Fellow Shotokan Karateka!

Discussion in 'Karate' started by chrissyp, Oct 18, 2018.

  1. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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  2. wab25

    wab25 Brown Belt

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    Sounds like you don't like arts that have katas or forms. I haven't done Muay Thai, but I did some boxing. In boxing, we didn't have katas. We had drills. We had shadow boxing. We practiced our combos solo, on bags and with a partner who had mits. Absolutely everything we did had direct practical application in the ring... Well except for all the jump rope work. I have never seen a boxer jumping rope in the middle of a fight... Why waste their time? Well, then there is the speed bag... no boxer actually punches their opponent the same way they hit a speed bag. Oh, I almost forgot... the sit ups with the medicine ball. It might be ok for a grappler, but boxers never do sit ups in a boxing match.... Then there were the silly stepping lessons, where we had to step the right direction with the right foot, no one cares how you step, only how hard you can hit...
     
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  3. Leviathan

    Leviathan Yellow Belt

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    I don't like katas or forms indeed.

    It's like signing up for a Spanish course and realizing they're teaching you Romanian. Questioning this they insist that they're teaching Spanish but even after a few years of "Spanish" you understand absolutely nothing when trying to speak with a spaniard of a Latino.

    Some then claim it's still the right thing to do because Romanian and Spanish are related as both stem from Latin. You just have to adapt what you've learned. Yeah sure, can you explain me that one more time while I'm sniffing a line of coke? It'll make perfect sense then.

    By the way I have nothing against shadow boxing as long as it remains some warm up activity.
     
  4. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I hadn't been paying attention to this thread, so just saw your last post, and this one. Before I address your last post, I want to address this one-coke doesn't magically make things make sense. And shadow boxing has a purpose only if your skilled enough and imaginative enough to make use of it.
     
  5. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Art actually has a lot of purposes. I could literally write a dissertation on it, so let me know if you want me to expand, but I'll simplify it to: a way to communicate between peoples, a way to explore, nurture and understand different perspectives. There's way more than that but I'll expand if you ask me to.
    Katas are basically fighting drills. It's combining multiple different ways of attacking, or footwork, together to give you a drill to practice. In boxing "jab cross hook uppercut" would be a kata. In fencing "Advance retreat retreat advance retreat retreat fleche" is a kata. Notice one ignores footwork, and one is only footwork. From what I know of shotokan, their kata trains both strikes and footwork. How is drilling those useless or counterproductive?
    That's a very legitimate way to grab a roundhouse kick. If you can't accomplish it, that's on you. You either haven't trained it enough, or haven't used it in sparring enough.
    I wasn't sure what these are, but from a quick google search, I saw two very quick uses for them. The first is being behind timing, a way to protect yourself. The second is as a jamming technique, which would involve stepping forward, stopping the persons attack before it gets serious, and using a short-range counter. I can get how this may not work in sparring though, since a lot of schools have rules for sparring that involve no elbows/knees/throws, which is what I would follow a jamming technique with.

    From a quick google, this looks like either a jab, or a lunging straight punch? Are you suggesting those aren't effective?

    Please do. None of what you stated actually seems impractical. Maybe you just went to a bad school where they didn't explain it all properly?
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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  6. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    In fairness to Leviathan, many of the older Shotokan orgs use kata as a selling tool without ever exploring their application.

    I had hoped that after near 2 decades of work on yhe subject being available, most schools would have evolved. But in the olden days kata were a talking point, not a guideline for training. The mystery surrounding them was a way for the teacher to look like some keeper of deeper knowledge when the truth was that almost no one under the Shotokan banner had the first clue why you should practice the "defensive" shuto uke while moving forward.

    I was lucky to start training pnly a couple of years before most of the work in the field of kata application was just starting to be published. That being said, there's really no excuse for anyone training post 2010 to not know how to use kata. The internet is the most amazing information resource in human history and it has been filled with kata application.

    So given that Leviathan has only found his way now to a potential resource to understand kata after he has abandoned the practice it makes me wonder if deriding TMA wasn't his main reason to find this forum?

    No judgement if it is, I don't mind a good argument. But I am curious why he (you) never went looking for answers online when you were training in Shotokan?

    Anyway, this is one of the better video examples of the potential of kata.

     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  7. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Without even looking any further, shoto uke is a fairly useful block on its own. Beyond that if you look at @Tez3 's links any questions should be answered. If you or @Leviathan don't understand the purpose of a movement, after watching ian abernathy's stuff, simply post here and I'm sure someone can help you by either knowing it or helping you figure it out.
     
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  8. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    It’s nothing at all like that, actually.
     
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  9. Buka

    Buka MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I can't begin to tell you how much I love this post. And how quickly I'm stealing every one of your great points. And I don't even practice kata.
     
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  10. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Lol, thanks, but I have a fairly comprehensive understanding of Shotokan kata application, that developed in parallel to Abernathy's work, not from it. I agree with much of his reasoning, but we differ on a few points.

    I lean more towards Vince Morris's technique.

    I think you may have misread my post.
     
  11. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Welcome to the forum. I hope you hang around for a good long time.

    I primarily study TKD. When I started in 1982, there was only a TKD school and a very small Shotokan school in my small town. I had friends at both schools and, starting around early red/brown belt we would regularly get together and spar and talk about technique differences. We practice Pyong Ahn forms and we were always surprised how similar they are to the Heian forms.
    Good times.
     
  12. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah i reread it and i think you're right. That's what happens when i post at 430am when i cant sleep
     
  13. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Just a small point but I do believe relevant, Iain's name is 'Abernethy'.
     
  14. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Y'know I've been spelling that wrong for years. Just realized it yesterday.
     
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  15. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    If it's any consolation you aren't the only one, many who post on here do, perhaps Abernethy isn't so common outside the UK. It's a Scottish surname.
     
  16. Leviathan

    Leviathan Yellow Belt

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    Hi,

    Thanks for the video. Interesting indeed but it triggers a few questions in my mind:

    - Are these shotokan katas? They don't seem familiar to me.

    - Did those MMA fighters learn those techniques from katas or is it just a coincidence that what they did in the ring was similar to a move in a given kata? Does it speak for the katas or for the guy who made the video? I wouldn't be surprised if you could make up a similar video MMA - folcloric dance.

    - if the purpose of katas was to mimick a fight as those shown in the video then shotokan training has gotten totally mad: shotokan is to full contact what a polar bear is to the desert. Shotokan kumites are light contact, shotokan is much more a gymnastic than a real martial art (said the founder of kyokushin). But well, maybe these are katas from full contact karate, not shotokan.
     
  17. Leviathan

    Leviathan Yellow Belt

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    Double post
     
  18. wab25

    wab25 Brown Belt

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    Much of what was shown in the video can be found in shotokan kata. I have posted this link before, but it is an excellent article on what is really in the karate katas.

    Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate
     
  19. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    It’s OK that you do not understand kata. Really, it is.
     
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  20. Star Dragon

    Star Dragon Orange Belt

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    It was a long time ago that I trained in Shotokan (after a preliminary phase of Kyokushinkai), my principal art now being Parker Kenpo. However, what I took away from Shotokan is an emphasis on power generation and on precision of movement. - I see so much sloppiness in Kenpo, it makes me heel-palm my own head!

    I am with you in regards to Hotton-sensei, his interpretation recaptures much of Karate's more internal aspects of the kind that can sometimes still be found in Okinawan styles, but that were generally lost once the art became a sport.

    Talking about the Shotokan kata, I recommend comparing them to their equivalents in other (especially in older) Shorin-ryu based styles. They still carry much useful information even in their modern version, if you understand how to read them - however, at the time I was involved with Shotokan, even the interpretations offered by JKA head instructors were mostly hogwash. Fortunately, things have changed a bit since then and you don't have to look very far nowadays for useful examples of proper bunkai.

    I particularly like what Mr. Gimberline makes out of the Shotokan forms.

     
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