Dr. Chapel - Technical Kicking Question

[marlon]

Yes me too, only i live too fart away. Doc can you name a chinese or okinawan form that particularly stands out to you as teaching indexing through posture as you mentioned?

Respectfully,
Marlon

sorry i should really proff read these things.....i live too far away...not the other word

marlon

 

[Danjo]

sorry i should really proff read these things.....i live too far away...not the other word

marlon

Not to mention you "Nad practice" from the earlier post

 

[Flying Crane]

Doc What do you think of san chin kata in relation to alignment and mechanics?

Respectfully,
Marlon

I can't comment on the body mechanics, and I don't know the kata but I have seen it performed. As I suggested in my earlier post, I have heard that its tension exercises place dangerous stress on the heart, and can lead to heart disease. It is sometimes said that Goju people who do San Chin, as well as Hung Gar people, die young if they train a lot.

 

[marlon]

I can't comment on the body mechanics, and I don't know the kata but I have seen it performed. As I suggested in my earlier post, I have heard that its tension exercises place dangerous stress on the heart, and can lead to heart disease. It is sometimes said that Goju people who do San Chin, as well as Hung Gar people, die young if they train a lot.

San chin is not always done with hard tension. some Chinese versions and then Uechi ryu version are not hard.

Marlon

 

[marlon]

I just finished reviewing an old biomechanics text on complex kinematic chains, and their specifics (right/wrong, good form that aids/bad form that injures or depletes efficiency) in sports applications (minute dissection of tennis serves, pitching throws, golf swings, and the specific muscular firing sequences optimal for each, as well as the analysis of dyskenisias in these chains...how to spot them when the correct sequence is deviated from, and how to fix it).

I am reminded throughout this text of SL4 concepts, and brought back to an appreciation of the subtleties in SL4 that make a difference.

For an experiment in optimal kinematic chain recruitment and indexing...(this might be fodder for a different thread, but it kinda fits here...)

In lotsa kenpo, a lead hand back-knuckle is thrown point-of origin to point of contact. In SL4, we usually do something else on the way to the back-knuckle to recruit some buncha muscles and improve joint and structural stability as we go. Some of what we do is considered "bad form" in many kenpo circles. Example: In a technique with a glancing inward elbow to the ribs, followed immediately by an outward elbow to the other side of the ribs, I reach with my hand really far after the inward elbow, to c o c k for the outward elbow. I get told (at non-SL4 schools) not to do that; it violates economy of motion. Nevermind that the actual blow lands like a ton of bricks; gotta keep it short and snappy.

But back to the backfist, and a motion/force experiment that involves complex kinematic chains. Take a right neutral bow facing a heavy bad, or whatever your target of choice is (friend holding focus pad, etc.). Throw your best, fastest, hardest backfist to your 12:00 target. Pay attention to how hard it hits, and what your shoulder feels like near or at the time of contact. Throw a few in a row, warming up to doing it harder each time.

Next, with your right lead hand, before you throw the backfist, throw a vertical thrust punch type of motion to 9:00 on the ground clock. (or, if you're using a compass, your bad guy is at North, and you extend a punch or simply straighten your arm out towards West). You're going to combine 2 moves. Imagine drawing a bowstring back towards you, from that 9:00 position. Elbow high. When your hand is about 4 to 6 inches from your shoulder, switch directions to throw the backfist to 12:00. Do it a couple times so that your hand is sling-shotting around the hitch in the shoulder, instead of stopping at the 90-ish degree angle that it clears while changing directions. In other words, round the corner from the bowstring pull, to the backfist. Warm into it with a few slow-mo practice runs, then pick up the pace to full speed & full power. Add a slap check: About a 16th of a second before the backfist hits the target, use your left hand to slap yourself on the anterior deltiod/biceps/pectoralis tie-in on the front of your right shoulder.

Do it on your heavy bag/target a couple of times, and notice the stability in your shoulder. Also notice the improved power in the strike. It may SEEM to move more slowly because of the extra distance you're travelling (from the extended punch starting point, back towards your body, then out to the backfist). HOWEVER!!!! now go back and throw your original lead hand backfist to the target again. You should notice a couple of things:

1. The standard method is weaker, slower, and had some odd "hitches" in the shoulder joint as it elevates and extends.

2. Despite the extra distance to cover en route, the "indexed" version is faster. Meaning, from the time the starters pistol goes off and it leaves the starting blocks at the vertical punch to 9:00 position, to the time it lands actually takes less time than when you throw it from a lead-hand fighting position.

3. Going back to the standard way leaves you feeling like you're straining or hurting your joints. Because you are.

Have fun,

Dave

This is good stuff. It brings up a point that has come up in class with the students . i emphasize body mechanics that the students find slow things down such as a proper crane to the front before pivoting into the side kick...not dropping the knee ...etc my explaination so far has been the this is the optimal form for maximal effect and that in a crisis situation you will loose some of the form of your practice. Therefore if you already start your practice with suboptimal basics then when you need them you are really below the mark. however, i like the way sl4 just says it is the correct way period.
again i have never trained with Doc so the body mechanics may not match what he teaches but the idae is the same

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Doc]

.

 

[Doc]

This is good stuff. It brings up a point that has come up in class with the students . i emphasize body mechanics that the students find slow things down such as a proper crane to the front before pivoting into the side kick...not dropping the knee ...etc my explaination so far has been the this is the optimal form for maximal effect and that in a crisis situation you will loose some of the form of your practice. Therefore if you already start your practice with suboptimal basics then when you need them you are really below the mark. however, i like the way sl4 just says it is the correct way period.
again i have never trained with Doc so the body mechanics may not match what he teaches but the idae is the same

Respectfully,
Marlon

Consider my comments about kicking and the multiple mechanisms and postures necessary to perform them correctly without injury. I too like you sir, demand everything is performed correctly. Once a student asked me if I was too demanding. I told him that if a technique requires 10 things to be most efficient, but in the process of applying them in stressful reality you screw up 5, you can still survive and be effective. However if in training I only demanded 5, and you easily screwed up 3 or 4, than you got nothing.

As an example, when all of the mechanisms are in play, if you were to charge to grapple with one of my students in the midst of performing a roundhouse kick, you would not knock him off his feet or balance. He would either complete the kick, or bounce back into a strong stance.

There is an obssesion with speed in most people. Wanting to be fast is normal, expecially in the arts. Somehow Kenpo has acquired more than its share of 'need for speed' over and above basics. This is mostly because 'basics' after the early sixties were never consistently taught by Mr. Parker, instead switching to a conceptual model to allow him freedom of movement between his many schools and students.

Basics require a knowledgeable teacher, pounding and making constant, and sometime small corrections consistently every class. This was physically impossible, so 'basics' died in favor of 'concepts.' Therefore, in general, no one actually knows them at a finite level. Instead the business of kenpo switched to teaching 'self-defense techniques, forms and sets' conceptually over the finite basics needed to support the physical actions.

Students always want to be fast, inspite of the fact in no physical activity do you began learning this way. Every physical activity starts with learning the basic movements slowly and correctly, with speed building a little at a time until the movement is inculcated and 'natural' in execution - except kenpo.

I pick my students carefully, and anyone who does not have the commitment to learn correctly is rejected.

As far as sanchin, there are various versions and rather than step on someone feelings, I'll just generally say the 'knee in' position in male practitioners is acceptable on a limited basis, but requires a compensating drop in height. It is also NOT designed for mobility as some have used it. Dynamic tension of this type can exacerbate other subtle problems with larynx, blood pressure, heart disease, and stroke potential over time.

Marlon, keep doing what you're doing sir. As your knowledge improves pass it on to your students. Do the best you can do, and when you can, do better. The 'idea' is important. Too bad more don't have it.

 

[Danjo]

Consider my comments about kicking and the multiple mechanisms and postures necessary to perform them correctly without injury. I too like you sir, demand everything is performed correctly. Once a student asked me if I was too demanding. I told him that if a technique requires 10 things to be most efficient, but in the process of applying them in stressful reality you screw up 5, you can still survive and be effective. However if in training I only demanded 5, and you easily screwed up 3 or 4, than you got nothing.

As an example, when all of the mechanisms are in play, if you were to charge to grapple with one of my students in the midst of performing a roundhouse kick, you would not knock him off his feet or balance. He would either complete the kick, or bounce back into a strong stance.

There is an obssesion with speed in most people. Wanting to be fast is normal, expecially in the arts. Somehow Kenpo has acquired more than its share of 'need for speed' over and above basics. This is mostly because 'basics' after the early sixties were never consistently taught by Mr. Parker, instead switching to a conceptual model to allow him freedom of movement between his many schools and students.

Basics require a knowledgeable teacher, pounding and making constant, and sometime small corrections consistently every class. This was physically impossible, so 'basics' died in favor of 'concepts.' Therefore, in general, no one actually knows them at a finite level. Instead the business of kenpo switched to teaching 'self-defense techniques, forms and sets' conceptually over the finite basics needed to support the physical actions.

Students always want to be fast, inspite of the fact in no physical activity do you began learning this way. Every physical activity starts with learning the basic movements slowly and correctly, with speed building a little at a time until the movement is inculcated and 'natural' in execution - except kenpo.

I pick my students carefully, and anyone who does not have the commitment to learn correctly is rejected.

As far as sanchin, there are various versions and rather than step on someone feelings, I'll just generally say the 'knee in' position in male practitioners is acceptable on a limited basis, but requires a compensating drop in height. It is also NOT designed for mobility as some have used it. Dynamic tension of this type can exacerbate other subtle problems with larynx, blood pressure, heart disease, and stroke potential over time.

Marlon, keep doing what you're doing sir. As your knowledge improves pass it on to your students. Do the best you can do, and when you can, do better. The 'idea' is important. Too bad more don't have it.

Doc,

how many "Naturals" do you come across when it comes to picking up techniques quickly? The reason I ask is that in an article by Ed Parker he once talked about working out with Bruce Lee. He said that Lee could watch you do a technique once and do it as well as you did it the first time and the second time he would do it better. Was this exaggeration on Mr. Parker's part? If not, how many other naturals like that have you come across?

 

[Doc]

Doc,

how many "Naturals" do you come across when it comes to picking up techniques quickly? The reason I ask is that in an article by Ed Parker he once talked about working out with Bruce Lee. He said that Lee could watch you do a technique once and do it as well as you did it the first time and the second time he would do it better. Was this exaggeration on Mr. Parker's part? If not, how many other naturals like that have you come across?

Certainly some have more physical gifts than others, but as far as 'naturals' go, some may be gifted in one aspect but lousy in others. This is more likely the case with all humans. If you are talking about a singular, or a few particular movements, there are lots of 'naturals.' But overall this trait would be beyond rare.

Some may have a 'gift' of hand and eye coordination to swing a bat making contact with the ball, but end up playing first base because they're lousy fielders. Or, how about the 'pure shooter' in basketball who can't go to the hole, or play defense, or the opposite player who only can play defense and can't shoot at all.

With regard to Bruce Lee, he was indeed very gifted. However, having seen him train and workout, I don't consider him having been anymore 'natural' than a Frank Trejo, Lenny Ferguson, or Frank Wilson. Frank Trejo was a 'natural' who could 'fight' in any venue you might choose and win. Frank Wilson was the fastest person I have ever seen in my life hands and feet with untold natural ability. (yes, faster than Bruce Lee) I recruited Lenny Ferguson out of my old "Wah Que" studio and he too had natural 'gifts.'

What did make Bruce unique was his intelligence, and willingness to set everything else aside and train like a mad man with a maniacal focus and ignore other facets of his life. Anyone with physical gifts who does the same will probably achieve similar results.

My point is a simple one; The personal drive to train coupled with some physical gifts it what set Bruce apart. Not some 'natural' talent that tranlated to all aspects of the many facets of the arts in my opinion.

 

[Danjo]

Certainly some have more physical gifts than others, but as far as 'naturals' go, some may be gifted in one aspect but lousy in others. This is more likely the case with all humans. If you are talking about a singular, or a few particular movements, there are lots of 'naturals.' But overall this trait would be beyond rare.

Some may have a 'gift' of hand and eye coordination to swing a bat making contact with the ball, but end up playing first base because they're lousy fielders. Or, how about the 'pure shooter' in basketball who can't go to the hole, or play defense, or the opposite player who only can play defense and can't shoot at all.

With regard to Bruce Lee, he was indeed very gifted. However, having seen him train and workout, I don't consider him having been anymore 'natural' than a Frank Trejo, Lenny Ferguson, or Frank Wilson. Frank Trejo was a 'natural' who could 'fight' in any venue you might choose and win. Frank Wilson was the fastest person I have ever seen in my life hands and feet with untold natural ability. (yes, faster than Bruce Lee) I recruited Lenny Ferguson out of my old "Wah Que" studio and he too had natural 'gifts.'

What did make Bruce unique was his intelligence, and willingness to set everything else aside and train like a mad man with a maniacal focus and ignore other facets of his life. Anyone with physical gifts who does the same will probably achieve similar results.

My point is a simple one; The personal drive to train coupled with some physical gifts it what set Bruce apart. Not some 'natural' talent that tranlated to all aspects of the many facets of the arts in my opinion.

Thanks Doc. That was a very good answer. It fits with my experience also. There seem to be people that pick things up very quickly and then do them very well, but it still took them time to develop into what they became later on. Bo Jackson was very versatile and very talented but he wasn't the best at either sport he played. Michael Jordan was, IMO, the greatest basketball player that ever stepped on the court (appologies to Dr. J), but it still took him a while to get there. And he never could play baseball very well.

 

[marlon]

Consider my comments about kicking and the multiple mechanisms and postures necessary to perform them correctly without injury. I too like you sir, demand everything is performed correctly. Once a student asked me if I was too demanding. I told him that if a technique requires 10 things to be most efficient, but in the process of applying them in stressful reality you screw up 5, you can still survive and be effective. However if in training I only demanded 5, and you easily screwed up 3 or 4, than you got nothing.

As an example, when all of the mechanisms are in play, if you were to charge to grapple with one of my students in the midst of performing a roundhouse kick, you would not knock him off his feet or balance. He would either complete the kick, or bounce back into a strong stance.

There is an obssesion with speed in most people. Wanting to be fast is normal, expecially in the arts. Somehow Kenpo has acquired more than its share of 'need for speed' over and above basics. This is mostly because 'basics' after the early sixties were never consistently taught by Mr. Parker, instead switching to a conceptual model to allow him freedom of movement between his many schools and students.

Basics require a knowledgeable teacher, pounding and making constant, and sometime small corrections consistently every class. This was physically impossible, so 'basics' died in favor of 'concepts.' Therefore, in general, no one actually knows them at a finite level. Instead the business of kenpo switched to teaching 'self-defense techniques, forms and sets' conceptually over the finite basics needed to support the physical actions.

Students always want to be fast, inspite of the fact in no physical activity do you began learning this way. Every physical activity starts with learning the basic movements slowly and correctly, with speed building a little at a time until the movement is inculcated and 'natural' in execution - except kenpo.

I pick my students carefully, and anyone who does not have the commitment to learn correctly is rejected.

As far as sanchin, there are various versions and rather than step on someone feelings, I'll just generally say the 'knee in' position in male practitioners is acceptable on a limited basis, but requires a compensating drop in height. It is also NOT designed for mobility as some have used it. Dynamic tension of this type can exacerbate other subtle problems with larynx, blood pressure, heart disease, and stroke potential over time.

Marlon, keep doing what you're doing sir. As your knowledge improves pass it on to your students. Do the best you can do, and when you can, do better. The 'idea' is important. Too bad more don't have it.

thank you Sir for the advice and all the help you have given and i am sure will continue to give

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

I almost quit when my first teacher closed her school, because where she used to constantly correct everything ( the angle of my wrist the position of my elbow , my chin, my feet, my wieght distribution...everything during the drill even!!), my second teacher would wait months before correcting things and then tear into you so you felt like you knew nothing! I felt like i was not being taught at the second school, but i adapted and learned that my training was primarily my responsiblility and looked forward to those times when she would lay all my effort to waste and then put it back together again. Many did not like it and hated those times of focused attention...they were for me the next best thing to being tested...and you never knew when it was coming. I still miss my first teacher with the constant corrections and teach more that way myself but i did learn to take responsibility for my own growth.

Respectfully,
Marlon