Etiquette when you are doing better than your rolling partner?

[skribs]

Well, it's finally happened. I'm experienced enough that I can actually convincingly beat some of the newest students.

The other day, I'm doing pass/sweep positional rolls with a newer student. I very easily passed his guard twice. After the second reset, I thought I'd hold off a bit and let him work on some offense, and then try and find a happy medium.

Professor yelled, "What are you doing? Pass his guard!"

So I passed it again. Is it my job as a training partner to try and let my partner work a bit during the roll? Or should I just smash them and then let upper belts and coaches meter their work?

 

[drop bear]

Can you convincingly pass him on your gumby side?

 

[Holmejr]

Just be gracious. “we all start at the same place” “I think you’re doing great” type comments. Shake hands, with sincerity.

 

[skribs]

Can you convincingly pass him on your gumby side?

I don't remember if we were switching sides or not. I don't think we were. Good idea.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

At your current level, go ahead and keep working as you normally would. You don’t need to hold back and give your opponent extra chances to work.

Later on, that can change. When you get to the point as an upper belt where you can just easily squash everything your sparring partner tries so that they just give up and shut down, then it will be time to back off and play a little bit so that you can both get some benefit out of the round. But you’re not there yet. If you have a partner whose guard you can pass easily, then great. You’ll get a chance to practice maintaining top position and hunting submissions, while they’ll get a chance to work on their defense and escapes.

Edit - on re-read I see you were doing pass/sweep drills so the holding top position afterwards wouldn’t come into play. That’s fine. You can either keep repeating the same pass so that your partner can work on figuring out how to stop it or you can switch to working on a different pass that you aren’t as skilled with.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Can you convincingly pass him on your gumby side?

Omg. After watching Lahaina burn, this was some soul food.

I don't think most people will get the Buddhist message in your post, but I sure did. Art Clokely.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Well, it's finally happened. I'm experienced enough that I can actually convincingly beat some of the newest students.

The other day, I'm doing pass/sweep positional rolls with a newer student. I very easily passed his guard twice. After the second reset, I thought I'd hold off a bit and let him work on some offense, and then try and find a happy medium.

Professor yelled, "What are you doing? Pass his guard!"

So I passed it again. Is it my job as a training partner to try and let my partner work a bit during the roll? Or should I just smash them and then let upper belts and coaches meter their work?

In my off time, I help people learn how to drive.

I often have to commandingly say "STOP" in the middle of a turn, at an intersection, or just a simple old white stop sign line.

Students first response is often "WTF!? Are you trying to mess with me??". Very defensive. And I often retort with some joke about not wanting to die. If you've ever been the passenger of a new driver, you'll get me.

The instructor is there to watch you, because in the heat of combate, it's hard to be objective. So I would just do what you are doing, be conscious of who is dominating who, and if the prof says to engage with fangs out, that's your sign.

 

[skribs]

Follow-up: what about a complete newbie? Particularly one who is more timid and cautious. How would you recommend I go against them?

Against an athletic and aggressive newbie I still sometimes have problems and need to work through them. But the kind of person who (like me when I first started) goes, "I've only learned two moves, I forgot yesterday's move and I don't really remember today's either", and then in every position is stuck.

Especially if it's someone I outweigh by 20-30 pounds.

Should I just use them for drilling practice? Should I pause in each position we end up in to give them some idea of the goal they should have?

I remember my first week. We learned an arm drag to back take from bottom half guard. Then we do positional rolls, and every single person posts their arm on the floor so I can't drag it the way we did in drills, and I'm just stuck. I want others to at least get some work in. Especially newbies that might be on the fence about staying.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Mostly still roll normally. It's important for them to get used to rolling, and the uncomfortableness/panic that might be a part of that, and there are other people more qualified than you (currently) to help them with the technical stuff.

That said, if you're in a position where you see they've got something or you see the deer in the headlights look you can still encourage them or help them tweak what they've got. I know there were plenty of times I had some sort of arm lock and my partner would tell me to adjust x, then I get it. Or just a simple reminder, don't flail, try to bridge/shrimp while they're doing y..and they continue doing whatever they're doing, but it reminded me I have at least one thing I can do.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Mostly still roll normally. It's important for them to get used to rolling, and the uncomfortableness/panic that might be a part of that, and there are other people more qualified than you (currently) to help them with the technical stuff.

That said, if you're in a position where you see they've got something or you see the deer in the headlights look you can still encourage them or help them tweak what they've got. I know there were plenty of times I had some sort of arm lock and my partner would tell me to adjust x, then I get it. Or just a simple reminder, don't flail, try to bridge/shrimp while they're doing y..and they continue doing whatever they're doing, but it reminded me I have at least one thing I can do.

I just remembered a difference in our schools. My first two weeks (going daily/almost daily), I spent most of that time learning fundamentals and rolling with either complete newbies like myself, or purple belt minimum. Only after that did I start learning 'move of the day' type stuff. Based on what you've said, I think you guys don't get the fundamentals training, so that might invalidate my response/experience here.

 

[skribs]

I just remembered a difference in our schools. My first two weeks (going daily/almost daily), I spent most of that time learning fundamentals and rolling with either complete newbies like myself, or purple belt minimum. Only after that did I start learning 'move of the day' type stuff. Based on what you've said, I think you guys don't get the fundamentals training, so that might invalidate my response/experience here.

My professor's opinion is that if you do just fundamentals, people will get bored and quit. While that certainly is true, I do wish there was more work on fundamentals at my level. Oh well.

Class is usually:

• Short warmup
• 2-3 moves from one position. For example, a sweep from half-guard, another sweep or a variation if that one isn't working, and then maybe a third sweep or a pass.
• Positional rolls (1-2 rounds) that are pass/sweep reset, or pass/sweep/submit reset (depending on the move of the day). Sometimes we do half-round and switch top/bottom, sometimes we do full rounds and switch on resets.
• Live positional rolls (0-2 rounds), start in position of the day and only reset on submission, switch top/bottom on reset
• Live rolls from the feet (however much time we have left)

My professor will sometimes give instructions to the "upper" belt on what to do with a complete newbie during rolls (positional or live). Sometimes he doesn't. Often it's "Hey, I need your help. It's so-and-so's second day, so give them some ideas what to do from the position" or something like that.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Follow-up: what about a complete newbie? Particularly one who is more timid and cautious. How would you recommend I go against them?

Against an athletic and aggressive newbie I still sometimes have problems and need to work through them. But the kind of person who (like me when I first started) goes, "I've only learned two moves, I forgot yesterday's move and I don't really remember today's either", and then in every position is stuck.

Especially if it's someone I outweigh by 20-30 pounds.

Should I just use them for drilling practice? Should I pause in each position we end up in to give them some idea of the goal they should have?

I remember my first week. We learned an arm drag to back take from bottom half guard. Then we do positional rolls, and every single person posts their arm on the floor so I can't drag it the way we did in drills, and I'm just stuck. I want others to at least get some work in. Especially newbies that might be on the fence about staying.

As long as your partner is actively trying to do something, then keep rolling and use it as an opportunity to just drill techniques you want to work on against a moving target. (While trying to use as little strength and speed as possible, especially if you are bigger than they are.)

If they just shut down completely because they don't know what to do in a position, then you can give them a little encouragement and coaching to get them restarted. For example if you are mounted on them, you can tell them, "wrap up my arm, now trap my ankle on that same side, now bridge towards the side where you have me wrapped." As long as they approximately get the technique, then allow them to complete it without resistance. (Don't throw yourself over, but don't fight it.) Then as soon as they complete the escape, start rolling normally again.)

But at your level, try not to spend too much time in this sort of coaching mode. Save it for when your partner just stops trying and is laying there saying "I don't know what to do." Give them just enough direction to start moving again, maybe give them a little encouragement if they try to do the right thing ("good try!"), and then carry on getting your own practice.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Often it's "Hey, I need your help. It's so-and-so's second day, so give them some ideas what to do from the position" or something like that.

If you get this assignment, try to pick just a couple of basic concepts or movements that the new student can keep on trying. For example, if you are working on half-guard then have them work on getting to their side and fighting for the underhook. Then give them some mild resistance and only pass when they fail to keep working to their side and getting the underhook. Don't pull any clever tricks like hitting them with a Darce choke when they have the underhook. You want to give them positive reinforcement when they follow instructions.

 

[skribs]

If they just shut down completely because they don't know what to do in a position, then you can give them a little encouragement and coaching to get them restarted. For example if you are mounted on them, you can tell them, "wrap up my arm, now trap my ankle on that same side, now bridge towards the side where you have me wrapped." As long as they approximately get the technique, then allow them to complete it without resistance. (Don't throw yourself over, but don't fight it.) Then as soon as they complete the escape, start rolling normally again.)

This is the kind of situation I'm talking about.

I do the move-of-the-day to pass knee shield into mount. My partner has never been in bottom mount yet and says "what do I do?"

 

[skribs]

Follow-on question. I'm finally at a point where when a new person comes in, there's more likely a chance that I will be in control of the roll, or at least that I'll be in a relatively safe position throughout. Meaning I'll barely spend any time under side control or mount, and if I'm in a bottom guard position, chances are I'm going to end up on top and then stay on top.

Part of me wants to focus mainly on rolling with the newer guys for a while. Just because I finally have someone in the demographic of "Not as good as me", I want to make up for lost time where I was getting smashed nonstop. And then find a healthier ratio in a few months or so of rolling with underclassmen, peers, and upperclassmen.

But part of me wonders if that's just me being a jerk, that I mainly seek out people I believe I have a healthy chance of beating. Is this me being a jerk, or does it make sense to want a chance to explore techniques instead of just defense?

 

[JowGaWolf]

that I mainly seek out people I believe I have a healthy chance of beating.

This means yousre to focused on winning. Instead of thinking about beating the new guy, use the opportunity to work on things that you aren't good at. Do this and you'll gain new skills to use against people at your same skill level.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Can you convincingly pass him on your gumby side?

Gumby side. Yep gotta work on that side too. So people can stop calling it the gumby side

 

[skribs]

This means yousre to focused on winning. Instead of thinking about beating the new guy, use the opportunity to work on things that you aren't good at. Do this and you'll gain new skills to use against people at your same skill level.

No, I'd like to be able to practice something other than side control and mount escapes.

If I want to work on top position? Can't do much against anyone else. Guard retention? I get about 10 seconds every 5 minutes, after which I'm working on side control escapes.

The last few weeks have been the first time I've been able to get out of bad spots, win the guard game, and establish and maintain a dominant position consistently against different opponents. It's been the first time I've really been able to practice every skill other than just side control and mount escapes.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Follow-on question. I'm finally at a point where when a new person comes in, there's more likely a chance that I will be in control of the roll, or at least that I'll be in a relatively safe position throughout. Meaning I'll barely spend any time under side control or mount, and if I'm in a bottom guard position, chances are I'm going to end up on top and then stay on top.

Part of me wants to focus mainly on rolling with the newer guys for a while. Just because I finally have someone in the demographic of "Not as good as me", I want to make up for lost time where I was getting smashed nonstop. And then find a healthier ratio in a few months or so of rolling with underclassmen, peers, and upperclassmen.

But part of me wonders if that's just me being a jerk, that I mainly seek out people I believe I have a healthy chance of beating. Is this me being a jerk, or does it make sense to want a chance to explore techniques instead of just defense?

You need 3 kinds of sparring partners.

You need the people who aren’t on your level yet so that you can build your offense, your ability to control the other person, and work on repping out techniques that you just aren’t good enough yet to get on the more experienced people.

You need people who are way better than you so that you can work on defense and survival and have all your technical flaws exposed.

And you want some partners who are around your level so that you can get a little motivational rivalry and have a technical arms race. Last week you learned a slick trick that let you arm bar Joe 3 times in a row. But now this week he’s learned the counter, so every time you try the arm bar you get your guard passed. So next week you figure out a counter to his counter. But the next week after that you discover that he’s been working on his cardio and he just tires you out. And so on.

Of course, this is a gross oversimplification. You want sparring partners with all kinds of skill levels, physical attributes, body types, movement styles, training backgrounds, etc. But it helps you understand the benefits you get from training with people who are worse than you, better than you, and around your level.

So definitely take advantage of the opportunity to roll with the new guys that you can dominate. But also get in rounds with guys who can kick your butt. And with the guys who are around your own level.

 

[drop bear]

You need 3 kinds of sparring partners.

You need the people who aren’t on your level yet so that you can build your offense, your ability to control the other person, and work on repping out techniques that you just aren’t good enough yet to get on the more experienced people.

You need people who are way better than you so that you can work on defense and survival and have all your technical flaws exposed.

And you want some partners who are around your level so that you can get a little motivational rivalry and have a technical arms race. Last week you learned a slick trick that let you arm bar Joe 3 times in a row. But now this week he’s learned the counter, so every time you try the arm bar you get your guard passed. So next week you figure out a counter to his counter. But the next week after that you discover that he’s been working on his cardio and he just tires you out. And so on.

Of course, this is a gross oversimplification. You want sparring partners with all kinds of skill levels, physical attributes, body types, movement styles, training backgrounds, etc. But it helps you understand the benefits you get from training with people who are worse than you, better than you, and around your level.

So definitely take advantage of the opportunity to roll with the new guys that you can dominate. But also get in rounds with guys who can kick your butt. And with the guys who are around your .

To add to this. It is about flipping the script in your head and not looking for the right partner. But looking at what you can develop from the partner you have.