Flashing Wings and Gathering Clouds

[Ceicei]

The two techniques, "Flashing Wings" and "Gathering Clouds", share many similarities and some differences in motions.

Besides the obvious, I'm wondering about the more subtle differences with the movements. I've also heard it said the pressure points/nerve strikes differ between them, but I do not see how?

Would anyone care to elaborate?

- Ceicei

 

[WhiteTiger]

Can you post a description of Gathering Clouds for us Tracy's guys.

 

[Hollywood1340]

From www.kenponet.com


1. An attacker at 12 o'clock in a left fighting stance throws a right reverse punch.

2. Step your left foot to 10:30 into a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a left inward parry to the outside of your attacker's right arm and a right inward vertical middle knuckle rake to your attacker's right ribs.

3. Immediately execute a right outward handsword to your attacker's lower right ribs.

4. Step your right foot to 1:30 into a right neutral bow to buckle your attacker's right knee with your right knee as you execute a right inward elbow to your attacker's right ribs. (Your left hand is now bracing against your attacker's right elbow.)

5. Execute a right front scoop kick to your attacker's groin as you execute a right two-finger eye hook to your attacker's left eye.

6. Plant your right scoop kick back to 7:30 into a left neutral bow facing 1:30.

7. Cross out.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Talking about the wrong tech. oops!

 

[Touch Of Death]

I guess you could work the eye gouge after you bent the guy over with the elbow on Flashing wings. The Illiad Crest is just waiting to get beat on with both techs too, I suppose.

 

[WhiteTiger]

Thanks Hollywood,

We call it Parting the Waves.

 

[Michael Billings]

You beat me to it ... I was going to say "Parting the Waves", and note that the "parting" portion of the technique was in the extension, which I did not learn until I started EPAK.

-Michael

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Hollywood1340
From www.kenponet.com


1. An attacker at 12 o'clock in a left fighting stance throws a right reverse punch.

2. Step your left foot to 10:30 into a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a left inward parry to the outside of your attacker's right arm and a right inward vertical middle knuckle rake to your attacker's right ribs.

3. Immediately execute a right outward handsword to your attacker's lower right ribs.

4. Step your right foot to 1:30 into a right neutral bow to buckle your attacker's right knee with your right knee as you execute a right inward elbow to your attacker's right ribs. (Your left hand is now bracing against your attacker's right elbow.)

5. Execute a right front scoop kick to your attacker's groin as you execute a right two-finger eye hook to your attacker's left eye.

6. Plant your right scoop kick back to 7:30 into a left neutral bow facing 1:30.

7. Cross out.

Wow! Themes aside, as I understand what was written, that first defensive move will get you killed for sure. Hope nobody is actually trying to do that on the street.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Doc
Wow! Themes aside, as I understand what was writen, that first defensive move will get you killed for sure.

Amen to that.

 

[MisterMike]

Why not? They're still talking "Ideal Phase" aren't they?

 

[M F]

Wow! Themes aside, as I understand what was written, that first defensive move will get you killed for sure. Hope nobody is actually trying to do that on the street.

Doc,
What exactly about this part will get you killed in the street? It seems to me that step to 10:30 gets you offline of the incoming punch, which I think is a pretty good idea. Maybe you could explain what you have your students do in this technique. Thanks.

 

[Kenpomachine]

What exactly about this part will get you killed in the street?

You're steping into the punch. It would be different if it wasn't a reverse punch... At least, that's how I see it, because I haven't been taught this technique.

 

[WhiteTiger]

Originally posted by Doc
Wow! Themes aside, as I understand what was written, that first defensive move will get you killed for sure. Hope nobody is actually trying to do that on the street.

Only about 35% of all Kenpo techniques start with this movement. I don't know how you can say this without invalidating the entire system.

Unless your just stirring things up to see what comes to the surface.

 

[Shiatsu]

I believe what he is saying is that the block and strike combonation will get you killed. As someone who works in apprehending people from time to time, including prisoners in Iraq, I will say this.

The mid knuckle strike is the main problem. I'm sorry but I am 5'7 and 190, I would not in my wildest dreams attempt that strike on a much larger, angry opponent moving at a full speed attack that most people here have never seen the other side of. Motions are great, but only if you can apply them when it counts.

Otherwise you are carrying a locker on your back into a fight with 200+ techniques, none of which you have ever used in a truthful combat situation.

It is kind of like the schools that practice two hand pushes from a stand still position. Hell no, have the attacker get in a football stance and truly attack the person. You will find out if you have good basics and balance or not.

As I always say " There is a difference between being a marksman on a gun range, and a marksman when you are getting shot at". Just something to think about.:asian:

 

[Blindside]

I usually use the inward parry/inward center-knuckle strike as a gunting strike to the arm. Count me amoung those who don't like the middle knuckle strike to the body.

Lamont

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by Blindside
I usually use the inward parry/inward center-knuckle strike as a gunting strike to the arm. Count me amoung those who don't like the middle knuckle strike to the body.

Lamont

The middle knuckle strikes are in quite a few places in Kenpo.

Inverted to the eye in Obscure Claws, vertically thrusted to the solar plexus in Parting Wings, in uppercut fashion in Raking Mace. I think it is a nice little modification to the normal fist.

 

[Michael Billings]

I use the inverted middle-knuckle to the sternum in Obscure Claws, we attacked the eyes with the "Claws".

The vertical middle-knuckle stike is nice for "Pin-Pointing," as anyone can testify. I have seen, oh, maybe 4-6 versions of Parting the Waves/Gathering Clouds, and I think a lot of Kenpoist are doing some version of a punch now, with more stopping power, then letting it arc through to rebound off your own waist to the next strike.

I have seen handswords and heel palms, horizontal, vertical and uppercut punches all used with the parry. Then there are the famous "Hot Hands" from the West LA school guys. Good for practice as they really elicit a reaction, without breaking or rupturing any organs.

I personally make sure my head is the 1st thing moved with my parry, and I tend to throw a low right hook, contingent on range and target availability. This is not my "Ideal", but is the way I often end up executing it against a bigger opponent.

-Michael

(edited since I cannot tell my right from my left)

 

[MisterMike]

Gathering Clouds was never really one of my favorites. As it is written above, I wouldn't really run it that way either. If you step to 10:30 and parry and strike, you're kind of "Straddling the paddle."

Also, if the middle knuckle does have an effect, most likeley he's going to hod where it hurts and cover those ribs, nullifying that handsword in the next step. (Of course there are other targets)

But I just always thought it was kind of an awkward tech anyways.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think this is on of those techs that could end up happening. Obviously if you are holding a pen or somthing in your right hand and your hand is down instead of up, and then suddenly you are attacked. Suddenly the ribs are your only target. It could happen; so, I don't see a problem practicing varrying methods of getting into the fight from this position. However to call a middle knuckle rake ideal over, say, an open handed slap is silly. My gripe with this tech is that it assumes to much injury on the first counter strike.

 

[M F]

I think a lot of Kenpoist are doing some version of a punch now, with more stopping power, then letting it arc through to rebound off your own waist to the next strike.

I do a vertical punch with a little hook on the end to get the handsword (or hammer) going. Doc said, "that first defensive move will get you killed for sure." As I see it the first defensive move is the step to 10:30 with the parry. I thought of the middle knuckle rake as the first offensive move. I have used this footwork and parry in sparring frequently, and in actual confrontations more than once. I used a similar action long before becoming involved in Kenpo, and it has worked for me without getting me killed.