Drugs: Legalise or Prohibit?

[granfire]

Isn't marijuana linked to mental illness though? This doesn't sound encouraging, I've no interest in trying the drug but this would put me off if I were thinking about it.

MENTAL HEALTH, BRAIN FUNCTION, AND MEMORY
It has been suggested that marijuana is at the root of many mental disorders, including acute toxic psychosis, panic attacks (one of the very conditions it is being used experimentally to treat), flashbacks, delusions, depersonalization, hallucinations, paranoia, depression, and uncontrollable aggressiveness. Marijuana has long been known to trigger attacks of mental illness, such as bipolar (manic-depressive) psychosis and schizophrenia. This connection with mental illness should make health care providers for terminally ill patients and the patients themselves, who may already be suffering from some form of clinical depression, weigh very carefully the pros and cons of adopting a therapeutic course of marijuana.
In the short term, marijuana use impairs perception, judgment, thinking, memory, and learning; memory defects may persist six weeks after last use. Mental disorders connected with marijuana use merit their own category in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) IV, published by the American Psychiatric Association. These include Cannabis Intoxication (consisting of impaired motor coordination, anxiety, impaired judgment, sensation of slowed time, social withdrawal, and often includes perceptual disturbances; Cannabis Intoxication Delirium (memory deficit, disorientation); Cannabis Induced Psychotic Disorder, Delusions; Cannabis Induced Psychotic Disorder, Hallucinations; and Cannabis Induced Anxiety Disorder.
In addition, marijuana use has many indirect effects on health. Its effect on coordination, perception, and judgment means that it causes a number of accidents, vehicular and otherwise.

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/evidence99/marijuana/Health_1.html

Sounds not too different from what my Mom told me about alcohol issues...her more memorable moments in over 30 years professionally in mental health/detox and rehab were alcohol (especially hard liquor) and the nasty stuff like crack etc, I don't recall pot being mentioned...

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Humans never have. Never will. And probably never should base decisions purely on logic alone. Values are as important or even more so when dealing with issues such as this. What is important to us as a people...logical or not.

Another continuum. Spock wasn't right, and neither was Manson. Enlightenment comes when we balance perfectly our animal instincts against rational analysis.

 

[Archangel M]

We all fall in the middle. For you, the potential damage of having some guy on life support for years outweighs his right to make personal choices. My values say the opposite.

Make all the personal choices you want as long as they dont injure someone else (of course my decision to not wear a belt could "injure" the welfare of my wife and kids) or wind up making someone else PAY for what it is you wanted to do. Much like wildlife rescue services should send a bill to the mountain climbers who fall into crevasses. The problem (as I see it) is that most people who cry "I should be free to choose X" are also the ones who cry that they should not have to pay out their life savings and all of their assets when what they CHOSE to do lands them in trouble.

 

[Steve]

Isn't marijuana linked to mental illness though? This doesn't sound encouraging, I've no interest in trying the drug but this would put me off if I were thinking about it.

Ultimately, testing is inconclusive. There is nothing definitive linking MJ to any mental illness (although, like people who insisted for years that smoking wasn't unhealthy, it's clear that if you abuse MJ, much as if you abuse ANYTHING, there will be consequences).

There are literally millions of people who have smoked weed throughout their adult lives, are high functioning and have suffered no observable ill effects. Others react poorly very quickly. Again, obvious parallels to alcohol.

There is also a lot of evidence to suggest that MJ is used to self medicate pre-existing mental illness. In other words, it's a cause/effect question. I brought up in a previous thread on the same subject the NFL running back, Ricky Williams. He had an anxiety disorder that he self medicated with MJ. It eventually got him kicked out of the NFL, but had he taken the Paxil as prescribed (which reportedly involved many undesirable side effects for him) he would have been fine. A sad case, really.

Source: http://www.drugabuse.gov/infofacts/marijuana.html

I'll also add that I think that alcohol or drug use in minors is a bad idea. Much as I don't like the idea of kids being hit in the noggin, as I've stated in threads on kids sparring and such, I also don't like the idea of a child whose brain is rapidly developing into adulthood being impaired. That, to me, just feels like a terrible idea. I've seen evidence and studies in MJ use in kids, and the negative effects aren't surprising to me at all.

 

[ballen0351]

@Ballen: you raise an interesting point. I think for most people who would legalize MJ, it's because a lot of research seems to indicate that it's no worse than alcohol, and clearly safer than tobacco. Crack and heroin are demonstrably worse than all three.

Personally I'm torn there. I object to drug prohibition because it doesn't work. Anybody can get drugs in the US if they want them. Anybody. It seems like a waste of resources better applied elsewhere. If we legalize marijuana, but not crack -- then we're still engaging in a policy that doesn't work. It doesn't resolve my chief concern.

Cant the same be said for any law? If they made a law and everyone followed it we would not need the police so to say well its everywhere anyone can get it so might as well make it legal could be applied to all laws because they are broken everyday.

 

[Steve]

If you shave off all of the "war on drugs".."needless expense".."drug violence"...yadda yadda trappings it all boils down to "I want to smoke weed" in the end. And even though weed IS wide spread it is still not a common in our society as drinking alcohol is.

LOL. And if you shave off all of the "negative societal impact"..."what about the children?"..."drug addled criminal" yadda yadda trappings, it' all boils down to, "I don't like it, so you shouldn't do it."

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Make all the personal choices you want as long as they dont injure someone else (of course my decision to not wear a belt could "injure" the welfare of my wife and kids) or wind up making someone else PAY for what it is you wanted to do. Much like wildlife rescue services should send a bill to the mountain climbers who fall into crevasses. The problem (as I see it) is that most people who cry "I should be free to choose X" are also the ones who cry that they should not have to pay out their life savings and all of their assets when what they CHOSE to do lands them in trouble.

For me, the damage has to be direct and real.

You don't get to punch me, or point a gun at me, or steal from me. That's assault or theft and impinges on my rights as a human.
You don't get to tell lies about me in a way that hurts my livelihood or reputation. That's libel (or slander) and can hurt my family or livelihood.

Beyond that, things start getting indirect and theoretical.

I can't choose to ride without a helmet because I might get in a wreck and that wreck might put me on life support and my insurance might run out with money left to pay? Sorry, don't buy it.

That road quickly leads to criminalizing bad decisions of all sorts. Your credit card debt costs me money. So does your cousin's choice to drop out of school. Or my Catholic friend's decision to have six children.

 

[ballen0351]

Sounds not too different from what my Mom told me about alcohol issues...her more memorable moments in over 30 years professionally in mental health/detox and rehab were alcohol (especially hard liquor) and the nasty stuff like crack etc, I don't recall pot being mentioned...

People do die from Marijuana, people do get addicted to marijuana, just like crack, and other drugs.

 

[Steve]

True but it's still going to be illegal and have the police having to chase them so not a lot is going to be gained from making the drug legal, it's still going to cost the tax payer court and police costs. Though due to the way cigarettes and alcohol are viewed by people as relatively harmless I can't see adults buying drugs for kids quite as much.
There'll still be be a blackmarket though whoever buys them as someone is going to want to make money out of it.
I'm not advocating for or against making it legal, I don't know what would work in your country but I can't help thinking that for the people that are for making it legal it won't as much of a bonus as they think and it won't change very much either so perhaps erring on the side of caution and keeping it illegal could be better. :idunno:

Cops already, largely ignore weed. If cops spent their time chasing down every casual, recreational user of strictly MJ, there'd be no time for anything else.

 

[Tez3]

Perhaps it's could be left up to you whether you chose to wear a seatbelt in the front seat of a car but if you don't wear one in the back seat you could well kill the person in the front seat if the vehicle has to stop suddenly or is in an accident.
http://www.scottishmodifiedcars.com/features/news_rss_seatbelts_june.php

I picked that site because once you had read the article you could look at the cool cars lol.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Also, out here, wildlife rescue does charge for rescuing idiots.

 

[Tez3]

Cops already, largely ignore weed. If cops spent their time chasing down every casual, recreational user of strictly MJ, there'd be no time for anything else.

Exactly, that happens here too so really they'd be little change making it legal.

 

[ballen0351]

That's already been answered. Some would argue that the pros of legalization outweigh the cons regardless of the substance. I don't personally agree with this.

For me, it is truly about the potential negative impact on society, and in this case it's pretty clear. Crack, Meth, Heroin and other similar drugs lead inevitably through a destructive cycle of addiction. Just about everyone who gets into Meth ends up chasing the dragon and spiraling until they either crash and burn or crash and emerge from the ashes.

Weed doesn't have this. If abused, weed might lead to a listless lack of ambition and a compromised short term memory. That's about it. The slippery slope fallacy is just that, flawed logic, and in this case it clearly doesn't apply. Edit: Just want to add that there are obvious health issues, resulting from smoking plant (whether that be tobacco or whatever). This is a simplification, but the point is that a person doesn't become a crazed, drug addled psychopath such as was presented in Reefer Madness.

Bill brought up murder. Why not legalize murder? Same thing. If murder were legal, what would happen? Well, people would be able to murder with impunity. That's... wow. I think we can all agree that this is a very bad idea.

Your facts are old and wrong there have been studies that shown Marijuana does kill, it is addicting, it does cause mental issues, just like all drugs.

 

[Steve]

Your facts are old and wrong there have been studies that shown Marijuana does kill, it is addicting, it does cause mental issues, just like all drugs.

Oh brother. They're from the NIDA. That's as close to "the source" as I can think of for relevant statistical information on the subject.

 

[Archangel M]

Except when the rubber meets the road (or the head) that not how it works. The toll of auto accidents and their cost in lives and cash is large...there is long standing legal precedent for placing restrictions on vehicle operation and safety equipment. Why not be able to drive a car without bumpers or windshields (both illegal here btw)? I know that vehicle and traffic rules are going afield here, but there is also a longstanding history of substance restriction. Coke-a-Cola used to have "cocaine" in it once upon a time. Not allowing yall to have your ganga is far from a trampling of individual freedoms as far as our history goes.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

People do die from Marijuana, people do get addicted to marijuana, just like crack, and other drugs.

Really? You're the police officer and expert, so I'm asking for information here. Can you point to any cases of actual death from marijuana?

I mean death from MJ, like a cocaine overdose or the way people die from heroin withdrawal. Not dying from stupidity while stoned - like in a vehicle accident or falling off a mountain while hiking on MJ.

Seriously, I'm curious here. Not picking a fight.

 

[Archangel M]

Perhaps the real solution is to pass laws where your medical insurance can refuse payment if you are injured while not wearing belts, while DWI, etc. And pass laws where your next of kin have to foot the bill for any EMS /medical service if your decision kills you.

It will never happen, but it presents an interesting take on the issue I believe.

As an aside. This seat-belt issue is a problem in my own profession:

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/news/no-seat-belt-usage-42-fatal-po

No Seat Belt Usage in 42% of Fatal Police Car Crashes
Some officers resist wearing seat belts because the restraints slow their movement.

 

[Tez3]

Oh brother. They're from the NIDA. That's as close to "the source" as I can think of for relevant statistical information on the subject.

Never let it be said that debating here is a waste of time! I've been trying to find anything from the British Medical Journal about the dangers or not of marijuana, didn't find any but did find an article saying red wine doesn't cause heartburn and it made my spirits jump, I take daily meds for v bad heartburn but love red wine ( not much just good wine) and now I can go back to drinking it.

sorry, just wanted to say thanks guys

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Perhaps the real solution is to pass laws where your medical insurance can refuse payment if you are injured while not wearing belts, while DWI, etc. And pass laws where your next of kin have to foot the bill for any EMS /medical service if your decision kills you.

It will never happen, but it presents an interesting take on the issue I believe.

1. Wouldn't that exacerbate the issue? If your concern is personally picking up the tab, then making it easier for the insurance company refuse just puts most medical expenses directly on the public tab. Families can't afford to pay that out, so bankruptcy and bailouts reach back into our pockets.

2. Insurance already won't pay out for DWI or anything else where you're hurt while committing a crime.

 

[ballen0351]

Oh brother. They're from the NIDA. That's as close to "the source" as I can think of for relevant statistical information on the subject.

Per the NIDA site
Long-term marijuana use can lead to addiction; that is, people have difficulty controlling their drug use and cannot stop even though it interferes with many aspects of their lives. It is estimated that 9 percent of people who use marijuana will become dependent on it. The number goes up to about 1 in 6 in those who start using young (in their teens) and to 25-50 percent among daily users. Moreover, a study of over 300 fraternal and identical twin pairs found that the twin who had used marijuana before the age of 17 had elevated rates of other drug use and drug problems later on, compared with their twin who did not use before age 17.
Marijuana accounted for 4.2 million of the estimated 7 million Americans dependent on or abusing illicit drugs. In 2008, approximately 15 percent of people entering drug abuse treatment programs reported marijuana as their primary drug of abuse; 61 percent of those were under age 15,

Research has shown that marijuana's negative effects on attention, memory, and learning can last for days or weeks after the acute effects of the drug wear off (Schweinsburg et al. 2008).

Per C.E.D.A.R.S research report:
For 2002 there were a total of 157 deaths in the 31 Metro areas in which Marijuana is the only drug reported

Here a 3 medical case studies where people have died from using marijana its called cerebellar infarction.
http://medicalmarijuana.procon.org/sourcefiles/MJstrokes.pdf