Extremely Frustrated

[CuongNhuka]

So who signs there rep as just a "+"? It's kinda weird.

 

[Ella]

AHAHA I got that too!

I think its like an A+ or something

 

[Marginal]

I'll do things like block, but not follow up with a strike. Or, I'll stop at one strike instead of continuing. Our style is based on quick, rapid succession of blows. I just.....brain fart completely, and it's killing me dammit!

Could just be how you're perceiving the idea of spontaniety. Doing something on reaction doesn't have to mean doing it without thinking. That's the ideal, but it usually takes time to build up that sort of reaction to the point where it becomes natural feeling. I'd say, do what you can, then even if you stop do more after that even if what you throw at 'em seems silly to you. Just get used to the idea of continuing your motion until you do it.

Also try not to mentally bookmark your perceived failures. It'll just slow you down further while you focus on not repeating a mistake rather than the actual technique you're trying to apply.

On top of that, watching videos on similar subjects (even MA movies, doesn't really matter as long as similar techniques are involved.) helps me get a better understanding of what's likely to move where and stuff like that.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Thanks so much for all the great replies. EVERYTHING we train in class has application, right down to the bow-in and warm ups. We do drills, but are not taught that attack X requires technique Y. I almost think that would be easier for me. When we train applying skills to self defense it is never "rehearsed" and it's the spontaneity that kills me.

They tell me, "just do anything", "don't think about it, just do", "it doesn't have to be perfect, an application used on the street is not necessarily going to come out exactly as practiced". But if I just do anything I'm ineffective. It's like, WTF was that???

I'll do things like block, but not follow up with a strike. Or, I'll stop at one strike instead of continuing. Our style is based on quick, rapid succession of blows. I just.....brain fart completely, and it's killing me dammit!

JT,

Lots of good advice and ways to try to address your concern.

Your comment about the female versus male aaproach is something you are seeing, so I will talk to that. Yes ther are many guys who have been in fights or sports that require them to have physical contact and with the contact they learn to adapt. i.e. football. The defense calls a play thinking how to address a possible Offense. The offense just so happens to be good against teh called defense, so on the fly each individual may have to adapt.

So yes it is possible that the guys in your class that have had physical training inthe past may seem to get it better than you, but that has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with them.

I know you have said to visualize some technique and go for it. I bet if these "guys" were asked they have a favorite move that they go to a lot. So you can just pick some technique yourself and try it. Now let us assume it was a good technique for theri move. You get to practice it and feel good. Now let us assume it was a poor technique for that specific move, you get to see why it was. Even work it a few times to understand why it was not the optimum or good move. Understand it and learn from it.

One can also make the first part of their move to block/pass/shift/move to make sure you are safe and it wsa done at real time speed, then slow it down to the speed you feel comfortable with and do the rest of the technique.

Now this part may seem real funny to some. While with a trusted partner, I clsoe my eyes so I can "FEEL" the technique as I do it. I know that with my eyes closed they could counter. I know that it is not real, but it happens to be something that helps me to visualize.

I wish you luck and good training. And Do not compare yourself to others who learn fast or easy. Many of those will give up after a point becuase it wa easy or they do not respect what they have learned. While those whohave taken baby steps the whole way or had to knock down the wall in front of them while others just seemed to step over or around it like there as no problem. Keep at it, and if you enjoy it, it will come. If it becomes too much work and frustration then you might not like it anymore and then one cannot relax and be centered or in the zone or what have you.

Best wishes

 

[Brian King]

“Now I've been training SPM for a year and same problem.”

I do not know what SPM is so the terms I use in this reply may not be appropriate but I will try to make them non art specific.

“It's even more frustrating because guys who have much less time in training than I do, don't have any problem with that cross over and it makes me feel like a "dumb girl".”

OT* this then is a great opportunity to also work on some important personal issues other than the original advice sought in the OP. Frankly these issues may be even more important in the long run and will definitely be more difficult to overcome.

*back onto topic

“They tell me, "just do anything", "don't think about it, just do", "it doesn't have to be perfect, an application used on the street is not necessarily going to come out exactly as practiced". But if I just do anything I'm ineffective. It's like, WTF was that???

I'll do things like block, but not follow up with a strike. Or, I'll stop at one strike instead of continuing. Our style is based on quick, rapid succession of blows. I just.....brain fart completely, and it's killing me dammit!”

This is a common problem for many people of all sexes. It is even more common for ‘experienced’ martial artists. Experience is relative of course.

Some people have a performance anxiety, a fear of failure that blocks them from trying, or even worse self-sabotages their efforts even while they try, reinforcing the anxiety. Often their opinion of themselves sets up this anxiety; you will hear things like “I have been training so long it (the solution/movement/technique) should have been obvious” or “how could I have missed/not seen/screwed that up?” They often kick themselves twice, once when screwing up and the second time by reacting to it in an attention seeking (even subconsciously) manner such as cursing or making a face, neither of which helps but instead points out their lack of recognizing that they are not perfect, that they are greedy and they have a very healthy dose of ego that demands instant gratification.

Some people have a problem of analyses paralyze-ation. They are so busy trying to do the perfect movement/technique/series of techniques that their mind gets stuck in the D part of the OODA loop. They are so busy Observing and Orientating and trying to get thru the Deciding moment, they get so paralyzed in that section trying to make a decision that they never get to the Acting part (which is the fun and most rewarding section). The more time spent in any one section sets up a cascading panic of failure and a feeling of having to rush to get thru the deciding method and the sense that the decision must be the absolute correct one, and that there is only time for one.

Some anticipate either the attack or their response to the attack, they anticipate their partner’s response to their response (chain) and when something other than what they were anticipating happens it throws them into confusion.

Some people store up so much tension (of all types not just physical but also tensions such as mental and spiritual and others) that it, the tension, adds resistance and blocks to their body awareness and movement skills adding to the difficulty, whatever it might be, that they are trying to overcome.

Some people forget to breathe or breathe incorrectly. They might wind up holding their breath sometimes holding it full, or perhaps holding it empty or somewhere in between. Others thru fear or greed inhale too little or too much air forcing them into a gasping method of breathing, draining their body and psyche the air needed to do the work properly.

These are just a few examples of sabotages that we allow ourselves to fall prey to. The solution of course is to discover yourself and to know yourself and do the work necessary to free yourself.

The above is all well and good, but as a sort of reward to those that may have read this far, here is a very simple technique to get thru any of the above and most other blocks to allow yourself to better work application and sparring drills.

You will need to trick your mind into being quiet, trick your body into working naturally and free. This is easy to do if you try. While doing the drill, focus your mind on something else. It could be movement, it could be watching the second hand on a clock for every second, it could be tension/relaxation management, and it could be focusing on posture or breathing. For example with breathing, when you start the drill start breathing, nice deep breathing in what ever breathing method your art of choice recommends (like breathing in thru the nose and out thru the mouth). Starts focusing on your breathing right away do not wait until your partner attacks, start focusing on your breathing the very first second as you step onto the floor. No matter what happens, no matter what attack your partner throws at you or you at them your entire mental focus should be on maintaining nice deep breaths from start to finish. Do not think about trying to do this technique or that technique, do not worry what attack your partner is going to use, do not worry about missing or failing, your only worry is breathing deeply and full in and out. Let the/your ‘fighting part’ happen by its own veracity and it will if you can learn to trust it. To recap, you still do the work, the defending that your art does but rather than thinking about it, grading yourself worrying success or failure, force yourself to instead focus and think about and to be totally aware of your breathing before, during and after the drill. If you have a problem maintaining this focus ask your partner to slow down perhaps even way down and to make each attack separate (think sort of one/three step drills rather than continuous sparring when first trying this) Giving your mind something to occupy itself frees up the rest. It feels like the work becomes automatic sub conscious while the breathing is almost mechanical which is opposite of how most people work. Eventually both become automatic doing what is needed when needed. Forced focus is sort of like a reset switch that temporarily short circuits many of the other blocks.

Good luck and enjoy yourself
Brian King

 

[Jade Tigress]

My god you guys! Everyone has so many excellent takes on this and I can now see what some of my issues are that is making this difficult for me. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am really going to work on this, hopefully I will be able to overcome the mental block. I'm sure I will continue to be frustrated in this area, but if I can start making even a little bit of progress I will be encouraged.

Any more insight on this is greatly appreciated. :asian:

 

[kidswarrior]

Pam, I got to this party late, but hate to see you in turmoil like this, so am going to jump in. Yes, there are many, many good suggestions here. It would be worth culling the thread to pull out what you think will work for you.

But. We all learn differently, and I notice many posters giving advice based on what works for them or someone they've known--and that may or may not work for you.

So, here's what I'd suggest. Pick one technique. Yes, I know there are so many it's hard to pick just one. But that may be part of the problem. You can't do all of it at once, so don't let the number of possibilities paralyze you (the old paralysis by analysis ). Instead, this is the time to just choose one at a time, but use that technique regardless of the type of attack. You must have a 'good' partner act as attacker, someone you trust. Now here's the key: don't put any restrictions on their attack, other than to mix it up--maybe they'll use a high right punch, maybe a low line kick the next time, maybe a grab the third, etc. You just do the technique you've intentionally chosen. Obviously it'll sometimes fail to work, and sometimes be downright comical as you move right into their attack. But that's part of learning and embedding in memory when that technique does and doesn't work--there's no teacher like experience, especially if you add a little pain. :ultracool The times I've broken something due to carelessness, laziness, or fatigue, are lessons that I've learned for life. Now, you don't want to go so fast or hard that that happens, but you get the idea. Over time, using this with all your techniques, you'll find the half-dozen or so that will be 'yours'--that you know will always work for you, with your mindset, body type, etc. But that takes a few years of practice, so no hurry. Just be encouraged that the time is coming when you'll have that confidence.

If you do try this, please let me know how it works. I'm always trying to get better as an instructor, and have used this in line drills and partner work, to very good effect--so far. Oh, and DON'T COMPARE YOURSELF TO ANYONE ELSE! Chances are, you won't even know them five years from now. Who cares what they think or how 'good' they look. Think how good you'll look after a few months of this, when they're watching you.

 

[jks9199]

It sounds like part of what's happening is you're getting stuck after the initial response.

First -- start practicing the follow up, every time. Do your blocking exercise, and add a punch or kick. When you practice a form -- never stop on the block; carry over to the strike before you stop.

Then -- when you're sparring or practicing spontaneous responses, select one response sequence. Use that response, and that response only. For example, use a forward step, block, and strike. And realize that you're going to get hit some, until you start to get it.

 

[still learning]

Hello, They say it takes about 2,000-3,000 or more,repetitions of the same techniques before it becomes a part of the sub-consious mind, (automatic thinking).

Practicing in class is one thing, under the adrenline (real situtions), stress, is another sitution. (everyone should try to train under real conditions)..when possible.

Goal is to react without thinking, one needs to be more relax, let your training react by it self (easier said: then to do it!).

They say " best fighters use about 3-4 techniques that works for them."
( Jabs, cross punch, straight kicks, elbows, etc).

Keep it simple ( your fighing attacks/defense). In a real fight your mind becomes more narrow thinking- SURVIVAL!

Anybody (white belts too) knows how to fight back....by throwing punches......it takes time to learn the reaction for proper techniques to kick in.

KEEP IT SIMPLE!

Don't focus on your frustrations...look at your strong points! Build on that!

The best martial artist train harder than anyone else....but they know they can still get better and better (remember most people cannot defend against a false crack!) ..especially when they are not looking!

Enjoy your progess by looking back when you first started....." A tree started growing from one seed....it takes long time before they reach fullness- and yet they still can grow more..."

Your tree (yourself) may grow different from other trees....create your own tree!

In Hawaii ? Coconut trees are all around us......NUTS ...become the coconut! ...............Aloha

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Well, there's not much I can add that most everyone else hasn't touched upon already, but it does sound like you have the same problem I did when I first started out--I got to thinking about what to do, to the point I tried thinking too much, hence in circles. Wanted to make sure I always did the best possible response for each situation. I wanted to KNOW everything before I TRIED anything.

But it's like one of my heroes once said, "A good plan, now, beats a perfect plan next week". Make it simple: Okay, you just blocked/parried/checked/whatever. Where does it put you? let's say off to one side. If so, where are you in relation to the targets presented? are you stood straight up, or are you crouched somewhat low/they're just insanely tall?

If the former, you're probably within arm's reach of any target from the ribs on up to the throat/neck/eyes/head where all the high-value targets are. Just pick one. Any one, and MEAN it.

Grab the head with one hand, the jaw with the other, crank him down by his neck.
Do, or simulate, an eye gouge and escape. Same with a throat target.
Rake a roundhouse elbow across the ribs. then put yourself out of range.

If the latter, well, your heads might not be on an equal level, but your feet are all standing on the same ground, aren't they? Yes they are.

Something as simple as a single/double leg tackle, any number of kicks or leg-to-leg sweeps could be used here, play with the ones you can make work, pick one. and MEAN it.

Those are just simple, one step examples. Once you have something like those down, and are used to following through, *then* think about chaining moves together off them. *Then* you can start devoting time to chaining combos together but break out of the hesitation first.

I'm not a Kenpo student, but I find a quote I've heard attributed to Ed Parker very true:

"I'd rather have ten techniques I can fight with, than a hundred techniques that fight me".

You're much better than you think, you just don't know it yet.

 

[seasoned]

Personally specking I found it very hard to match my mind set with the techniques I was learning at the time. I felt that as long as I was doing the techniques solo I could demonstrate that killer instinct that I feel is so vital to Martial Arts. Alone I was a force of one, but with a partner I just could not bring myself to want to hurt anyone. Even in sparring if I felt threatened or got hurt I could not retaliate appropriately. It wasn’t until I was able to play a mind game with myself that my training started to take a turn. I needed a reason to fight or strike at someone other then just getting a point. The game I played was a mind conditioning one where I made it a point when I stepped onto the DoJo floor someone had to die, them or me. I made it a personal thing where that person was a threat not only to me but to everything that I held dear to my heart. Now I am not talking about a bad attitude at all, but what I am saying is the DoJo became very serious to me. I pictured in my mind that any partner I had on any given day was a DoJo comrade until we bowed in and then it was life or death. At that moment that particular person was trying to hurt my family and I was the only one that stood between them and my loved ones. With this type of attitude that I was trying to cultivate it became very apparent to any partner that they were in for a ruff time because it was not a game to me. You never want to react with anger or fear but with a focused mind, and with a purpose. The mind set you have in the DoJo should be the same mind set you will defend yourself with. Think about it, if I have one mind set in the DoJo and another in self defense how can I distinguish one from the other. In self defense the bow is done in my mind but the feeling is the same, it is them or me. Nothing done in anger nothing done in fear but when you bow whether in mind or body someone has to die.

 

[qi-tah]

Thanks so much for all the great replies. EVERYTHING we train in class has application, right down to the bow-in and warm ups. We do drills, but are not taught that attack X requires technique Y. I almost think that would be easier for me. When we train applying skills to self defense it is never "rehearsed" and it's the spontaneity that kills me.

They tell me, "just do anything", "don't think about it, just do", "it doesn't have to be perfect, an application used on the street is not necessarily going to come out exactly as practiced". But if I just do anything I'm ineffective. It's like, WTF was that???

I'll do things like block, but not follow up with a strike. Or, I'll stop at one strike instead of continuing. Our style is based on quick, rapid succession of blows. I just.....brain fart completely, and it's killing me dammit!

Hey, but you blocked, right? Or you got one strike in... so yr not really "freezing", it's more that you aren't putting combinations together. I have ongoing problems with combos too... i feel that mentally i'm not quick enough to tie up someone who is moving about in a sparring situation. Defend all day long, sure, but inflicting damage is another thing. I found a few things tho that helped me to work on this...

1) Solo drill a limited amount of openings first. (Block to closed side, block to open side is pretty much it for me) Even if all you can do is block and move off line, hey, you aren't being hit!

2) Rehearse a few (about 4-5) variations of combinations to follow up from yr opening. Basic strikes, jab/cross, high/low/knee, cover/palm/elbow etc. Drill these on the bag, shadowbox etc. I like walking and drilling them without stopping my forward movement - making movements smaller and smaller if in public, even to the point where the movement is mainly a shift of weight in yr hips and shoulders or a slight shift of footwork etc. It's amazing how much you can do without using yr arms or being obvious. Try to aim for fluidity and speed rather than power. You can always expand the movements once yr walking alone again.

3) When it comes to sparring, resign yrself to sparring ugly. It just about always looks like a dog's breakfast, no matter who you are!

If you can't get yr combos off due to somthing weird happening, disengage, control yr distance and try again. If you get tied up then go for the nearest soft target, even if it means taking a hit. Getting hit sucks, but it's gonna happen to us all sometime.

4) Review what worked or didn't after you spar. Ask for yr sparring partners feedback. If something isn't working, think about how you can change it to work better for you.

5) Treat it all like the giant laugh that it is!

It's not so serious... it's a game. Practice and rehearse in earnest, then play when sparring. Look at cats playing... they look dopey sometimes too, but the skills they are honing are serious!

Have fun!

 

[Cirdan]

Do not pick a technique. Pick a target!

 

[Last Fearner]

Hi Jade,

While you have received many good insights here, I'm going to approach this a little differently. Some have replied by discussing "symptoms" of the problem. Others have identified parts of the problem, and many have given you possible solutions.

I want you to find out exactly what the problem is (not the symptoms, but the actual problem), and what is the cause of the problem. First, I want you to consider your type of personality, and how your brain works (everyone's brain functions differently). You can overcome this challenge in your training; we just need to know what path within your brain to take.

Tell me this, do you find that you are a perfectionist? In other areas of life, do you take a long time to decide on something, then are you very set in your ways - - sticking to your decisions, or are you easily swayed to change your mind? The answers to questions like this will help to identify how you think, and why your brain functions the way it does.

In order to gain the skills you are looking for, let's break the learning process down into three parts.

1. Learning the technique.
2. Improving your reflexive action.
3. Being able to respond to changing conditions.

First you have to be able to do each individual task (skill or technique), and do it well. This is the area where others have suggested starting slow, repeating thousands of times, and gaining the muscle memory that is required to do the technique quickly, without hesitation, and do it correctly.

They tell me, "just do anything", "don't think about it, just do", "it doesn't have to be perfect, an application used on the street is not necessarily going to come out exactly as practiced".

I am going to give you an analogy here. Some people might tell you "not to think about it - just move fast, react and do anything that comes to mind." This is good training, but it assumes that you have accomplished the first stage of learning the technique thoroughly. If someone were take you to an airport runway, and say, "go jump in the cockpit of that plane and take off" what do you think would happen? They say, "don't think about it, just react and do it quickly." You might be able to scramble and get into the cockpit fast, but if you don't know how to work the controls, you will never get that plane off the ground, or keep it in the air for long.

In your first post, you said this,

"I can learn the forms, learn the techniques, etc., BUT when it comes down to applying the techniques off the cuff in self defense situations,"

This would deal with the third stage of being able to respond to changing conditions, but what you said in your second post gave me a little more insight beyond "symptoms" to more of the actual problem.

"EVERYTHING we train in class has application, right down to the bow-in and warm ups. We do drills, but are not taught that attack X requires technique Y. I almost think that would be easier for me. When we train applying skills to self defense it is never "rehearsed" and it's the spontaneity that kills me."

I don't want to judge your instructor's approach, but this could be an error in teaching. Not everyone picks up on "spontaneity" as easily as others, and everyone needs to learn the technique first, before it can be done quickly. To simply drop the "rehearsed" part of training because real-life fights are not performed that way, is a mistake some inexperienced instructors make. They are trying to 'jump ahead' to an area of their own training and skill where they think students should be. They forget that either this is not how they got there, or if they did, others might not be able to follow their same path to rapid success. A teacher must learn to teach all students of all learning abilities.

For the first stage of training (learning techniques), you divide your learning process into three parts. The first part is learning how to do the move. The second part is repeating the move slowly to gain brain to muscle memory. The third part is rapid execution. Gradually increase the speed of that one technique until you are forcing your brain to do it without thinking. It becomes a reflex. If you fumble a bit here, don't worry. You can slow it down for a few reps, but go right back to increasing the speed so that you get practice doing it fast. This could take several days or weeks on one technique.

The second stage of your training is improving your reflexive action. It is important to understand here, that you are not trying multiple options with decisions to be made at this point. This is simply, "I know what is coming, I know what I am going to do in response," now do it as soon as you receive the visual cue to move. It is like a simple test of reflex timing where you watch a light bulb. When the bulb lights up, you quickly hit a buzzer button with your hand. You are trying to reduce the amount of reaction time it takes between the visual cue (or audio, in some cases) and the moment your hand reaches the buzzer.

I'll do things like block, but not follow up with a strike. Or, I'll stop at one strike instead of continuing.

Here is where you move stage two, into a flow of combinations. Pick an attack for your partner to use (IE: middle punch, front kick, grab your wrist or lapel, etc) Use just that one attack for a while then move on to another later. Now choose just one block or initial defense you are going to use. Have your partner repeat the attack several times, first slow - then picking up speed. Do the same initial block or defense that you have chosen, over and over again.

Once you can do that well at fast speed, add a second follow up technique. Repeat the two slowly at first, then pick up speed until you flow quickly from your initial defense to the first counter move without hesitation, AND it works on your opponent. After that, keep adding a third, then a fourth follow up attack. Do each step slowly, then faster until it flows before adding another counter-attack.

Once you feel comfortable with a particular sequence of defense combinations to your opponent's attack, keep the same attack, but change your defense. Start all over with just the initial response, then add one follow up technique at a time. Finally, you can move on to changing your opponent's attack to something different, and then begin the process all over again with this new attack.

when it comes down to applying the techniques off the cuff in self defense situations, I just can't do it! Total brain freeze, hesitation, I just can't make the cross-over in my brain! :wah:


How, how, how do I get past this hurdle???

Here's how you get past this hurdle. Once you have developed a solid base of information in your brain, learned several options and how to make them work effectively, and gained brain to muscle memory, speed, and reflex of individual techniques and combinations, you are ready to start the transition to spontaneity and improvisational reactions.

An analogy for this stage is like the game of "Whack-a-gopher" (I hope you have seen this arcade game before). Here, little gopher heads pop up out of holes, and you have to whack them back down with a mallet. Often times, players react too slow, get behind the pace, and are whacking empty holes while the next gopher is popping up some place else. This is where quick reflexes mesh with multiple choices.

Some will advocate, in self defense, to train in only a few choices so as not to slow down the decision making process. This is true for those who are not trained properly, but the human brain (even yours) is capable of storing thousands of responses, and recalling them quickly to react to any situation. It is a matter of "additional training" specifically designed to promote quick decision making, and eliminate second guessing.

Considering the gopher game, if you only had two holes with the option of a gopher popping up out of one of the two, it would be relatively easy to react and hit the right one in time. With practice, that would become easier. Then, you add a third hole and one more gopher (or one more option). It might be a little difficult at first, but again, with practice it would become easy.

The idea in this third stage of your training, is to start with only two options, and react quickly to whichever one comes up. You can begin by using the same initial defensive action for one attack, and a second action for the other attack. Then add one counter to each initial response (much like you did in stage two). Whichever of the two attacks your opponent chooses to launch, you respond with the one appropriate defense and one counter attack. After that becomes smooth, add a third option to your opponent's list of possible attacks. Try to respond with just one defense, then one defense and one counter to each attack that comes up. As time goes on (weeks, months) your opponent can add four, five or more attacks until you can respond to virtually anything they throw at you.

It is a step-by-step process that takes time, but the important thing is start at the first step (first stage of learning and repeating the technique), then progress gradually through each and every stage until you can do that stage effectively, and without hesitation. You will rapidly see your own progress, and others will be impressed.

I hope this helps. If you care to PM me for additional explanation, feel free to do so.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[HG1]

EDIT BUT when it comes down to applying the techniques off the cuff in self defense situations, I just can't do it! Total brain freeze, hesitation, I just can't make the cross-over in my brain! :wah:

It's even more frustrating because guys who have much less time in training than I do, don't have any problem with that cross over and it makes me feel like a "dumb girl". No one in class makes me feel that way. It's how I make me feel. I've been told to visualize, to continue practicing, that SPM is a difficult style to learn. I just feel like I will never get it.

How, how, how do I get past this hurdle???

Jade Tigress -
The path of CMA's isn't always a straight line so being frustrated is just part of the learning process. At times it seems like all you do is struggle to bust through one training plateau after another. Don't let it beat you.

Picking a tactic from the running dialog in your head is too slow. When faced with an agressive flurry or multi-level combo your brain has too much to do in too short of time & gets overwhelmed then shuts down.

I'm not that familar with SPM but doesn't it have chi sao sensitivity exercises? That might be a good place to start. Work your attacks/counter attacks by sensing & feeling your opponent.

There is some excellent responses from other MTers! :asian:

 

[Steel Tiger]

I have seen a number of people suffer from this frustration. LF is right it is about a connection between mind and muscle.

Some people will say it is best to focus on a small number of techniques but I, personally, know a disturbing number and don't have this problem, which leads me to believe it is not a complication brought about by knowing too many techniques.

Other people will say you should not think about what you are doing, just do it. I agree with this to an extent. I would say don't over-think what you are doing, it will paralyze you with choices, and don't pick apart the techniques, that just stops you cold.

Your new art, SPM, is a good one but it is complex. As a way to practice I would suggest simple spontaneous training. Have an opponent make an attack and then defend and counterattack with whatever. Afterward, you can analyze what happened with your training partner. The techniques may not be perfect but as the training progesses they will become more fluid.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

"Knowing" a large number of techniques is vastly different from being able to apply a large number of them. When you look at actual fighting you will find that even experienced martial artists fall back to a relatively few techniques.

 

[Steel Tiger]

"Knowing" a large number of techniques is vastly different from being able to apply a large number of them. When you look at actual fighting you will find that even experienced martial artists fall back to a relatively few techniques.

This is very true, but I think that some people are daunted by shear numbers when they look to apply techniques. That is part of what I would call over-thinking. As you say the experienced martial artist maintains an intimate knowledge of a prefered core of techniques.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Hi Jade,

While you have received many good insights here, I'm going to approach this a little differently. Some have replied by discussing "symptoms" of the problem. Others have identified parts of the problem, and many have given you possible solutions.

I want you to find out exactly what the problem is (not the symptoms, but the actual problem), and what is the cause of the problem. First, I want you to consider your type of personality, and how your brain works (everyone's brain functions differently). You can overcome this challenge in your training; we just need to know what path within your brain to take.

Tell me this, do you find that you are a perfectionist? In other areas of life, do you take a long time to decide on something, then are you very set in your ways - - sticking to your decisions, or are you easily swayed to change your mind? The answers to questions like this will help to identify how you think, and why your brain functions the way it does.

Thank you, and yes, I am a perfectionist, and I do take a long time to decided on things in other areas of my life. Once I do make a decision though, I am not easily swayed, I stick to my choice.

In order to gain the skills you are looking for, let's break the learning process down into three parts.

1. Learning the technique.
2. Improving your reflexive action.
3. Being able to respond to changing conditions.

First you have to be able to do each individual task (skill or technique), and do it well. This is the area where others have suggested starting slow, repeating thousands of times, and gaining the muscle memory that is required to do the technique quickly, without hesitation, and do it correctly.

Yes, that is what our drills are for...muscle memory. Our class format rarely varies, and we don't do self defense exercises every class.

I am going to give you an analogy here. Some people might tell you "not to think about it - just move fast, react and do anything that comes to mind." This is good training, but it assumes that you have accomplished the first stage of learning the technique thoroughly. If someone were take you to an airport runway, and say, "go jump in the cockpit of that plane and take off" what do you think would happen? They say, "don't think about it, just react and do it quickly." You might be able to scramble and get into the cockpit fast, but if you don't know how to work the controls, you will never get that plane off the ground, or keep it in the air for long.

In your first post, you said this,

"I can learn the forms, learn the techniques, etc., BUT when it comes down to applying the techniques off the cuff in self defense situations,"

This would deal with the third stage of being able to respond to changing conditions, but what you said in your second post gave me a little more insight beyond "symptoms" to more of the actual problem.

"EVERYTHING we train in class has application, right down to the bow-in and warm ups. We do drills, but are not taught that attack X requires technique Y. I almost think that would be easier for me. When we train applying skills to self defense it is never "rehearsed" and it's the spontaneity that kills me."

I don't want to judge your instructor's approach, but this could be an error in teaching. Not everyone picks up on "spontaneity" as easily as others, and everyone needs to learn the technique first, before it can be done quickly. To simply drop the "rehearsed" part of training because real-life fights are not performed that way, is a mistake some inexperienced instructors make. They are trying to 'jump ahead' to an area of their own training and skill where they think students should be. They forget that either this is not how they got there, or if they did, others might not be able to follow their same path to rapid success. A teacher must learn to teach all students of all learning abilities.

Well, the thing about everything we do in class has application is that we are training self defense in all the moves we do. I am shown how every single thing applies to self defense. We do drill after drill after drill, why can't I pull out a technique from our drills, or warm-ups, or whatever? It's the same strike. My instructors have been teaching for many, many years, and like I said, students with less time in are *getting* this. It's like everything I learned so far flies out the window.

For the first stage of training (learning techniques), you divide your learning process into three parts. The first part is learning how to do the move. The second part is repeating the move slowly to gain brain to muscle memory. The third part is rapid execution. Gradually increase the speed of that one technique until you are forcing your brain to do it without thinking. It becomes a reflex. If you fumble a bit here, don't worry. You can slow it down for a few reps, but go right back to increasing the speed so that you get practice doing it fast. This could take several days or weeks on one technique.

The second stage of your training is improving your reflexive action. It is important to understand here, that you are not trying multiple options with decisions to be made at this point. This is simply, "I know what is coming, I know what I am going to do in response," now do it as soon as you receive the visual cue to move. It is like a simple test of reflex timing where you watch a light bulb. When the bulb lights up, you quickly hit a buzzer button with your hand. You are trying to reduce the amount of reaction time it takes between the visual cue (or audio, in some cases) and the moment your hand reaches the buzzer.



Here is where you move stage two, into a flow of combinations. Pick an attack for your partner to use (IE: middle punch, front kick, grab your wrist or lapel, etc) Use just that one attack for a while then move on to another later. Now choose just one block or initial defense you are going to use. Have your partner repeat the attack several times, first slow - then picking up speed. Do the same initial block or defense that you have chosen, over and over again.

Once you can do that well at fast speed, add a second follow up technique. Repeat the two slowly at first, then pick up speed until you flow quickly from your initial defense to the first counter move without hesitation, AND it works on your opponent. After that, keep adding a third, then a fourth follow up attack. Do each step slowly, then faster until it flows before adding another counter-attack.

Once you feel comfortable with a particular sequence of defense combinations to your opponent's attack, keep the same attack, but change your defense. Start all over with just the initial response, then add one follow up technique at a time. Finally, you can move on to changing your opponent's attack to something different, and then begin the process all over again with this new attack.

Very good ideas. Thanks.

Here's how you get past this hurdle. Once you have developed a solid base of information in your brain, learned several options and how to make them work effectively, and gained brain to muscle memory, speed, and reflex of individual techniques and combinations, you are ready to start the transition to spontaneity and improvisational reactions.

An analogy for this stage is like the game of "Whack-a-gopher" (I hope you have seen this arcade game before). Here, little gopher heads pop up out of holes, and you have to whack them back down with a mallet. Often times, players react too slow, get behind the pace, and are whacking empty holes while the next gopher is popping up some place else. This is where quick reflexes mesh with multiple choices.

Some will advocate, in self defense, to train in only a few choices so as not to slow down the decision making process. This is true for those who are not trained properly, but the human brain (even yours) is capable of storing thousands of responses, and recalling them quickly to react to any situation. It is a matter of "additional training" specifically designed to promote quick decision making, and eliminate second guessing.

Considering the gopher game, if you only had two holes with the option of a gopher popping up out of one of the two, it would be relatively easy to react and hit the right one in time. With practice, that would become easier. Then, you add a third hole and one more gopher (or one more option). It might be a little difficult at first, but again, with practice it would become easy.

Excellent analogy. I can relate.

The idea in this third stage of your training, is to start with only two options, and react quickly to whichever one comes up. You can begin by using the same initial defensive action for one attack, and a second action for the other attack. Then add one counter to each initial response (much like you did in stage two). Whichever of the two attacks your opponent chooses to launch, you respond with the one appropriate defense and one counter attack. After that becomes smooth, add a third option to your opponent's list of possible attacks. Try to respond with just one defense, then one defense and one counter to each attack that comes up. As time goes on (weeks, months) your opponent can add four, five or more attacks until you can respond to virtually anything they throw at you.

It is a step-by-step process that takes time, but the important thing is start at the first step (first stage of learning and repeating the technique), then progress gradually through each and every stage until you can do that stage effectively, and without hesitation. You will rapidly see your own progress, and others will be impressed.

I hope this helps. If you care to PM me for additional explanation, feel free to do so.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

It does help, and I appreciate it very much. :asian:

Jade Tigress -

I'm not that familar with SPM but doesn't it have chi sao sensitivity exercises? That might be a good place to start. Work your attacks/counter attacks by sensing & feeling your opponent.

Yes, we do, and I am my training at this rank is taking a more focused approach on that. I love the chi sao drills.

Funny story, my boss and I were on lunch break at a burger place. (My boss is also a personal friend so the relationship is a bit different. We hang out outside of work. He was my friend first and then gave me a job.) So anyway, we're standing in line to place our order and he starts giving me ****...kind of getting in my face with his hand to bug me while I was trying to see what I wanted to order. I wasn't paying attention to him, I was looking at the menu and just put my arm up, stuck to him, and kept him away from my face as he kept trying to move around it. I didn't even realize what I was doing until he said, "Stop pulling that kung fu stuff on me." Then it hit me, what I was doing.

I have seen a number of people suffer from this frustration. LF is right it is about a connection between mind and muscle.

Some people will say it is best to focus on a small number of techniques but I, personally, know a disturbing number and don't have this problem, which leads me to believe it is not a complication brought about by knowing too many techniques.

Other people will say you should not think about what you are doing, just do it. I agree with this to an extent. I would say don't over-think what you are doing, it will paralyze you with choices, and don't pick apart the techniques, that just stops you cold.

Your new art, SPM, is a good one but it is complex. As a way to practice I would suggest simple spontaneous training. Have an opponent make an attack and then defend and counterattack with whatever. Afterward, you can analyze what happened with your training partner. The techniques may not be perfect but as the training progesses they will become more fluid.

Glad to know I'm not alone! lol
Thanks for your input. :asian:

 

[kidswarrior]

Funny story, my boss and I were on lunch break at a burger place. (My boss is also a personal friend so the relationship is a bit different. We hang out outside of work. He was my friend first and then gave me a job.) So anyway, we're standing in line to place our order and he starts giving me ****...kind of getting in my face with his hand to bug me while I was trying to see what I wanted to order. I wasn't paying attention to him, I was looking at the menu and just put my arm up, stuck to him, and kept him away from my face as he kept trying to move around it. I didn't even realize what I was doing until he said, "Stop pulling that kung fu stuff on me." Then it hit me, what I was doing.

So it is sticking (pardon the pun), even though you aren't feeling the progress.

Also, I have to say that after years of MAs, when doing a 'live' simulation, my response almost never looks like any preset technique. It's just some ugly combination of things I've learned and practiced hundreds (thousands?) of times, depending on what the situation calls for, what he gives me, and how I can best attack the attack. When the attack is neutralized, I stop, even though a canned technique may call for continuing on for several more strikes or whatever. It sounds like you're pretty close to doing this also. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Maybe just really high expectations of yourself...?