Domestic violence

[Steve]

i really cant except that as an answer. i am not saying your wrong, just that it seems that if the abuse ends in a fatality with a knife or a gun how can martial training not be important or help save someones life at that moment?
as i look at martial arts training i will acknowledge that martial arts currently does not really address the issue...but then that leads me to questions,
1...should it ?

I think it does in several ways, but it's also a bit of a chicken/egg thing. Isn't it? I am speculating, but based upon the various threads here on the subject, and what I've read outside the forums, it seems that people who are in an abusive situation seldom seek martial arts training until AFTER a crisis.

But if confidence, a sense of self-worth, assertiveness and a belief that one has the strength to change his or her situation, training in a martial art would certainly help with that, I would think.

2..why doesnt it?
3..is domestic violence something that society at large doesnt like to address and that is why it is ignored in MA ?

I think some aspects are being addressed by some people.

 

[Tez3]

oh Tez lets not muddy the waters....i can only handle one world problem at a time,,,your going to make my head explode.

It's domestic violence, make no mistake. The abusers call it 'honour' killings because they need to justify it. In fact it's no more than the controlling of members of a family or the spouse just as in what is normally called domestic abuse. Don't make the mistake of thinking this is a Muslim 'thing' it's not it happens throughout the world in many different communities even yours. It's on the rise in fact both in the UK and the US, though in the UK the victims are usually taken to India or Pakistan to be killed.
The Horror of 'Honor Killings', Even in US

 

[Touch Of Death]

It's domestic violence, make no mistake. The abusers call it 'honour' killings because they need to justify it. In fact it's no more than the controlling of members of a family or the spouse just as in what is normally called domestic abuse. Don't make the mistake of thinking this is a Muslim 'thing' it's not it happens throughout the world in many different communities even yours. It's on the rise in fact both in the UK and the US, though in the UK the victims are usually taken to India or Pakistan to be killed.
The Horror of 'Honor Killings', Even in US

As much as the women's right people want to call the West a Patriarchy, we need only point to Islam, and say, "There is your Patriarchy". The honor killers are under a lot of pressure to preserve the family name. The West isn't about that.

 

[Steve]

According to the interweb, 20 people are victims of domestic abuse each minute, while an estimate of 12 per year are victims of honor killings in the UK and 20 to 23 in the usa. We are talking about millions vs dozens.

While certainly an important topic, it is also a bit of a red herring. Isn't it?

 

[Touch Of Death]

According to the interweb, 20 people are victims of domestic abuse each minute, while an estimate of 12 per year are victims of honor killings in the UK and 20 to 23 in the usa. We are talking about millions vs dozens.

While certainly an important topic, it is also a bit of a red herring. Isn't it?

Absolutely not. You are going to be seeing a lot more of it, if we get all those refugees, we keep hearing about. So, it is so much a red herring, but a completely different topic, which isn't about domestic abuse, at all.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But would you approach helping a man who is in an abusive relationship with a woman in the same way? Would the same advice, guidance and training help this man?

I have tried the same approach with men who were in similar situations. Women tend to abuse with words. In this case the man feels like the verbal abuse isn't enough reason to leave. Men have the same problem as women in thinking that the behavior is something they can fix or should try to fix. Men may believe that if they do everything that the woman says then she won't complain or put him down. This is just what I've experienced with male family members who have been in abusive relationships. There is always an excuse given for why the woman or man is abusive. A lot of times it seems that they dig in and resist leaving even more.

Second, martial arts training could, I think, help in the moment, when things get physical. But why isn't anyone talking about self defense training?

Because of a lot of this is internal. You only fight back if you think it's your right to fight back. Abusive relationships often are things that wear down a person so that when it's time fight back the victim believes that they are the cause of the problem and therefore do nothing to defend themselves because in their mind it's their fault, or that the abusive person isn't a bad person.

A lot of the physical abuse starts by abusing a person from the inside and working their way up to the actual physical abuse. Think of it like fighting in the ring, even before the physical fight starts there's a mental one that begins. If the person loses the mental battle then its possible that they may lose the physical battle as well. I've talked my way out of fights simply winning the mental battle first and by making my potential attacker doubt that he can win. No matter how well you know your martial arts, if you are afraid of me and feel that I can hurt you with ease, then you are less likely to fight back.

A woman or man is more likely to fight back against someone who is a stranger vs someone who has been verbally tearing them down everyday over many months and years.

 

[JowGaWolf]

honor killings are the worse, because they are born into mind control from day one with the "A woman's place is... " Honor killers is just an excuse to commit murder.

 

[Touch Of Death]

honor killings are the worse, because they are born into mind control from day one with the "A woman's place is... " Honor killers is just an excuse to commit murder.

Islam has duties that each sex is expected to perform in life, yes, but mind control is what all parents perform on their children. The problem is that the parents of Islamic Children are under obligation to hold their children to these standards, and they lose everything if they don't. This worked fine for centuries. Now, the media is luring their children away, and they have a dilemma. They don't call us the great Satan for nothing.

 

[Juany118]

i really cant except that as an answer. i am not saying your wrong, just that it seems that if the abuse ends in a fatality with a knife or a gun how can martial training not be important or help save someones life at that moment?
as i look at martial arts training i will acknowledge that martial arts currently does not really address the issue...but then that leads me to questions,
1...should it ?
2..why doesnt it?
3..is domestic violence something that society at large doesnt like to address and that is why it is ignored in MA ?

The main issue is basically operative conditioning. You could have a champion weight lifter who is a 5th Dan but, often, in a relationship with domestic violence they psychologically do not have the ability to use the strength and/or skill to defend themselves. There are a whole host of factors that go into it but the short form is that the victim is such situations at some point, somehow, was broken down and built back into a person who accepts the violence and rationalizes it. I have dealt with couples where the abuser is arrested time and time and time again but years later they are still together.

The first step in dealing with domestic abuse is really trying to intervene in the psychological dynamics between the victim and abuser. This dynamic doesn't even have to start with the current relationship. I have dealt with people who leave one abusive relationship and enter another. It, sadly, becomes their comfort zone. Until you can intercept that cycle self defense skills don't really come into play.

 

[Steve]

There are about 3.3 million Muslims in the USA right now, and we had a total of 20 to 23 honor killings. I think this is a serious issue, but we are talking about a handful of people in the country, as opposed to the topic of the OP, which is sadly common in both the USA and abroad.

Even focusing too narrowly on homicide runs the risk of missing the forest for the trees, as for every person who is murdered by a partner, male or female, there are literally thousands who are battered or otherwise abused, who are not killed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Islam has duties that each sex is expected to perform in life, yes, but mind control is what all parents perform on their children. The problem is that the parents of Islamic Children are under obligation to hold their children to these standards, and they lose everything if they don't. This worked fine for centuries. Now, the media is luring their children away, and they have a dilemma. They don't call us the great Satan for nothing.

Most parents in western countries give their children perspectives in which a child can adopt it as their own or use their parent's erspective to develop their own perspective and views of the world.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Most parents in western countries give their children perspectives in which a child can adopt it as their own or use their parent's erspective to develop their own perspective and views of the world.

Mind control can be called that, I suppose.

 

[Juany118]

Most parents in western countries give their children perspectives in which a child can adopt it as their own or use their parent's erspective to develop their own perspective and views of the world.

I think you give many parents too much credit. Most that I deal with are, essentially a continuation of their parents who were a continuation of their's etc. Think of kids as being "Smith 2.0" or 3.0, 4.0 etc. It takes a strong kid (or exceptional parents giving children freedom) to be different. If a child grows up in an abusive household they are much more likely to be abused or abusers themselves. It even goes to things as simple as politics or religion. If mom and dad share and express and ideology the kids are much more likely to express the same ideology.

That said I have issues with another theme that has cropped up here, seeing certain labels as monolithic. There is no such thing, on the individual level, as simply "Islam", "Republican", "Christian", "Jew" etc. Not all Muslims place the sexes in specific "role" boxes, no all Republicans believe in privatizing Social Security, not all Christians are against same sex marriage, not all Jews believe the Torah was written by God. We enter very dangerous territory when we start seeing such groups as being monolithic.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think you give many parents too much credit. Most that I deal with are, essentially a continuation of their parents who were a continuation of their's etc. Think of kids as being "Smith 2.0" or 3.0, 4.0 etc. It takes a strong kid (or exceptional parents giving children freedom) to be different. If a child grows up in an abusive household they are much more likely to be abused or abusers themselves. It even goes to things as simple as politics or religion. If mom and dad share and express and ideology the kids are much more likely to express the same ideology.

That said I have issues with another theme that has cropped up here, seeing certain labels as monolithic. There is no such thing, on the individual level, as simply "Islam", "Republican", "Christian", "Jew" etc. Not all Muslims place the sexes in specific "role" boxes, no all Republicans believe in privatizing Social Security, not all Christians are against same sex marriage, not all Jews believe the Torah was written by God. We enter very dangerous territory when we start seeing such groups as being monolithic.

This is the same thing that I was talking about when I say that parents give kids perspectives. Kids can choose to accept it or they can choose to be different.
Much of the behavior that you speak of comes from kids accepting the perspectives of the parent based on what they see or experience. Very few parents will directly teach their child to be abusive. But an abusive parent creates a perspective when he beats his wife in front of the child. The child will either choose that perspective or use that perspective to be different from the parents. My choice of not smoking is built based on my perspective of smoking and watching family members die from cancer. I wasn't brained washed not to smoke.

Just as there are people who choose to not abuse even though they were abused. They weren't brained washed not to abuse. They used their personal perspective of being abused to decide if they will follow or be different. As for religion I never gave a religious label for "honor killing." The concept is not specific to one culture. Regardless of geography and culture, honor killing has always been an excuse. If my child or wife displeased me then kill it. It's never if my husband displeased me then kill him.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Keep in mind that it's common to have people who were abused to create and support organizations that help abuse victims. In terms of kids, most will follow the behavior of parents not because they are brainwashed but because that is what they are always seeing. If parents don't spend time with a child then that child will follow the closet parent figure available.

 

[Touch Of Death]

This is the same thing that I was talking about when I say that parents give kids perspectives. Kids can choose to accept it or they can choose to be different.
Much of the behavior that you speak of comes from kids accepting the perspectives of the parent based on what they see or experience. Very few parents will directly teach their child to be abusive. But an abusive parent creates a perspective when he beats his wife in front of the child. The child will either choose that perspective or use that perspective to be different from the parents. My choice of not smoking is built based on my perspective of smoking and watching family members die from cancer. I wasn't brained washed not to smoke.

Just as there are people who choose to not abuse even though they were abused. They weren't brained washed not to abuse. They used their personal perspective of being abused to decide if they will follow or be different. As for religion I never gave a religious label for "honor killing." The concept is not specific to one culture. Regardless of geography and culture, honor killing has always been an excuse. If my child or wife displeased me then kill it. It's never if my husband displeased me then kill him.

Unless of course, she does, for her own sake,

 

[Touch Of Death]

This is the same thing that I was talking about when I say that parents give kids perspectives. Kids can choose to accept it or they can choose to be different.
Much of the behavior that you speak of comes from kids accepting the perspectives of the parent based on what they see or experience. Very few parents will directly teach their child to be abusive. But an abusive parent creates a perspective when he beats his wife in front of the child. The child will either choose that perspective or use that perspective to be different from the parents. My choice of not smoking is built based on my perspective of smoking and watching family members die from cancer. I wasn't brained washed not to smoke.

Just as there are people who choose to not abuse even though they were abused. They weren't brained washed not to abuse. They used their personal perspective of being abused to decide if they will follow or be different. As for religion I never gave a religious label for "honor killing." The concept is not specific to one culture. Regardless of geography and culture, honor killing has always been an excuse. If my child or wife displeased me then kill it. It's never if my husband displeased me then kill him.

But this speaks to the cycle of abuse. If a parent chooses not to be as harsh as their parents were, they risk creating a monster, and the cycle continues the next generation up.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But this speaks to the cycle of abuse. If a parent chooses not to be as harsh as their parents were, they risk creating a monster, and the cycle continues the next generation up.

Very true. Being harsh and abuse are 2 different things. As an adult many of the things I thought were harsh as a child weren't harsh at all.

 

[Juany118]

This is the same thing that I was talking about when I say that parents give kids perspectives. Kids can choose to accept it or they can choose to be different.
Much of the behavior that you speak of comes from kids accepting the perspectives of the parent based on what they see or experience. Very few parents will directly teach their child to be abusive. But an abusive parent creates a perspective when he beats his wife in front of the child. The child will either choose that perspective or use that perspective to be different from the parents. My choice of not smoking is built based on my perspective of smoking and watching family members die from cancer. I wasn't brained washed not to smoke.

Just as there are people who choose to not abuse even though they were abused. They weren't brained washed not to abuse. They used their personal perspective of being abused to decide if they will follow or be different. As for religion I never gave a religious label for "honor killing." The concept is not specific to one culture. Regardless of geography and culture, honor killing has always been an excuse. If my child or wife displeased me then kill it. It's never if my husband displeased me then kill him.

On the last part I wasn't referring to you, it was said at one point by someone (paraphrase) "Islam sees..."

As for the first part, the problem is that perspective/perception (psychologically) = reality. So unless a child has an opportunity to experience different perspectives, in general, the default is what they see at home. As an example one would expect that children who grow up seeing violence in their home would say "that won't be me" because as a society we see domestic violence as wrong but the statistics show us that such children are actually more likely to grow up to perpetrate some sort of abuse (physical or psychological) or enter relationships where they themselves are abused. Yes some people can break these cycles, sometimes for good sometimes for ill. My only point is to say that seems to be the exception more than the rule.

 

[Tez3]

As much as the women's right people want to call the West a Patriarchy, we need only point to Islam, and say, "There is your Patriarchy". The honor killers are under a lot of pressure to preserve the family name. The West isn't about that.

Whoa! You are very, very wrong. It's not an 'Islamic' thing at all. It only stopped being a separate charge which meant you could plead not guilty in Italy in 1981 however these honour killings still happen several times a years. In 2006, Bruna Morito was shot six times in the face by her brother for bearing a child outside marriage. In Brazil, men could be acquitted for murdering their wives up until 1991, and there have been 800 recorded such murders in a single year. Even in 1991, a lower court ignored the ruling of the Supreme Court and acquitted Joao Lopes for the double homicide of his wife and her lover. the It happens in Christian families, Sikh, Hindu and other non religious homes. That's why I brought it up, it's not something that is happening 'over there somewhere' it's happening around us. Fathers beating daughters up for having the 'wrong' boyfriend...think interracial or inter religious relationships, think of gay people who are beaten up. Domestic abuse under another name.
No, it's not a Muslim thing, it's not them it's us too.