problems. School a does a technique one way, school b has made its own 'tweaks' and school c uses a newer reference guide. So, who determines which is right? I've seen a few of the seniors move. They dont move the same. Sometimes, they conflict each other when 'correcting' students. Why? Because they each see things differently.

Unless this idea is done carefully, it runs the risk of being clasified as nothing more than a 'certificate mill'. (See the Bad Budo forum for definitions).

Another question is, how many levels will folks jump? A few people haven't been promoted in a heck of a long time. We all jump on Ms. McManus for getting her 3rd a few weeks after she got her 2nd. So, we gonna jump a few folks from 3rd to 8th? Why? If you're gonna do that, what meaning does any of the rank have? I think we have enough paper black belts in the arts as it is.

My opinion is, I agree with bloodwood.

Personally I feel that if you want to get promoted, become part of any one of the different Modern Arnis organizations out there, it doesn't matter which one, and be a productive member that supports and helps the group to prosper.
Promotion should be for skill and for dedication to your chosen group.
Not just grab the promotion and run.

And just so you know, I am NOT dissing the symposium. This is not about the symposium. My comments are only on the way of doing these promotions. I think the symposium is a great idea and I hope it goes well.

:asian:

 

[Brian Johns]

Originally posted by bloodwood

So what you are saying is that you and presenters at the symposium will set the standards for rank promotions in Modern Arnis, without the need for being associated with any organization. What will the certificates say at the top? Who will recognize these promotions? Datu Hartman was promoted within his organization and Dieter was promoted by high ranking old timers in the PI. If they were to test under the guidelines you are stating they still woud be getting promoted by those of lesser rank. So it would be no different than Datu Hartman's promotion except it would be done by the no name promotion board and not an organizational thing.

Personally I feel that if you want to get promoted, become part of any one of the different Modern Arnis organizations out there, it doesn't matter which one, and be a productive member that supports and helps the group to prosper.
Promotion should be for skill and for dedication to your chosen group.
Not just grab the promotion and run.

bloodwood [/B]

Based on how I read Dr. Barber's post, I would have to completely agree with bloodwood's analysis. Perhaps Dr. Barber can clarify what he is proposing. But I read it the same way that bloodwood did. If the standards for promotion are going to be set by this board without regard to association one of the organizations, I think that this proposal is doomed to failure and will be disregarded. I think that most organizations are going to want to handle their promotions on their own. I would think that this is an area that most organizations are going to agree to disagree.

I am in 100% agree with the next to last paragraph of bloodwood's post with regard to getting involved with an organization and supporting it and promoting the aims of that organization. As said so eloquently by bloodwood "promotion should be for skill and for dedication to your chosen group."

Perhaps we can get clarification from Dr. Barber on this proposal ??

These are my views and not the views of the IMAF, Inc.

Take care,
Brian Johns

 

[Bob Hubbard]

MT is like Cheers...we all know your name, NORM!!!!

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
there are a number of individuals who don't belong to any of the associations and don't feel the need to be. They are frozen in rank while they become better at the art.

Is that clear? I'm not sure that it is--maybe someone out there is willing to promote those who are not members of his organization.

Frankly, the Professor retained authority for black belt promotions nearly to himself--one could argue that most of us are assuming any promotion authority we may think we have.

In Modern Arnis, all were junior to Remy Presas.

And much of the authority remained with him. If one believes that only the IMAF's MOTTs have authority in his passing, the Philippines Modern Arnis folks are over-reaching their authority, for example. It's a mess. I honestly believe the Prof. would want us to do the best we could.

I believe he trusted and respected my judgment and my goodwill, based on things he said to me--I feel I would be in his good graces in moving forward as best I could and, as he always wanted us to do, in sharing the art.

I have no doubt that everyone else would say the same, and be just as correct!

 

[Brian Johns]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Since the organizations usually set the curiculum, if you aren't familiar with it, how can you test it?

Will either IMAF reconize a promotion done by the WMAA? Will MARPPIO reconize an IMAF promotion? If its done by an independent board, why should they?

[/B]

Kaith has identified the central problem with the idea of a promotions board.

For example, does this mean that this promotion board will travel to the Seattle area to test, grade and promote Datu Kelly Worden's students ? Somehow, I just don't think that'll work. Remember, the different organizations represent different flavors of Modern Arnis from different time periods. So what standards are going to apply to organizations that practice the 1980's version of Modern Arnis as opposed to the 1990's version of Modern Arnis ? I have a very hard time seeing how this will work.

Take care,
Brian Johns

 

[Dan Anderson]

Kaith,
You are right on the money in citing the differences between seniors. It's not only in kenpo but in other arts as well, including how Tim and I move. That's life in any art. You're also right on the money in that anything being a certificate mill is a bad idea. How many levels will a person jump at the Symposium? No data but one of the reasons I agreed to be on the board is so I could have some positive influence. Personally, I don't think this is going to be a "trampoline promotion fest" nor will I lend my agreement to it. Nor is this going to be an declaring of who is the "best of the best" in Modern Arnis either.

Brian,
Yes, most organizations are going to handle promotions on their own. This is for the ronin. Not everybody belongs to a group.

This is my understanding of the promotion aspect of the symposium. Jerome could state it better than I and can handle your questions as well.

Yours,

()

PS - Will somebody help me get back my name?

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by arnisador
1. Frankly, the Professor retained authority for black belt promotions nearly to himself--one could argue that most of us are assuming any promotion authority we may think we have.

2. And much of the authority remained with him. If one believes that only the IMAF's MOTTs have authority in his passing, the Philippines Modern Arnis folks are over-reaching their authority, for example. It's a mess. I honestly believe the Prof. would want us to do the best we could.

3. I believe he trusted and respected my judgment and my goodwill, based on things he said to me--I feel I would be in his good graces in moving forward as best I could and, as he always wanted us to do, in sharing the art.

I have no doubt that everyone else would say the same, and be just as correct!

Arnisador,

1. Eeeeyyaaahhhhhhh! Marvelous counter-point! Prof. told Tim once regarding promoting anyone to Black Belt on their own, "Tim. I don't even let Dan Anderson do that."

2. Much? How about all? One could put any organization's call letters in the second sentence and it would be valid. I know Arnisador isn't shooting at the MOTTs but making an example.

3. Yes. Absolutely.

Yours,

( )

PS - If nobody is going to help me on this name business, I'm going to do it myself. Darth Rustaz, your suggestion is rejected.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Heres another question.
. . .

So, we gonna jump a few folks from 3rd to 8th?

. . .

:asian:

Kaith,

What are you doing giving away my plans???

Just because, I got drunk and told you my evil plans. :EG: Does not mean you can tell the world :wah:

I had such hopes to get that 8th Degree.

Oh Well, I will just have to remain where I am at, and gain the respect of others one beer at a time.

:rofl:

Enjoy your day, I do

 

[bloodwood]

Dan
My no name refference was to the name for the testing board not to those on that board or any disrespect to those on that board.

Now that you have made it known that you will be part of this testing board, Who will sit with you? Is it all the presenters at the symposium or just certain ones?

As for certificates given out by the Professor, some of mine say IMAF and others say Modern Arnis Federation of the Philippines. Both however were for achievement in HIS organization, the IMAF.

For the lone wolves out there who don't need to belong to any group, rank shouldn't matter to them either.

bloodwood

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by bloodwood
Dan
My no name refference was to the name for the testing board not to those on that board or any disrespect to those on that board.

Now that you have made it known that you will be part of this testing board, Who will sit with you? Is it all the presenters at the symposium or just certain ones?

bloodwood

Blood,

I actually didn't think you truely meant disrespect but thought I'd better make light of it before someone took it seriously.

To my knowledge, the board will for sure consist of myself, Dieter Knuettel, Bram Frank, Tom Bolden and Jerome Barber with Tim Hartman lending his recomendations but not actually part of the grading board. This is his decision and has to do with by-laws in the WMAA. There will probably be others but these are who I am certain of. Note: I did not make up the board so the above info might be wrong.

As somewhat of a lone wolf myself, I care about validation for my efforts and rank is a method of validation used in Modern Arnis. All for now.

Oh. Per the above quote, I now have my name back. Big thanks to all of you who didn't aid me one bit in this endeavor. Thanks a big bunch!
:moon:

Yours,
the recently reinstated Dan Anderson

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
I had such hopes to get that 8th Degree.

Oh Well, I will just have to remain where I am at, and gain the respect of others one beer at a time.

Rikki,

By the power invested in me, I now promote you to 8th Grade. Have fun in high school this fall.

Yours,
the recently reinstated Dan Anderson

PS - you'll need to get more than one beer in me to get my respect. :rofl:

 

[Rocky]

Manilla 1956, a fairly good sized, strong agressive Balintawak practioner, comes to the conclusion that the one on one method of training may produce good fighters, but the arts were not growing or being introduced to the world, like Karate or Kung Fu. So he figures a way to modifiy and blend the knowledge that he has accumulated over the years with a Karate type of teaching structor, and BAM !!! he emerges as GRAND MASTER REMY PRESAS 10 Degree BLackbelt!!!!!! WOW!!! who gave him that 10th degree!!!! All he did was create a new way of teaching. But in reality that isn't that special, people re invent new ways of teaching all the time. Ask someone like Master Anderson if he hasn't changed the way he teaches, from time to time over the years and years and yeaaarrrs When he grows and learns, he passes it on to his student as do most of us. Whats my point here?? Well an organization or an art needs a leader, if its going to function properly. As long as that person can demonstrate the skills or knowledge that is usually associated with that rank, which Remy sure as hell could do whats the problem. And sometime's extream situations call for extream measures. And if it is TIm Hartman you are hinting at, what woud you rather have had him do. Remy's rank system was definately left somewhat a mess. And Tim's organization felt this was there best way at handling a situation they were faced with. It may or may not be your way or my way, but he made a desision for the better of his oraganizaation and the art he is trying to help preserve. And his skills are as good as many others I have met with even high rank than his. If you don't like it you don't have to train with him.

Secondly if you are not active in his oraganization or even the art what do you care.

As far as the fast food martial arts in America you are correct, it is rampid. In modern arnis you have current grand Masters or high ranking masters with 10 to 15 years of training, to me thats not much time. BUT WHO GAVE THEM THIS RANK MY FRIEND. Let see he was not born in the U.S.A, he didn't look European!!! Can you figure it out yet skippy!! Thats right it was Remy you know that guy from dare I say.......... the Philipines!! And there are many others promoted in Pekiti Tersia, Doce Paris, Balintawak, and its various blends, all promoted to ranks that may not be appropreat for there skill level, it happeens in every art, and quite often by Non American born personal trying to make MONEY!!!!!

So far from what I can see Tim does a pretty damn professional job of keeping and running a tight ship, something many of the grand Masters out there could learn from.

Yours truely

Rankless Rocky!

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Rocky
So far from what I can see Tim does a pretty damn professional job of keeping and running a tight ship, something many of the grand Masters out there could learn from.

Yours truely

Rankless Rocky!

:asian:

 

[norshadow1]

Originally posted by bloodwood
Promotions in Modern Arnis were given to members of the IMAF. They were given these promotions, for what ever reason, to show their advancement in the Organization, not arnis in general. As in all other martial arts, promotion are done within the different organizations not in general, say for all the Kenpo groups to recognize all kempo promotions.

bloodwood

I did not recall any mention of the Promotions Board that DocB wrote about in his post, testing people for ranking in "Modern Arnis". There are two IMAF's and the WMAA for that specific purpose. And since no details were released in his post, everyone is engaging in speculation. Wait until next week when DocB posts the details.

Even Kempo/Kenpo organizational rankings are not recognized by all the other organizations using the generic title.

Originally posted by Bloodwood
So what you are saying is that you and presenters at the symposium will set the standards for rank promotions in Modern Arnis, without the need for being associated with any organization. What will the certificates say at the top? Who will recognize these promotions? Datu Hartman was promoted within his organization and Dieter was promoted by high ranking old timers in the PI. If they were to test under the guidelines you are stating they still woud be getting promoted by those of lesser rank. So it would be no different than Datu Hartman's promotion except it would be done by the no name promotion board and not an organizational thing.
bloodwood [/B]

I don't recall anything of that nature being written by DocB. How would he or anyone else set the standards for all of Modern Arnis? That was never hinted at in anything that I have read or heard the man say. I can't tell what the certificate will say, as for who will recognize the validity of the promotions, I would tend to believe that it will depend upon the individual person and organizational leaders as always. Hell, I know that Delaney does not recognize any rank certification other than his own, even when the rank was awarded by the late Professor!

I would tend to believe that the individuals who want to be tested by an independent and bipartisan board of senior masters is not too worried about who will recognize the rank. As I understand the concept of this board it is being put together for those people who are not currently associated with any FMA organization.

Originally posted by bloodwood
Personally I feel that if you want to get promoted, become part of any one of the different Modern Arnis organizations out there, it doesn't matter which one, and be a productive member that supports and helps the group to prosper.
Promotion should be for skill and for dedication to your chosen group. Not just grab the promotion and run.
bloodwood [/B]

Part of the problem is that there are some people who have been part of the MAPF and IMAF under Professor, and left for any number of reasons including politics. There are a number of people who have not been promoted for years, yet they have taught, kept the art alive and chose to remain independent. A promotion from a board of senior masters would be beneficial to these people.

As far as the "... just grab the promotion and run" syndrome, can you state with clear and compelling certinty that people did not go to camps and seminars under the late Professor and engage in exactly that kind of behavior?

Originally posted by Bloodwood
And just so you know, I am NOT dissing the symposium. This is not about the symposium. My comments are only on the way of doing these promotions. I think the symposium is a great idea and I hope it goes well.

bloodwood [/B]

I am not viewing your comments as dissing the symposium. I just think that you have jumped the gun and started posting before you had any details. That said, I am hopeful that DocB has taken all of your concerns into account as he finalized the details. As posted by Dan Anderson before he lost his name, the only Senior Master who will not be an active participant on the board is Datu Hartman. That was his decision. I do not know what the certificate title will be but I doubt that it will infer any alignment with a specific organization such as the IMAF, WMAA or the like.

I can tell you that this promotional board is another offshot of the Gathering of Eagles event in 2001. Doc has discussed the concept with several GMs who attended the event for their input.
On the positive side the Promotional Board idea eliminates the need for students to participate in promoting their instructors. That is always a bad deal in terms of appearence. The fact that there is not a living GM in the particular art - Modern Arnis in this case - means that an alternate method for promotions must be developed.

With the above idea in mind AND knowing that Datu Hartman, was promoted by his own students plus the concurrence of GM Gyi and GM Jornales, neither of who are runing Modern Arnis orgaizations, the question that has to be asked is his 7th degree in Modern Arnis, Jornales Arnis or Bando? Or is it under the WMAA structure? I am not being disrepectful or denying his promotion is valid, I am simply asking the same question of Datu Hartman, that you are asking of the people who might test at the Symposium.

Lamont

 

[Dan Anderson]

Gents ( I don't know if any ladies have posted on this thread yet),

Yowsah!

Rocco,
"So he figures a way to modifiy and blend the knowledge that he has accumulated over the years with a Karate type of teaching structor, and BAM !!! he emerges as GRAND MASTER REMY PRESAS 10 Degree BLackbelt!!!!!! WOW!!! who gave him that 10th degree!!!!

Yeehah! Someone finally said it! Yes, yes, yes, and if someone didn't totally get it, yes.

"Ask someone like Master Anderson if he hasn't changed the way he teaches, from time to time over the years and years and yeaaarrrs)"

I cut my hair short to hide the grey and bald spots...or spot but it is a big one.

"So far from what I can see Tim does a pretty damn professional job of keeping and running a tight ship, something many of the grand Masters out there could learn from."

Do you mean The Little General?[/b]


Lamont,
"As posted by Dan Anderson before he lost his name,"

I got my name back with Blood saying he meant no disrespect. It was about time, too, as I had bills that needed to be paid and I didn't know what to sign.


You know, with what Rocco posted (quoted above), I just might go the Choki Motobu route. Hmmmmm...a thoght.

Yours,
No longer nameless Dan Anderson

PS - I should have put Rocco on the list of who I think might be on the testing board. Sorry, Rock.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Do you mean The Little General?

That's to close to military arnis.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by norshadow1
With the above idea in mind AND knowing that Datu Hartman, was promoted by his own students plus the concurrence of GM Gyi and GM Jornales, neither of who are runing Modern Arnis orgaizations, the question that has to be asked is his 7th degree in Modern Arnis, Jornales Arnis or Bando? Or is it under the WMAA structure? I am not being disrepectful or denying his promotion is valid, I am simply asking the same question of Datu Hartman, that you are asking of the people who might test at the Symposium.

Mr. Hartman was promoted by his organization, through its board, so the answer is "under the WMAA structure" i.e. this is WMAA rank. This was done through the actions of his own students, yes, but I find that phrasing somewhat dismissive. I would not ask anyone else to recognize the rank--it's their choice--but I do want to emphasize that he was promoted by the organization according to its rules. The organization is staffed by its members, but it's the organization as a fictitious body that promoted him.

I would also note that Mr. Jornales is a Modern Arnis datu. Full stop. His input therefore seems relevant. In the Professor's absence, turning to the datus ("chieftains" or "leaders") seems a very reasonable approach to me.

 

[JMP]

Good post
I think you have hit the nail on the head Rock, why should anyone who is not in with Hartman worry about his rank.
Personly I am not sure who runs what, I have only seen and talked to most of these people who are teaching once or twice, we need to let then alone so they can do there own thing.
They can train there way, you train yours everyone is happy.
Stop watching what the other guy rank, look at his skill, have fun and train.


Ranklesssssss
Jim

 

[bloodwood]

People put out questions about this promotion board that should be answered by DrB but instead norshadow answers.

VERY INTERESTING!!!

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by JMP

Stop watching what the other guy rank, look at his skill, have fun and train.

Ranklesssssss
Jim

Hit the nail on the head!

Yours,
Dan Anderson