Explaining Kata/Forms to Those Who Don't Do Them

[JowGaWolf]

Let's look at how some traditional form was modified. The following Lien Bu Chuan was used as the basic training form for the Central Guoshu Institute 中央国术馆 in China back in 1928.

This is the original form. Please notice that at 0.35 and 0.36, there are 2 "double palms strike" back to back. When this form was passed down to the Chin Woo system, it was kept as the original form. Nothing was changed.

This is the form that was modified by my teacher's tacher GM Han Ching-Tan. Please notice that at 0.30, the 2nd "double palms strike" has been changed into a back reverse punch. The reason that GM Han did that was because he believed the "back reverse punch" should be part of the beginner level training. Since Lien Bu Chuan was supposed to be a southern CMA for, if it is used as the basic training form for northern CMA system, the "back reverse punch" is a must.

Here is my question is, "If your teacher's teacher was allowed to change the form, why can't you?" Will you be someone's teacher's teacher one day?

I'll provide an example of why only the teacher or someone who has a deep understanding of the forms should change the forms. The Double spear hand strike downward 0:17 is actually part of a technique that is used to prevent a takedown but it's not complete. It's actually missing the piece that deals with the takedown. Assuming that the student didn't forget the beginning of the form. My only assumption is that someone changed the form and cut the original form off at the wrong place. Instead of making changes before or after a complete technique someone chopped the technique in half, resulting in a useless and incomplete technique being in the form. Had the Sifu (I'm assuming the person who made the form is a Sifu) had more understanding about the techniques in the original form then he wouldn't have cut the technique in half.

There is also another possibility that the student is doing the form wrong because there is another similar technique that doesn't use the spear hand.
If that's the case then it's an advanced technique thrown in the beginners form. Sei Ping is usually the beginner's form for many schools. But they don't look like the Sei Ping in the video. This video looks like someone took the Jow Ga forms Small Tiger, Flower Fist, Sei Ping, and 3 other advanced forms to make this one. Basically they butchered the forms. There are advance techniques in there that are way beyond him some are beyond me.

Changing and removing a form before understanding all that is in it, may make things worse and not better.

I believe this is a rip off of various forms including Jow Ga Sei Ping. I think he had the same assumption that he could make his own forms. It didn't make it better it made it worse.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What if a move in your form doesn't make any sense? In the following clip, both of his palms are facing down while his arms are moving side way. No matter how hard that I may try, I can't figure out any meaningful application for it.

In the following clip, it's quite clear that he is using both hands to pull his opponent's arm. So if your teacher taught you the above way while someone told you the following way, will you change that move in your form?

I have addressed this issue to a Taiji instructor many years ago. After that guy's Taiji teacher passed away, he finally made his change.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What if a move in your form doesn't make any sense? In the following clip, both of his palms are facing down while his arms are moving side way. No matter how hard that I may try, I can't figure out any meaningful application for it.

The only thing I do know is that motion in the Tai Chi I practice is a throw. The same movement may have multiple applications, and the throw is the only one I know for that one. Think of it as a redirecting throw and not a pick up throw.

I'm not sure myself. It may be an application where someone grabs both of his arms and he pulls that way to make it harder for the person holding on his arms to resist. In the video below it looks like that is what is happening because after that move there is an elbow to the body. see 2:01. My guess is that the motion pulls the person into you and you snap back with an elbow. I'm thinking when you pull with a rotation like that it may encourage the person to let go and to grab your body, and while in the process of trying to grab the body they are being struck with an elbow. If I pushed someone away, they grab my arms to prevent going backwards so I pull them in and strike them with an elbow. Give it a try and see if it works.

 

[Buka]

This is a pretty cool thread.

 

[Human Makiwara]

Kata shows you the hill, Bunkai is the climb to the top. All the techniques are in kata but until you apply them you will never fully understand what they do or why. Once you start to apply you will find that there are MANY different applications for a single technique. It's now up to you, your instructor and your partners to "make it real" or just walk around kicking and punching 50 invisible men.

 

[Tez3]

This is a pretty cool thread.

Drifting a bit though.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I'll provide an example of why only the teacher or someone who has a deep understanding of the forms should change the forms. The Double spear hand strike downward 0:17 is actually part of a technique that is used to prevent a takedown but it's not complete. It's actually missing the piece that deals with the takedown. Assuming that the student didn't forget the beginning of the form. My only assumption is that someone changed the form and cut the original form off at the wrong place. Instead of making changes before or after a complete technique someone chopped the technique in half, resulting in a useless and incomplete technique being in the form

I can see two reasons for the partial move.
1. this could be why some claim there are hidden techniques. The move is only half there and without understanding of the whole move a person dose know it's true meaning thus only those that have been taught at a certain level may understand the move
2. some forms are changed slightly when shown to "outsiders' so that if they are copied they are done incorrectly

 

[Buka]

Drifting a bit though.

Yes, maybe it's drifting. But the thread title speaks to me, personally, because I do not do forms.

I'm friends with some high ranking folks in various Traditional Martial Arts. We were all pups together.
I paraphrase, but this is what they always say to me about Kata. "A style/system that has Kata - Kata has to be trained all the time, constantly." And I know they are correct. (I mean, duh)
When I ask them about a style, like mine, that doesn't include kata, they always say, "If a style doesn't have Kata then it would be pretty damn silly to practice Kata, wouldn't it?"

I used to be a judge of Kata at tournaments throughout the ninteen-eighties. Always in the Black belt division. (I wouldn't do white belt division because after an hour you want to scoop your eyes out with a spoon.)
I know, sounds odd that a guy like me who doesn't train Kata would be judging it, go figure. I was asked becasue I was an honest ref and judge - and knew all the katas. I was first talked into it by Lou Lizzote, an Isshinryu instructor at a tournament in Conneticut. (I learned a lot from Lou.) I enjoyed it more than reffing kumite because you were sitting in a chair as opposed to standing up. I'd be competing later and didn't want to be standing for three hours. I stopped judging Kata when they first introduced "musical forms". To this day all I can say about that is, WTF?

I'll tell you one thing, when I'm visiting the schools of friends and first see a student doing Kata, you can see the look on their face of trying to remember the moves. Time goes by and that look is gone, replaced with a focus. More time goes by and the kata doesn't even look the same anymore, the movements are as smooth as silk, the power feels like it's trying to bust out of the person's body. To me, it's when you can really see the beauty and function of what kata is. I mean, go watch a new student doing Sanchin. Then watch Sanchin done by someone who's been doing it for thirty years.

In high school I did a book report on George Mattson's book, The Way of Karate. Got an A on it. And it was a year before I actually started training. My final exam in English as a fresman in college was to write three seperate papers with related themes. I did the first on Sanchin, the second on The Difference between Tae-Kwon-Do and Kung-Fu Forms and the third on Common Injuries in Karate Sparring. Got an A on that, too. Not because the papers were necessarily any good. But the Professor had no experience in Martial Arts.

Again, I don't really do forms. But I know a little about them. And I like them.

 

[Tez3]

I've judged kata competitions too but that's just the surface of kata, just going through the motions to see who can 'perform' better, the trick though to kata is the Bunkai, that's the meat. To a great extent it doesn't matter how crisp the techniques look when practising, how loud the kiai, how focussed the performer looks, the crunch is knowing what it is for. It's no good looking smart/powerful etc doing a kata for the past thirty years if you have no idea how to use it.

 

[Buka]

I've judged kata competitions too but that's just the surface of kata, just going through the motions to see who can 'perform' better, the trick though to kata is the Bunkai, that's the meat. To a great extent it doesn't matter how crisp the techniques look when practising, how loud the kiai, how focussed the performer looks, the crunch is knowing what it is for. It's no good looking smart/powerful etc doing a kata for the past thirty years if you have no idea how to use it.

I agree, Tez. But let me ask you this,(or anyone else) do you think there's many folks doing Kata for thirty years that have no idea how to use it? That's kind of scary to think.

 

[geezer]

I can see two reasons for the partial move.
1. this could be why some claim there are hidden techniques. The move is only half there and without understanding of the whole move a person dose know it's true meaning thus only those that have been taught at a certain level may understand the move
2. some forms are changed slightly when shown to "outsiders' so that if they are copied they are done incorrectly

I personally have experienced both situations 1 and 2 above. Re number I my old Chinese Sifu pointed out numerous instances where the diverse applications of energy, movement or structures found in the WC forms went far beyond what you could superficially see in the forms, although once explained and mastered, you could easily feel these potential applications.

Re number 2, I can say that in all my old Chinese Sifu's published books, videos, etc. he always left out or changed bits of the forms. Sometimes he would note this fact, claiming that he had promised his last instructor(Yip Man) not to show certain parts indiscriminately to the public. Other times, the altered version was simply presented with no comment. I remember asking him about this, wondering if it was good for the lineage to be putting misinformation out there to be copied and, potentially, to diminish the reputation or our system. He responded, like a few other older generation Chinese instructors I've met, saying that he didn't care what those "outside door" thought, since they knew nothing anyway! OK, that's nicer than what he actually said, but you get the point.

 

[Koshiki]

I agree, Tez. But let me ask you this,(or anyone else) do you think there's many folks doing Kata for thirty years that have no idea how to use it? That's kind of scary to think.

Yes and no. I think there are people who have used Kata for thirty years and don't know how to use it for effective, realistic training for real world fighting. I find it unlikely that there are people who have been training kata for thirty years who don't know how to use it for anything.

I mean, depending on the style and the school, it's great, healthy exercise utilizing natural movement patterns. Exercise is a valid use for kata. Kata is also a beautiful piece of tradition and culture. Cultural immersion and preservation is a valid use for kata. For some people, kata is mainly a meditative form of self-cultivation. That's a use.

I think there may be a fair amount of people with decades of training who never learned to use kata for combat because they don't really care, but I would guess they all have found some use for kata, otherwise, why keep training it?

As far as you know, "employing no miraculous understanding or deep wisdom." I suspect that many people believe Itosu was quite wise indeed. Just because we do not perceive a deeper meaning, that does not mean it is not there. I am not claiming it is or is not, just that I do not presume to know.

Looking back, my writing was imprecise. Ok, my writing was bad. I didn't mean so much that Itosu wasn't a fantastic martial artist with a deep understanding, I meant that the pinan series was not necessarily intended to be quite as profound as many of us today make it out to be. I think most of the deeper meaning people find in the series they find, not because Itosu put it there, but because the practitioner found it there.

Now, I absolutely love the Pinan series, or the Pion series, as my school calls it. My favorite interpretation of Sandan is a series of behind the back arm manipulations, controls, and breaks, coupled with the defenses against the same attacks. It flows beautifully, it makes perfect sense, it's simple, easy to perform, effective, and it reads like a story. It reads so well that It makes me want to believe that Itosu pulled those sections from Kusanku just to tell the story that I found. Except that I'm certain it wasn't.

I didn't mean that Itosu's creation of the Pinans wasn't a great, profound contribution to Karate and its descendants, only that the vast majority of the deep meanings and applications found in the form cannot possibly have all been intentionally represented there by Itosu.

And yes, it's true that Itosu's goal was to find a good kata for each year of school, and that he himself didn't feel authorized to create new forms, so he found old forms, broke them up, and asked his superior for help, who begrudgingly gave him the bizarrely different Pinan Nidan/Heian Shodan. The was a certain amount of other things going on, rather than an attempt to record the perfect essence of Okinawan Te.

I don't doubt Itosu's mastery, his wisdom, his profound depth of understanding, I only doubt that it's necessarily all encoded in the Pinan Series. That was what I meant to say. My meaning being that yes, one can become study their whole life on nothing but the Pinans, but that doesn't mean that the depth we find there is depth that Itosu expected us to find there.

Remember, Itosu himself felt he lacked the authority to create forms out of the blue, more for cultural reasons than a lack of qualification, but still...

With that in mind, I think it is valid for practitioners to create their own forms. I think it greatly helps with understanding the traditional ones. I create forms, practice and refine them for a few months, and then ditch them, precisely because it helps me understand the traditional forms, not because I think that at 26 years old I'm such a master that I really have anything to contribute to the martial arts community. I wouldn't recommend creating forms and studying them for internal insight, but rather to help you understand what others have created.

This is where I still seem to be miscommunicating with everyone in this thread. To me, whether or not a given kick, block, jump, throw, gouge, etc, is explicitly seen in a particular kata is of little to no consequence. It just doesn't matter if the system is encoded in the kata, which I believe mine is....

...I don't know a lot. But I do believe I know that a bunch of exercises, it ain't. It's as if someone complained that a song didn't have all the possible notes in it. First, so what, and second, are you really sure? Change the song? Brother, it's not my song. Maybe someday I'll write my own song, but I doubt it. The song I'm trying to sing is going to take up all the time I have left on this earth and then some to learn to sing correctly.

I would have to agree with you. By way of explanation, my style is Taekwondo, sort of. We practice front, side, round, in-out crescent, out-in crescent, axe, hook, inverted, rising, stomp/cross, and jumping and spinning variants of those, from ankle to head height.

What's explicitly depicted in our kata? Front kicks, side kicks, and out-in crescent kicks, none of them above waist height. What is applicable in our kata? All of them. Because again, kata is not a precise step-by-step how-to for fighting. If it was, it would be nothing more than a brief set of somewhat impractical drills, and certainly not a comprehensive fighting system.

Kata is a tool for exploration.

You don't need more tools.

It's not about having a tool for every purpose

It's about having a tool, for every purpose.

---------------------------------------------------

I would say though that the best way to learn to understand what is contained in the music of J.S. Bach, is to learn to write using 17th century harmonic patterns, melodic contours, formal structures, and voice-leading. It's much easier to see and understand a Fugue if you've written a few, regardless of how unremarkable they were.

 

[geezer]

OK here's a topic somewhat related to this thread: How many of you have made up your own forms, either for teaching students or to advance your training? Is this a good way to advance your art or not? Don't bother to answer here. I don't want to contribute further to "thread drift". I'll start another thread on this specific topic, so if you have an opinion, post it there.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Speaking only for myself, three reasons.

1) As previously stated, I haven't the authority to change anything about the system I practice - and I never will have.
2) I do not understand the kata I practice well enough to presume that it a) doesn't have all the answers and b) that I am capable of extending it in any meaningful way.
3) I see no reason/desire/need to do so.

\
1. If one selects a martial system, one trains the system.... Doing something else, one is training something else. So, yes while one is in a system, one has no authority to change anything, principally speaking...
\
2. The global answer as to why one must train & understand martial arts (and then vice versa) before one can competently evaluate same. Of course, "train" and "understand" will necessary be subjective to a degree...
\
3. The reason to change a kata or form is to make it better for developing one's martial skill. As you have stated & intimated; however, does one when one makes such a change, change it for the better or worse? How do your know if your changes are beneficial or detrimental?

I am not Itosu.

\
I'm not either. Yet we all advance by change & new developments.... in any discipline... We can also go backwards... So we have martial art masters creating styles ("new") throughout history.... A good example is Ja Gow's kung fu style, which is based technically on a combination of three separate earlier created kung fu styles.... Is this good or bad, right or wrong? Ja Gow thinks it's the best traditional martial art...

As far as you know, "employing no miraculous understanding or deep wisdom." I suspect that many people believe Itosu was quite wise indeed. Just because we do not perceive a deeper meaning, that does not mean it is not there. I am not claiming it is or is not, just that I do not presume to know.

\
Yeah, it's great not to presume, yet we have to come to some presumptions or read "principles" about what we are doing or we are just mimicking some physical movements someone else has demonstrated....
\
Some my presumption or conclusion is that Itsou was indeed wise... my opinion is based on the principles I have come to understand in TMA..... not a life-long study of the character himself....

I could not say, those are not kata I practice.

\
Sure you can.... All kata, forms share universal principles, and you essentially say so in your fine, detailed definition.... Obviously the specifics of each kata, of different styles, no one is an authority on everyone else's style....

Were I to presume that I was ready and desirous of creating a new system, I would also feel myself empowered to create any kata I wished, or to modify existing kata to fit the style I designed. However, that is not who I am, or what I feel I will ever become. I am a student of an existing style, one which I deeply believe is in need of no modification.

\
Me too.... However, I have changed some of the kata in my style for personal training purposes.... This then, becomes an option for any one's personal training my style.... But what I have done personally does not alter or re-define the curriculum proper...
\
I would also qualify your last sentence... it's too absolute.... Nothing is perfect, and the reason I started study of one the more basic styles of traditional karate is because of the criticism's voiced about it from both other TMA styles and from the applied sport fighting styles like boxing, MMA, etc..
\
Unlike the absolute in your final sentence... I found and confirmed plenty of flaws and problems with the traditional karates.... and eventually all karate's.... and the Korean-based versions like Tang Soo Do & TKD.... The better answer than saying a style is 'poor' or style is the 'best' is --- to determine what TMA principles support making martial art effective the way the Masters, for example, Itsou, intended...
\
You've done so in your kata descriptions. Ja Gow has done this in his version. Zack has put forth his understanding. Whose correct? some more than others... Whose perfect... only me....

This is where I still seem to be miscommunicating with everyone in this thread. To me, whether or not a given kick, block, jump, throw, gouge, etc, is explicitly seen in a particular kata is of little to no consequence. It just doesn't matter if the system is encoded in the kata, which I believe mine is.

\
Again, your statement comes across as an absolute. However, as hyperbole to make a point.... YOU ARE DEAD ON.... I have said this (what you stated, in principle) from Day 1 on this forum.... but they want to talk to you instead of me... The system is encoded in the kata... not sure why you say it isn't....???
\
On the basis of TMA principles.... it is principles the kata is training, and the physical techniques are then merely the vector or conduit for those principles to become martial techniques in effect....

"But your X kata doesn't have Y application in it?" "Oh, doesn't it? Are you sure?" Speaking only for myself, I have yet to be able to answer affirmatively to that question.

\
This is because practitioners see the technique as the art.... not the principles behind the technique... So they obsess over techniques... which technique is better, which technique is 'stupid' and for 'kids;' which technique will carry the day, how physically doing the technique will guarantee winning or overcoming the opponent. which technique should or shouldn't be a martial art style, ad nauseum.... A TMA system is not conglomeration of techniques.... The techniques are part of what some long-time member defined as a 'delivery system,' my 2-short word definition = tactics + principles, etc.

Thank you for the kind words. I am merely a beat-up old Jarhead (240 years old today, you know) who knows little but says much. The opposite of wisdom, but I talk a good game.

When I started training, as the Zen saying goes, the mountain was a mountain, the river was a river...

You are familiar, I'm sure, with the story of the Blind Men and the Elephant.

Blind men and an elephant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaI

\
Thought you weren't Itsou..???

claim no Satori, no awakening, no deep understanding of kata. When I started doing kata, it was a set of exercises, patterns, that helped me to practice and memorize a set of specific movements. I began to learn the basics of breathing and balance. Over time, continued practice became a vehicle through which I could explore the possibilities of the movements as the related to time and opportunity to strike and defend, act and react. Continued practice began to provide me with what I believe to be a deeper understanding of rhythm and timing. Transitions and stances began to become more visible and important to me. Then I began to feel as if doing kata was a moving meditation, and finally (most recently), I began to see, though yet dimly-lit and far away, a notion that kata is not only the key to karate, but that it forms an essential part of the 'do' that forms the path I seek to be part of.

\
Now, now, being a little solicitious.... Everyone recognizes the intelligence & martial understanding behind what your saying....

I don't know a lot. But I do believe I know that a bunch of exercises, it ain't. It's as if someone complained that a song didn't have all the possible notes in it. First, so what, and second, are you really sure? Change the song? Brother, it's not my song. Maybe someday I'll write my own song, but I doubt it. The song I'm trying to sing is going to take up all the time I have left on this earth and then some to learn to sing correctly.

\
Again, very Itsou'y of you.....contradicted yourself on that one. You're an 'authority' after all....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Yes and no. I think there are people who have used Kata for thirty years and don't know how to use it for effective, realistic training for real world fighting. I find it unlikely that there are people who have been training kata for thirty years who don't know how to use it for anything.

[/QUOTE]
\
I edited out Bach... belongs in marketing brochure....
\
I also wondered when we'd get the plug for the self-defense schools of members....
\
TMA gives a base for "real world" fighting.... TMA does not make on a self-defense specialist or expert... TMA was never designed to do the latter....
\
Tanks & 20mm jet cannons, I'll pass.....

 

[Koshiki]

\
I edited out Bach... belongs in marketing brochure....
\
I also wondered when we'd get the plug for the self-defense schools of members....
\
TMA gives a base for "real world" fighting.... TMA does not make on a self-defense specialist or expert... TMA was never designed to do the latter....
\
Tanks & 20mm jet cannons, I'll pass.....

Ah, I must have miscommunicated. I didn't mean that studying a traditional art will make one a knowledgeable expert on self-defense. My point was that some people use kata for a variety of reasons.

Some use kata for "real world" fighting. That could be friendly sparring with another practitioner, that could be partaking in nonsense in a bar, that could be many things. The point I was making is not what they are learning from the kata, but what they are trying to learn, using the kata as an aid.

Some use kata for excercise.

Some use it for mental distraction.

Some just use it for plain old enjoyment.

My point was that all these things have worth, and that one or the other is not the "right" way to use kata.

If I came off as claiming that kata will teach you self defense, I apologize. My intent was to communicate that it is entirely possible to train kata for decades and still to get a lot out of it, even if you're not training for Self Defense.

To clarify even farther, Self Defense is not, in any real way, why I train in the martial arts.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you use arm drag to set up your single leg, after you have obtained your opponent's single leg, you then spin his body, sweep his rooting leg, and take him down. If you do this solo without partner, it's a nice short form. As far as I know, there exist no form on earth that contain that information.

My question is why?

 

[Tez3]

If you use arm drag to set up your single leg, after you have obtained your opponent's single leg, you then spin his body, sweep his rooting leg, and take him down. If you do this solo without partner, it's a nice short form. As far as I know, there exist no form on earth that contain that information.

My question is why?

I don't know what an 'arm drag' is so don't know how it would 'set up your single leg'. To me that makes no sense because I have no idea what you are talking about, I do have an idea what 'rooting leg' is but as we don't use that expression could well be wrong. You seem to want katas to be very literal and not to have to work at them to find your self defence moves.
I think your idea of kata is different from mine and others.

 

[Paul_D]

but I would guess they all have found some use for kata, otherwise, why keep training it?

Because it's in the syllabus.

In my experience very few karate instructors understand kata and some of the utter nonsense that is taught becasue of this lack of understanding is laughable. Associations write the syllabus, not individual clubs or instructors, so they teach kata even though they don't properly understand it.

This is why, despite begin rubbished as long a go as 1938 by Mabuni (and in spite of common sense) many karate instructors today still teach "the turns in kata are you turning to face a new opponent". That is what they were taught by their instructors, and that is what they teach, and then their students become instructors and perpetuate the same nonsense to their students.

Yes they will find an alternate use for it, but that is like buying a Ferrari and then use it as a plant pot. You have this awesome highly useful and sophisticated piece of machinery, and you use it to grow Fuchsia's simply because you haven't learnt to drive.

If you have kata, use it for what it is designed for, don't use it for something else. If your goal is something else, then come up with another way of training specially deigned to address that goal.

 

[lklawson]

- Should "head dodging" be in the form? I think it should.

How do you know it's not and you've just been misinterpreting it? I've been told countless different interpretations for various movements in kata. What is the "X-Block" which is part of more than one kata? Is it a knife block, as so many once claimed? A lapel cross-choke (nami-juji-jime) as is now the popular interpretations? A double knife-hand (shuto) neck strike? All of the above as needed? Something else? What about the classic "high block?" I've seen three or four different interpretations of what that "really is."

- Why it's not in the form? I truly don't know.

Maybe it was (is?) and teachers with no experience applying it didn't transmit that application to their students and it got "lost?"

- Should someone adds it into the form? I think someone should.

Maybe you don't have to.

This is why I conclude that kata is what it needs to be for each person, teacher, or lineage.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk