Fancy Kicks

[A.R.K.]

Uh huh

And your firsthand, realworld applications would be....

Many of us have been in harm's way, seen the white elephant and been involved in realworld altercations. This is why we know that Hollywood and the street are two different animals. 'Pretty' doesn't cut it.

But I digress...what were your realworld examples of flashy kicks working against street thugs, violent felons......

:asian:

 

[Nightingale]

instead of kicking to the head, I'd rather kick to the knee and make damn sure he can't follow me.

The problem with teaching people high kicks is that often times its done in a self defense format rather than a purely sport format. You can't teach people that its acceptable to attempt to use kicks like this in the street. You're way too easy to take down. Its a pointless risk.

I see no harm in teaching people the kicks as "exercises to develop speed and timing" or "just because they look cool." However, they're not good for self defense. A streetfight is a down and dirty place where you want both feet on the ground.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Tigertron
I am reading a lot of crap in this thread.

If high kicks and flying kicks can be successfully used in the ring, against well trained, well experienced opponents who are definitely better at defending against such attacks, HOW THE HELL they can't be used on the street against Joe Budlight 6-pack?

If you can't kick to the head and take someone down, then just speak for yourself.

Well, the difference is because of the conditions.

In relatively "safe" conditions compared to a street fight, you have a lot more leniency to try moves that people aren't expecting. In a street fight... Another story. Fighting in the ring is different than fighting on the street and it always will be, pure and simple. Ring fighters can without a doubt defend themselves on the streets, but their tactical momentum will be a bit different, see what I'm getting at? Like running. Running for sport, and running to actually get away from something. The same thing, but a bit different.

 

[ob2c]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
To ob2c, no, I can't think of any other way to improve agility and timing. The jumping kicks also develop power. Look at how other athletes in different sports. They consist of ballet, plyometrics, power and Olympic lifting, tai chi (just the exercises), and guess what... A lot of hip movement.

MA, while I respect your opinion, and don't argue that fancy high kicks develope timeing and agility, I still have to disagree.

I study Tai Chi Chuan fa, and it does develope both. It also teaches me to only move my hips a lot when I want something else to move a lot. But aside from that, there are a lot of drills that teach power, agility and timeing in the things that matter- defending against attacks, bridging and entries, footwork, etc. Sparing, or doing techniques at street force and speed (but with control) also develope these. Why waste time training something you say (and I agree) is too dangerous and unreliable in a real fight?

I have no problem with those who do martial arts for sport, or who think they look cool, useing these kicks. But the question of whether they are practical is a resounding NO!

By the way, I didn't say they can't work. I work out regularly with a bunch of TKD folks (notorious kickers, the rotters!). I've taken enough boots to the head to develope a grudging respect for them. But, more often by far, they go down in flames when they try it.

 

[Zepp]

Ok, time for my 1.5 cents:

Holy crap! Someone actually used a jumping or spiinign kick in a street fight?! I just put that "Saved my life" choice on the poll as a joke! :rofl: Yari, just what exactly is a high mawashigeri?

As for the usefulness of jumping and/or spinning kicks, I agree with most of you that they are taught as a means of improving one's agility (coordination and balance included) and sense of timing. I also liked Kope's post. The word "art" was added to martial for a reason.

As far as using them in a tournament: I think of them as sucker kicks. If your timing is off, or your opponent sees it coming, you're the sucker.

In a real fight, I think you'd have to be pretty delusional to try jumping or spinning at all.

I think I need to add that this doesn't mean simply kicking to the head. We're talking about fancy kicks here: spinning hooks, jumping front kicks, tornado kicks, etc. Throwing a simple front kick or sidekick to the head is a great way to end a fight quickly if you've been trained to do it and your opponent isn't ready.

But in the interests of staying on topic, we're talking about the complex stuff. Some good posts so far- keep 'em comin'.

 

[Elfan]

In any given situation, look at what is useful, unuseful, and useless. Make the base of your art (ie what you practice the most) those things which you find most useful. In some situations, a jumping-spinning-outward-cresent kick may be useful. However, in most situations it probably wont be so allocate the time you work on them accordingly.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by ob2c
MA, while I respect your opinion, and don't argue that fancy high kicks develope timeing and agility, I still have to disagree.

I study Tai Chi Chuan fa, and it does develope both. It also teaches me to only move my hips a lot when I want something else to move a lot. But aside from that, there are a lot of drills that teach power, agility and timeing in the things that matter- defending against attacks, bridging and entries, footwork, etc. Sparing, or doing techniques at street force and speed (but with control) also develope these. Why waste time training something you say (and I agree) is too dangerous and unreliable in a real fight?

I have no problem with those who do martial arts for sport, or who think they look cool, useing these kicks. But the question of whether they are practical is a resounding NO!

By the way, I didn't say they can't work. I work out regularly with a bunch of TKD folks (notorious kickers, the rotters!). I've taken enough boots to the head to develope a grudging respect for them. But, more often by far, they go down in flames when they try it.

Why train in things that are dangerous? Because it helps you reach a newer level.

Your strength will improve by doing bodyweight exercises, but if you want to get stronger, faster, you have to hit the weights. Same with fighting speed. You can get faster by doing things at full speed, but sooner or later, you'll have to have some sort of plyometric program added if you want to be a bit faster. Boxers just don't practice at full speed to be able to punch faster and just do drills. They have a lot of scientific processes they go through, with just the right amount of rest and training for their individual bodies. Same thing.

Another example? You can gain power from bag training. But you'll have to supplement it with learning perfect technique, some strength training, speed training, and plyometric training again to achieve maximum power.

Another example? Jumping. NBA basketball players just don't jump as high as they can. They have resistance and power training to supplement it.

How do they relate to speed in real life? Doing a lot of high kicks makes you more proficient in high kicks. Being fast with high kicks means you are even faster with low kicks. Why the jumping around? That's obvious. If you find any way to improve running speed, jumping ability, and the other athletic qualities dealing with power or speed other than plyometric training, CNS training, strength and power training, etc., then I'm all ears. Again, we're just talking about the physical aspect of speed and power.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Zepp
Ok, time for my 1.5 cents:

Holy crap! Someone actually used a jumping or spiinign kick in a street fight?! I just put that "Saved my life" choice on the poll as a joke! :rofl: Yari, just what exactly is a high mawashigeri?

As for the usefulness of jumping and/or spinning kicks, I agree with most of you that they are taught as a means of improving one's agility (coordination and balance included) and sense of timing. I also liked Kope's post. The word "art" was added to martial for a reason.

As far as using them in a tournament: I think of them as sucker kicks. If your timing is off, or your opponent sees it coming, you're the sucker.

In a real fight, I think you'd have to be pretty delusional to try jumping or spinning at all.

I think I need to add that this doesn't mean simply kicking to the head. We're talking about fancy kicks here: spinning hooks, jumping front kicks, tornado kicks, etc. Throwing a simple front kick or sidekick to the head is a great way to end a fight quickly if you've been trained to do it and your opponent isn't ready.

But in the interests of staying on topic, we're talking about the complex stuff. Some good posts so far- keep 'em comin'.

Well, if you were fighting in 0 gravity, maybe those spining kicks will help :rofl:

 

[MartialArtist]

In the 1950's, Olympic lifters (Olympic lifts being the clean, snatch, etc.) were able to beat Olympic sprinters in the 30-50m? dash. The 1950's was before the time sprinters did not do any supplemental training... They just sprinted. Might have done a few things here and there, but nothing like today's sprinters. Nowadays, Olympic lifters will get killed by sprinters in a race of any distance, as the sprinters now do a lot of explosive training, strength and resistance training, and a whole arsenal of things to do.


drsquat.com - Read the articles on Olympic lifting


You don't get to be a sprinter by jogging around a track. You sprint. But to reach a higher level, you must add to it. You have to run at a short decline to develop your nervous system/muscle memory, box jump, depth jump, lunge jump, squat... You get the picture. To be more agile and faster, one must not only do the moves at full speed while mantaining flexibility and the other aspects of fitness, but you do have to jump around.

One thing sprinters do is jump, and lots of it. Jumping has nothing to do with sprinting directly, you can't win a race by jumping around. That's not the point. You can say it's dangerous (in terms of your results) to jump in a race, just as it's dangerous to try to do a lot of high kicks in a fight. But the sprinter and the fighter should know, and they are responsible for knowing it if their instructor tells them repeatedly, to not use high fancy kicks. Most of it is logic.

 

[lonekimono]

i'll add my 2 cents ok if you are standing at a bar and this person comes up and ( for what ever reason) he wants to punch you in the face, now mine you he's standing right next to you, i tell you it will be hard to kick this person anywhere ie: ax kick,front kick,
sidekick,WHY? because he's to close to you.
i'm not saying i don't like kicks, i think they have there place as to when to use a kick.
i never kick to the face it's useless if it's a street fight( real world)
the only way i would kick to the face is when the person is on his hands and knees, ED PARKER.:asian:

yours in kenpo

 

[ob2c]

MA, fair enough. I think we'll just have to leave it at a disagreement that isn't worth an argument. If you enjoy training it and it benifits you, which seems to be the case, then I say good on you. I prefer a more pragmatic approach. We do agree in the main area of concern. That is that they are dangerous to the kicker in a real fight. That, by the way, is what the TKD school I work out with teaches as well. They do the high stuff for tournaments and exhibitions. But they also teach a 'Freestyle TKD' which, at times, starts looking more like a predominantly hard Kenpo than TKD. Their problem is, being TKDers, they just can't resist an occasional purty high kick... .

 

[ob2c]

Originally posted by lonekimono
if you are standing at a bar and this person comes up and ( for what ever reason) he wants to punch you in the face, now mine you he's standing right next to you, i tell you it will be hard to kick this person anywhere ie: ax kick,front kick,
sidekick,WHY? because he's to close to you.

lonekimono, are you forgeting about kicks to his base? Knee strikes can be thought of as short kicks, or the first part of a kick. Scoop kicks to his groin. Shovel kicks. Heel hooks to his kidneys or, more likely, as a sweep. And a good kicker can deliver a full power side kick from so close in you wouldn't believe it. And in close kicks are hidden moves as well. Don't short your in close arsenal by discounting kicks. In close, AK is extremely effective with its' kicks.

 

[lonekimono]

well ob2c i know about the kicks you are talking about , but you have got to show me HOW you will do a kick to the midsection
while standing at a bar while other people are standing next to you? now i know you can kick to the leg but why?
this is KENPO and this is all i know kenpo is my MOTHER ART
for the last 38 years, but i still can learn from anyone.
we are all on the same path .


yours in kenpo:asian:

 

[moromoro]

i have seen and been involved in over 50 street fights and have never seen high kicks to the head or arms...... also even when sparring against taekwondo guys and kickboxers in a mma stting they have never kicked high but this is from my own personal experience


thanks

terry

 

[lonekimono]

way to go TERRY

yours in kenpo

 

[moromoro]

that was thanks (no thanks) to bouncing in my first 3 years of university

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by Zepp
Ok, time for my 1.5 cents:

Yari, just what exactly is a high mawashigeri?

Roundhouse kick would probably be the correct term. And I kicked my own headhight, which is 1.92 cm. He went rollong across the ground after that. I hope he ate soup for the next three months after that.


/Yari

 

[moromoro]

if you train correctly there should be no way he can get a head kick to land on ya

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
In the 1950's, Olympic lifters (Olympic lifts being the clean, snatch, etc.) were able to beat Olympic sprinters in the 30-50m? dash. The 1950's was before the time sprinters did not do any supplemental training... They just sprinted. Might have done a few things here and there, but nothing like today's sprinters. Nowadays, Olympic lifters will get killed by sprinters in a race of any distance, as the sprinters now do a lot of explosive training, strength and resistance training, and a whole arsenal of things to do.

Do you have any articles or vids on this? It sounds interesting.

 

[ob2c]

lonekimono, after 38 years in Kenpo, you should be showing me! Maybe I'm not understanding you here, but a couple of statements lead me to think that you are saying no kicks will work in close.

Originally posted by lonekimono
if you are standing at a bar and this person comes up and ( for what ever reason) he wants to punch you in the face, now mine you he's standing right next to you, i tell you it will be hard to kick this person anywhere.

now i know you can kick to the leg but why?

Am I misreading what you said? AK trains not only in close kicks, but leg checks as well as stances used as weapons. It's an awesome in close art, due in large part to its' lower body attacks. Are you saying you prefer these other attacks, or that kicks will not work in close?

As for side kicking the guy at the bar who's in your face, you should be able to position yourself at 45' to him even if you can't move back. I wouldn't stand nose to nose with anyone under those circumstances. If, say, his hands come up and you know it's on, make your block a simultaneous finger strike to his eyes. This should get his attention above your kick. (This is just an example. Point is to set him up.) As the hands go up, bring the lead knee to a high chamber. Then execute a thrusting side kick , pivoting the base foot and getting plenty of hip into it. Of course, you are going to anger a lot of people as he makes a large hole in the crowd. I'm not saying this is a good thing to do in this situation. I'm just answering your question- how would I sidekick someone in a crowded bar. A thrusting side kick can be delivered to the midsection at full extension and power from extremely close. The purpose is more to move him either out of your way or into something as it's more of a powerful push. I originally learned this from a couple of TKD guys who could put you through a wall with it if they wanted. But it is in Kenpo as well.