OP
- Thread Starter
- #21
Great for you OC I hope your delivery in life will be worth a pile of gold after the light go dim........... God Bless You and America
Don't understand
- Thread starter terryl965
- Start date
loki09789
Senior Master
As I said, martial training has always and ever will be about purpose. In your case, I would say that it is a noble one. Keep up the good work. It is amazing how much you can learn from your students when the goals and purposes aren't material driven, it must be very rewarding as well as tough.OC Kid said:
L
lvwhitebir
Guest
OC Kid said:
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "keeping them away from the commercial end of it?" I mean, if you accept money for lessons, you are by definition a commercial school, which I believe is perfectly ok.
There is nothing wrong with charging what you feel passing on your knowledge and experience is worth. Absolutely no shame in it at all. The question is whether others agree that it's worth what you charge and pay it. I'm amazed how many people complain at paying $70 a month for lessons while having no problem paying $50-$80 a month for cable TV. Yes there are egos and shams out there, but there are a lot of good instructors charging high fees as well as low fees. Is one better than the other?
WhiteBirch
OP
- Thread Starter
- #24
Whitebrich we all charge for our services, but that is the end of it,commercial goes beyond charges, you have to understand the other aspect to Mc Dojo's as one reader always say's........ Mc dojo's sell's there souls for a buck, we all have students that are never going to be great nor the best of the best but yet I know instructors that will stroke the parent back just to get more monies from them,I.E. just like all the little leagues out there, football, baseball, soccer, or any other sport out there. A good school will keep teaching those that wish to learn, but we do not bleed them dry with false hopes of grand champions.... God Bless Americalvwhitebir said:
Tgace
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
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Hmmmm...like paintballers fantasizing that they could "take" a SWAT team...SCA people fantasizing that they could have really been Knights...Kendo practicioners living the "Samurai Fantasy"...the list could go on and on. People like the "Ive done all the stuff..so Im as good as" approach to ego building. While at the root of all of it, the roles they want to emulate are more about duty, service and self-sacrifice than about any list of skills or techniques.loki09789 said:
If its about self-defense... teach somebody that if they have to, they can fight. Show them some basic techniques and tactics that will improve the odds of survival...everything else is fine tuning, art or keeping a hold on a paying customer.
O
OC Kid
Guest
Id be more than happy to elaberate on what i called "commercial"
I had a talk with a guy yesterday. he told me he ran his school like a business. what he said was:
He didnt call his school (pick your style) karate/kung fu/ Kempo what ever he called it (city) Martial Arts Academy. because he said during the late 70s when kung fu was big, people would come to his school and ask "Do you teach kung Fu" sure he come on in $, later karate kid came out people would come to his school and ask "Do you teach Karate" $ sure come on in. He'd happily take their money. He'd teach anything they wanted to learn $. He said just getting them in the door was the hard part. The money was made on accessories, He require every safety device made for the students in which he'd happily sell them to the students along with the uniform $, , He would go pick up a book read it and have a weapons class ,or 2-3 different weapons of course they would have to buy the weapons from him to use and pay a additional fee for the class $.
Then he'd have many different belt colors for testing fees $ and buying the belt from him $.
Then when students make a certain rank they can wear a different colored top or bottom or patch which he would sell them $.
After a certain rank , they would have to buy a new gi because people at that rank needed a diffeent color and so on $.
He told me one year He made 50K on accessories alone. That in my opinion is a commericial school.
Another example of a commerical school was at this demo I saw. The students all black/red belts came out and did one form the same form which IMO didnt look very good no balance, power, focus, kiai ect , then they did some kicks and punches, some breaking (1/4"-3/8" thick dried boards) and spent most of their time breaking the boards.
The self defense was horrible but they did have nice uniforms.
I asked about their school and was handed a brouchure that said 95 bucks month to month or 75 bucks on a 6 month contract $. My boy wanted a piece of wood that they were breaking and He asked me to get him one. I told him to go ask the instructor. In fact I told him to go and say " Excuse me Sir, May I have one of the boards." My boy came back empty handed. I asked him what happened. he told me the instructor told him to come to the school and handed him a brouchure $.
After I started teaching my boy before I got the other students, hes 10 I took him to a school up the street(actually he want to go see what it was like) It cost 160 bucks to start + 600 bucks on a 6 month contract $.
My boy only trained with me for 2 months. I asked him what he thought about them. He said "They suck" No power or focus in their punches and their kicks were weaK"
Now not all schools that get paid for teaching are that way. When I moved to Calif from Washington State I trained at 2 different Kempo schools after checking around and seeing what was out there.
Bob Whites Kempo in Huntington Beach I also started take my boy over to
Dave Brocks Kempo karate (one of Bob Whites Black Belts) which I still stop by and work out every now and then (both Bobs and Daves) and always learn something new
American Family Kempo in San Diego. great fighting school in both karate and kick boxing.
They are very very good schools excellent fighters , great caring instructors. The student who train there are getting their moneys worth and are learning not only excellent skills but training in life also.
Basically its like anything else the buyer beware. I hope this helps you define what I mean by "commercial".
Now for my little guys,
what I try to teach the disadvantage kids is a way of life. I tell them constantly (every class) "readers are leaders " and the "more you learn the more you earn" Nothing is free everything comes with hard work and dedication, and discapline. I use examples like Thomas Edison. ill ask the kids "who knows who Thomas Edison is" They will raise theyre hands. Then Ill ask then "what is he famous for" they'll say "inventing the light bulb" Ill ask them do they know how many attempts (experiments) he did till he got it work' they'll guess like most kids do 100-150, Ill tell them no.,It was something like 720,000 experiments till he got it right. They drop their jaws. and Ill tell them He never quit. if you dont you can get anything you want to.
it is rewarding teaching them but they are very undisaplined along with their parents who may or may not bring them to every class which gets me frustrated. But Much like Thomas Edison I wont give up on them.
Plus I am working them on solid basics and fighting/self defense skills. Its a thrill to see a kid who self esteme is in the toilet start building . They are on my sons soccer team and its a rush to see them go after the bigger players on the other teams unafraid because of their confidence.
Sorry for the long winded answer.
I had a talk with a guy yesterday. he told me he ran his school like a business. what he said was:
He didnt call his school (pick your style) karate/kung fu/ Kempo what ever he called it (city) Martial Arts Academy. because he said during the late 70s when kung fu was big, people would come to his school and ask "Do you teach kung Fu" sure he come on in $, later karate kid came out people would come to his school and ask "Do you teach Karate" $ sure come on in. He'd happily take their money. He'd teach anything they wanted to learn $. He said just getting them in the door was the hard part. The money was made on accessories, He require every safety device made for the students in which he'd happily sell them to the students along with the uniform $, , He would go pick up a book read it and have a weapons class ,or 2-3 different weapons of course they would have to buy the weapons from him to use and pay a additional fee for the class $.
Then he'd have many different belt colors for testing fees $ and buying the belt from him $.
Then when students make a certain rank they can wear a different colored top or bottom or patch which he would sell them $.
After a certain rank , they would have to buy a new gi because people at that rank needed a diffeent color and so on $.
He told me one year He made 50K on accessories alone. That in my opinion is a commericial school.
Another example of a commerical school was at this demo I saw. The students all black/red belts came out and did one form the same form which IMO didnt look very good no balance, power, focus, kiai ect , then they did some kicks and punches, some breaking (1/4"-3/8" thick dried boards) and spent most of their time breaking the boards.
The self defense was horrible but they did have nice uniforms.
I asked about their school and was handed a brouchure that said 95 bucks month to month or 75 bucks on a 6 month contract $. My boy wanted a piece of wood that they were breaking and He asked me to get him one. I told him to go ask the instructor. In fact I told him to go and say " Excuse me Sir, May I have one of the boards." My boy came back empty handed. I asked him what happened. he told me the instructor told him to come to the school and handed him a brouchure $.
After I started teaching my boy before I got the other students, hes 10 I took him to a school up the street(actually he want to go see what it was like) It cost 160 bucks to start + 600 bucks on a 6 month contract $.
My boy only trained with me for 2 months. I asked him what he thought about them. He said "They suck" No power or focus in their punches and their kicks were weaK"
Now not all schools that get paid for teaching are that way. When I moved to Calif from Washington State I trained at 2 different Kempo schools after checking around and seeing what was out there.
Bob Whites Kempo in Huntington Beach I also started take my boy over to
Dave Brocks Kempo karate (one of Bob Whites Black Belts) which I still stop by and work out every now and then (both Bobs and Daves) and always learn something new
American Family Kempo in San Diego. great fighting school in both karate and kick boxing.
They are very very good schools excellent fighters , great caring instructors. The student who train there are getting their moneys worth and are learning not only excellent skills but training in life also.
Basically its like anything else the buyer beware. I hope this helps you define what I mean by "commercial".
Now for my little guys,
what I try to teach the disadvantage kids is a way of life. I tell them constantly (every class) "readers are leaders " and the "more you learn the more you earn" Nothing is free everything comes with hard work and dedication, and discapline. I use examples like Thomas Edison. ill ask the kids "who knows who Thomas Edison is" They will raise theyre hands. Then Ill ask then "what is he famous for" they'll say "inventing the light bulb" Ill ask them do they know how many attempts (experiments) he did till he got it work' they'll guess like most kids do 100-150, Ill tell them no.,It was something like 720,000 experiments till he got it right. They drop their jaws. and Ill tell them He never quit. if you dont you can get anything you want to.
it is rewarding teaching them but they are very undisaplined along with their parents who may or may not bring them to every class which gets me frustrated. But Much like Thomas Edison I wont give up on them.
Plus I am working them on solid basics and fighting/self defense skills. Its a thrill to see a kid who self esteme is in the toilet start building . They are on my sons soccer team and its a rush to see them go after the bigger players on the other teams unafraid because of their confidence.
Sorry for the long winded answer.
S
Shinzu
Guest
the best reward is watching a person grow in spirit as well as life. it isn't the money they will remember you by... it's your values!
Flatlander
Grandmaster
The great part about these forums is that they give martial artists from everywhere an opportunity to exchange ideas. The fact that anyone can go through and read all the different threads gives them an opportunity to investigate and follow who the different people are, and whether their values are on the same page, thereby giving them a better chance at finding the quality of training that they are looking for. Whoever came up with this idea has done a magnificent thing for the betterment of all of the Arts. Thank you.
S
Shinzu
Guest
true. years ago you didn't have these resources available to you. you did not have the power to look beyond unless you were willing to spend endless efforts on your quest. things have become much easier making the search for the truth a bit easier.
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
There is nothing wrong with charging money for your teaching. You have a skill and knowlege which is worth something. This is why education is not free.
However, when money becomes the reason for your teaching and your motivation, we have a problem. Don't think the Koreans or other Orientals are above this. America is the land of the almighty dollar.
The Instructors I have no respect for are the ones who charge students for fancy uniforms they don't need, gear they don't need, training plans they don't need, media materials they don't need. and gifts they don't need to buy. Even worse is when the Instructor makes these materials mandatory and available only through him. In America this is called a monopoly and is illegal.
For instance, some teachers tell color belts "As a green-blue-red-yellow belt, you have to buy the uniform with the colored lapel for $50, available through me of course." "You have to buy all the books I've written as part of your curriculum" "You have to buy the special training gear, through me, and I charge what I want." Special uniforms and what-not do not help the student's technique, it just makes the Instructor money.
Again, charging students for class, seminars, testing, or special trips is not a problem. It is charging them for things just to make the Instructor money
I have a problem with.
However, when money becomes the reason for your teaching and your motivation, we have a problem. Don't think the Koreans or other Orientals are above this. America is the land of the almighty dollar.
The Instructors I have no respect for are the ones who charge students for fancy uniforms they don't need, gear they don't need, training plans they don't need, media materials they don't need. and gifts they don't need to buy. Even worse is when the Instructor makes these materials mandatory and available only through him. In America this is called a monopoly and is illegal.
For instance, some teachers tell color belts "As a green-blue-red-yellow belt, you have to buy the uniform with the colored lapel for $50, available through me of course." "You have to buy all the books I've written as part of your curriculum" "You have to buy the special training gear, through me, and I charge what I want." Special uniforms and what-not do not help the student's technique, it just makes the Instructor money.
Again, charging students for class, seminars, testing, or special trips is not a problem. It is charging them for things just to make the Instructor money
I have a problem with.
O
OC Kid
Guest
I concurr. Like I said in a earlier post a instructor who makes his living at teaching is ok. They have to charge with rent/mortgage insurance, pay for thier house, health insurance car insurance, ssn taxes and a whole lot of other stuff they have to charge accordingly. Like I said in my post when its fleecing the students its a entire different issue.
loki09789
Senior Master
Agree all the way MichTKD, there is a reason why those cheesy 'action sunday matinee' movies about rival schools exist. Because such 'prestige battles' did happen and they were rep builders. The 'winner' could brag that they were the top school (even if they cheated, ambushed, brought weapons.... to 'beat' the rival champion/master).MichiganTKD said:
Pride, ego... in America, it is materialistically measured in the cars, clothes,.... all bought by money. But there is just as obvious a measure of an ego/pride focused instructor/student that is present regardless of what exact form the 'cultural collateral' takes because of the "associated with", "deadliest/oldest" or "purist/most realistic" art comments.
I love the conversations with martial artists that turn into promotional speeches for their instructor(s) 'bad ***' rep because of who they beat or who they teach (SEALS/LEO...). I was at a BDay party for a friend who's brother, I just found out, has a long history of martial arts training. It was refreshing to discuss training practices, stylistic differences, goals and purposes with mutual respect and without it turning into a self validating diatribe about how Great his instructors were (which, by association, means he is GREAT by virtue of that instruction) or how much harder he trained than I did.
We have all had conversations that were sharing and open and others that were just polite verbal judo - even if it was the same topic in both. Pride/Rep battling is the difference.
How ever you measure it, I still say it isn't the money or the equiptment or the trappings themselves that are the problem, but the out of balanced focus/attachment to those trappings. Instead of being the product or for teh purpose of improved training these trappings become the 'thing' to have if you want to 'look serious' about training.
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
Exactly. There are some pieces of equipment that are very handy to have: focus mits, air shields, free fighting gear, jump ropes, sandbags, weapons (depending on style) etc.
However, name me one student whose technique improved because they bought the red/blue uniform with the dragon on the back. Name me one student whose technique improved and became a better person because their Instructor is on the cover of Tae Kwon Do Times or Black Belt. other than the fact it satisfies the Instructor's ego.
How does it benefit the student when the Instructor claims 9th Dan in 8 separate styles, other than making the Instructor feel important?
How does it benefit the student or martial arts when an Instructor convinces the student to sign up for a year contract and then takes action when the student decides he/she does not want to practice 6 months later? It is just about lining the Instructor's pocket.
There is nothing wrong with making some money off MA. We all have bills to pay and we have a skill that has a certain value. However, teaching MA should not be about making you rich. My Instructor has spent thousands of dollars of his own money to make sure his students are taken care of: phone calls to other Masters and Grandmasters around the world, trips overseas to meet with his Instructor and TKD colleagues, paying for guest Instructors to judge at testings, paying for meals for judges after testings etc. Has he made money? Yes, but through private business ventures. In the end, he has spent a lot of money but kept his integrity. However, not many people want to put that kind of effort in.
However, name me one student whose technique improved because they bought the red/blue uniform with the dragon on the back. Name me one student whose technique improved and became a better person because their Instructor is on the cover of Tae Kwon Do Times or Black Belt. other than the fact it satisfies the Instructor's ego.
How does it benefit the student when the Instructor claims 9th Dan in 8 separate styles, other than making the Instructor feel important?
How does it benefit the student or martial arts when an Instructor convinces the student to sign up for a year contract and then takes action when the student decides he/she does not want to practice 6 months later? It is just about lining the Instructor's pocket.
There is nothing wrong with making some money off MA. We all have bills to pay and we have a skill that has a certain value. However, teaching MA should not be about making you rich. My Instructor has spent thousands of dollars of his own money to make sure his students are taken care of: phone calls to other Masters and Grandmasters around the world, trips overseas to meet with his Instructor and TKD colleagues, paying for guest Instructors to judge at testings, paying for meals for judges after testings etc. Has he made money? Yes, but through private business ventures. In the end, he has spent a lot of money but kept his integrity. However, not many people want to put that kind of effort in.
O
OC Kid
Guest
Well said
T
TKDman
Guest
terryl965 said:
Lol, how are the martial arts not money motivated? I mean look at all the movies produced over the years in the martial arts genre, not the mention the start it gave many actors. Money will always be the main driving factor behind martial arts. Hollywood just makes up fables of old martial arts masters living on the of a mountain teaching students their otherworldly skills out of the good of their heart. In all truth martial arts has always been just a money maker. Westerners find the concept of dressing up in pajamas and kicking/punching stuff something special......... leading to a multi-million dollar industry.
Brother John
Senior Master
That IS the trick!!!!!!!!!Tulisan said:No. I think personal ego plays a huge role also.
The key is, finding people to train with who are not just money or ego motivated.
:asian:
I'm blessed to have had the good instructors I"ve had, and they're human... not perfect, BUT I've seen others that either were, or studied under, TYRANTS or what I call "In$tructor$".
Those of us with good instructors, count your blessings.
In fact, TELL THEM that you appreciate them and why. It'll do them good!
(like I said, they ARE human)
Your Brother
John
PS: Do this tactfully! NOT the week before your next test or when you have to let them know you don't have the cash yet this month. :uhyeah:
I practise with my friend in my room to improve my skill. Is that money motivated?
I trained for free with a 5th Dan Ninpo guy, so that he could improve his skill (I was far from his ideal training partner, but I was often the only guy who turned up to his class). Where was the money motivation? He was losing money on the room hire. My judo club just manages to balance the books and no more.
I have trained with 'for profit' schools, but often the trainers just wanted a job that allowed them to train as much as possible. Sometimes the trainers make huge profits, but often the training is of a very high quality. Look at the Gracies for example.
I'm not denying that there are mcdojos and MA profiteering, after all it is rife in the entertainment industry as you rightly point out, but for those who train for their own benefit, money is usually is no object, or a secondary object at most.
loki09789
Senior Master
I just heard a new one: Master ChaChing Martial arts.
Right up there with McDojo's, Seminar Samurai, Martial Farsist or Martial "As good as..."ist... all terms affectionately used to describe to problems with some of the motives/goals of martial practice.
I know that through out my practice I have and will be partially motivated by Ego, money, status and other not so noble motives that we can all fall prey to at times. When I was young and in the big 80's Ninja craze, action movies were inspiration - now they are just entertainment. My instructors approval/promotions were big deals for a while, but now that stuff is just an indication of my progress and not the goal. "Winning" at sparring, outlasting the other students in class during exercises, hitting harder than...... all happened, still will, as motivations.
I think the thing that helps keep me centered when the other rewards/reasons/motivations can tempt me down the wrong path is a clear and articultated goal of self defense first.
There is another discussion about student/school contracts that sort of ties into this. I think having a clearly outlined goal (long and short term) is the biggest deterrant to "Ego-Do." Making good character development/practice on the floor a constant goal along with good technical development and fitness are a sound foundation. From there, if the Olympics are your goal have a blast. Self Defense, great. Using MA as a building phase toward Military/LEO training, wonderful....
I think what really matters is shooting for something as a student. Finding a program that fits. If at some point, your goals change or you don't seem to be getting what you expected/wanted from the current practice - change. I can't control the market, instructors.... but I can control my choices and where I go to get my training. The problem with that comes from the social aspect - people stay where the practice isn't a good fit anymore because they have bonded with people in the school. Again, that is a choice and could point to another motivation of MA practice - socialization/sense of belonging.
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with any of these various motivations except when a person let's them shift way out of balance and self validation becomes the primary focus instead of real 'personal improvement'.
Right up there with McDojo's, Seminar Samurai, Martial Farsist or Martial "As good as..."ist... all terms affectionately used to describe to problems with some of the motives/goals of martial practice.
I know that through out my practice I have and will be partially motivated by Ego, money, status and other not so noble motives that we can all fall prey to at times. When I was young and in the big 80's Ninja craze, action movies were inspiration - now they are just entertainment. My instructors approval/promotions were big deals for a while, but now that stuff is just an indication of my progress and not the goal. "Winning" at sparring, outlasting the other students in class during exercises, hitting harder than...... all happened, still will, as motivations.
I think the thing that helps keep me centered when the other rewards/reasons/motivations can tempt me down the wrong path is a clear and articultated goal of self defense first.
There is another discussion about student/school contracts that sort of ties into this. I think having a clearly outlined goal (long and short term) is the biggest deterrant to "Ego-Do." Making good character development/practice on the floor a constant goal along with good technical development and fitness are a sound foundation. From there, if the Olympics are your goal have a blast. Self Defense, great. Using MA as a building phase toward Military/LEO training, wonderful....
I think what really matters is shooting for something as a student. Finding a program that fits. If at some point, your goals change or you don't seem to be getting what you expected/wanted from the current practice - change. I can't control the market, instructors.... but I can control my choices and where I go to get my training. The problem with that comes from the social aspect - people stay where the practice isn't a good fit anymore because they have bonded with people in the school. Again, that is a choice and could point to another motivation of MA practice - socialization/sense of belonging.
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with any of these various motivations except when a person let's them shift way out of balance and self validation becomes the primary focus instead of real 'personal improvement'.
T
TKDman
Guest
Bod said:
I am not talking about your (or me) personal motivation to do the martial arts.
I am talking about the industry itself.
O
OC Kid
Guest
"
loki09789 said:
