Domestic violence

[hoshin1600]

last night i happened to find out my aunt who passed away a few years ago was a victim of domestic violence and it was her husband that shot and killed her then turned the gun on himself.
she was originally married to my uncle but he had passed away of a heart attack back in the 80's she had remarried and the family had lost track of her. then someone had made contact and her and her new husband started to show up at Christmas family gatherings. i knew she had passed but i didnt know why or how until last night when i was talking to a cousin.
as an instructor of self defense i am now wondering how anything i teach could have helped someone in her situation. at the moment i feel that somehow self defense would not apply to a domestic situation but that just feels wrong and incomplete. i had a student many years ago when i was a karate teacher that was abused by her husband. we never spoke about it directly but it was known. she really changed the way i approach self defense and my own path has become more about self defense because of our interactions. but now all these years later i still feel that what i do is still not applicable to a domestic situation.
am i right ? how do others feel their martial arts training or teaching applies.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah pretty much. Because the self defence option is just so nuts in that circumstance.

There is no normal environment where training to defeat a loved one makes sense. I mean if you have gotten to that point you leave them you don't bash them.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Part of the problem with domestic violence, is that we only see one sex as the perp, and one sex as a victim. Just as we need to teach little boys, not to rape, we need to teach little girls not to hit boys; because, eventually, boys will hit back, and that is when people get hurt.

 

[hoshin1600]

The thing is self defense is somtimes expanded to self protection. Like I said I have had students who were training in a martial arts program because of it. I am sure many others have too without the teachers knowledge of their situation. It would seem reasonable to know how to address this issue.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The thing is self defense is somtimes expanded to self protection. Like I said I have had students who were training in a martial arts program because of it. I am sure many others have too without the teachers knowledge of their situation. It would seem reasonable to know how to address this issue.

They are paying you to teach the fighting part; so, it is understandable. However, you also need to speak to them about what is, and what isn't ok. A big part of Self Defense is knowing when you are putting yourself in a self defense situation.

 

[jks9199]

Domestic violence is a very complicated subject. It's late, I'm tired, and I'm not going to go into great depths. In very brief, there's a lot to consider; there's a cycle of abuse, apology, romance, leading back to abuse. There are codependent issues, even issues of actual being in control by being able to trigger an abusive action...

So... what can a martial arts teacher do? Learn the signs of domestic abuse. Recognize them, and report it when appropriate, to the appropriate authorities. Offer a safe haven and have a list of referrals so that you can offer them support when they need it.

You can offer self defense classes at local domestic abuse shelters, too. Some will take you up on it; some won't.

 

[Buka]

Sorry for your loss, Hoshin.

Tough subject. The problem, and the solution, goes far beyond the defense of one self. It's never a matter of just defending oneself and the problem is over, as might be the case in an ambush. Usually, the victim has to take up roots, move, maybe change jobs or get one, end the life that they knew and get different authorities involved. It's something that seems so daunting, so impossible, it can overwhelm. That's why they stay.

I do not believe the matter of domestic violence ever goes away, in that, the man learns his lesson and doesn't do it again. There are two types of men, those that abuse and those that do not. There's probably exceptions, but I've never seen them. Not ever.

I wish I had some advice that I felt comfortable putting in print. I do not.

 

[Headhunter]

Best thing to do tell them to call the cops. Teaching them self defence probably isn't the best in the long run for them because if a relationship has gotten that bad. The person getting abused is probably not going to leave. So if the aggressor attacks their partner and the victim uses self defence that'll just make the aggressor do something even worse next time like use a weapon. Anyone who abuses their partner is a bully who does because the victims weaker physically than them if they see the victim knows how to handle it they'll step up the aggression to get the upper hand so best option someone tells you they're getting abused tell them to call the police if they won't do it you call them yourself. I don't care if it's a breach of a teachers confidentiality or whatever it seriously pisses me off when you see priests refuse to call the police on murderers because of their code or whatever screw that my code is dont let scum get away with being scum.

 

[Tez3]

My martial arts has little to do about domestic abuse however as a Girl Guide leader taking girls and young women aged from 5-26 we work tremendously hard to encourage, teach and inspire them to be confident young people. This includes being confident in themselves with their bodies and with their relationships so that that feel they can either walk away from a violent relationship or not get into one to start with by recognising the signs of a controlling partner. As the worlds' largest girls charity violence of all sorts concerns us and we have campaigns on this as well as other ideas and subjects. We believe that we have to make the changes we need, we campaign nationally and internationally as well. If we can help prevent violence to women ( yes I do know that domestic violence is not just towards women) then we have to do everything we can.
there is a lot of resources on this site, our world site which might be of use. Search Results

 

[JowGaWolf]

Domestic violence is more of an inner issue than an external issue and by that I mean, that women and men usually see the signs of violent behavior but choose to ignore it or deny it's as bad as it is. This mindset more than anything else seems to be what keeps the person in the relationship. One of the common things that the person would do is validate why their spouse or significant other is beating them. In other cases the person may feel weak, hopeless, or have too much fear to escape. We understand Fight or Flight tendency but we rarely speak of the tendency to freeze, which causes people to do nothing about actively addressing the situation.

Low self confidence and self doubt in these situations also cause the person to stay in the relationship longer than they should. The other type of personality that I'm aware of, are those people who think they can "turn someone around" and "fix them" so they can be a better person.

Domestic Violence is often a 2 problem issue where it's not just the abuser that's the problem, but the victim may have personal weaknesses that prevent him or her from getting out of a bad situation. In the event that it's not a personal weakness, it may be a financial one, where the abuser financially handicaps the victim which in turn starts to breed some of those other issues.

When it comes to self-defense, I never put my safety in the hands of another person. Assuming and hoping that someone who is attacking me will change and give me mercy is an example of someone putting their safety in the hands of another person. Personal safety is something that the individual must control.

The one thing that I always talk about in self defense classes and in my martial arts classes is that we always have to control the situation. By controlling the situation I mean deciding what happens next to the best of one's ability. It doesn't mean that I try to boss my attacker around, it just simply means that I act in a way that will allow me to either end the threat or to get out of a situation with the minimum amount of harm. One domestic abuse starts that person should always be viewed as an attacker even when they aren't physically attacking. Once this is first recognized or even "shows up" as concern, then the goal should be to get out. Getting out of the situation means getting out. It doesn't mean delaying it for one day and then hope it doesn't come back the next day. Even if that person cares, and wants to help the other person, they need to do it from the outside and through a 3rd party and never directly.

I've known people and have had family members who have been abused and the one thing that they had in common is that they felt that they could make the person less abusive or cure the person from that behavior. The other thing that I notice is that the abusive person tends to get into relationships with people who they know they can abuse. So the significant other is actually being picked for the main reason of abusing that person.

The only real thing that I've seen as a solution is that a woman or man has to love themselves above everything else. It sounds selfish but it's the only way to find value in oneself that is independent of all of the other material and emotional things that we use mark value in a person's life. I've seen women who could physically defend themselves fail to do so simply because they didn't place enough value in their own well being. You can probably ask these 2 questions.
1. What do you do in life that makes you feel valuable.
2. If you were in the desert by yourself, then what makes you feel valuable.

At the most the answer to #2 should be as close to #1. In my case, the answer for # 1 is that I consider myself as a good person that should be treated with respect, and if it came down do it, then it's better to have a good person on the planet then a bad person.

My answer for #2 is. The same as #1 replacing "treated with respect" with the right to live and thrive. If a good person lives and thrives then that person can do more good.

Both of these answers are reflective of how I see myself and that I don't attach myself to material items that define status. When people start to define their value as what they do for others then there could be a risk of not being able to get out of a relationship that turns abusive. Especially if how they value themselves ties closely into the person that is abusing them.

Once the inner characteristics are handled then the physical self defense becomes an option. The unfortunate part about dealing with the inner characteristics is that Martial Arts instructors are probably the wrong people to handle things like that. But bringing in someone who understands the mind and self-esteem issues on that level to speak to students could be part of the solution.

Hopefully this will help or provide some ideas.

 

[Tez3]

The only real thing that I've seen as a solution is that a woman or man has to love themselves above everything else. It sounds selfish but it's the only way to find value in oneself that is independent of all of the other material and emotional things that we use mark value in a person's life. I've seen women who could physically defend themselves fail to do so simply because they didn't place enough value in their own well being

Absolutely, which is why in Guiding we work with the girls to try to make sure they have the sense of worth that means they have the confidence in themselves and their relationships. As you also said abusers are drawn to those they can abuse, by trying to make young women confident and assertive they are no longer the targets of that type of abuser.


I am aware that it's not only women are abused and they can be the abusers but I'm also aware that I can only help where I can, I can't take on more than that.

 

[Juany118]

Martial arts training really can't address domestic violence. Domestic violence is NOT about violence, it's about power and control. Physical violence typically only rises when the aggressive party feels they have lost control somehow, somewhere.

Because of this, in a situation like hoshin's family has encountered, it is the culmination of years of abuse. The abuse overtime can break down the strongest of people, even people trained to deal with such trauma. One of my best friends, who is a Licensed Clinical Sociologist who runs a Batterer's program, one of the strongest women I know and she was in an abusive relationship for a time. She is free now and the guy she is with was great but there were more than a few nights I remember sitting with her even after she left having to "talk her down" from feeling guilt over leaving the ******* who she should have left 10 years earlier.

It's a mess with no easy answers and it sucks, a lot.

 

[jks9199]

I do not believe the matter of domestic violence ever goes away, in that, the man learns his lesson and doesn't do it again. There are two types of men, those that abuse and those that do not. There's probably exceptions, but I've never seen them. Not ever.

I take a bit of exception to the phrasing here. Abusers can be men or women; my first domestic arrest was the wife who'd thrown a frying pan at her husband (who had done nothing wrong in any interpretation) and shattered his elbow. The stereotype of domestic abuse is lower class, man beating his wife. The truth is domestic abuse -- even limiting it to physical abuse, rather than including emotional or psychological abuse -- crosses all socioeconomic lines, and that the abuser may be male or female.

 

[Buka]

I take a bit of exception to the phrasing here. Abusers can be men or women; my first domestic arrest was the wife who'd thrown a frying pan at her husband (who had done nothing wrong in any interpretation) and shattered his elbow. The stereotype of domestic abuse is lower class, man beating his wife. The truth is domestic abuse -- even limiting it to physical abuse, rather than including emotional or psychological abuse -- crosses all socioeconomic lines, and that the abuser may be male or female.

No argument, there. Know some myself.

 

[Steve]

Several unrelated thoughts on this.

First, seems like the problem may span many demographics, but how to address it will vary significantly. I mean, there are some things that can be done to help women. I've read many very educational threads on this forum on the subject from people whom I would consider "expert" in the field.

But would you approach helping a man who is in an abusive relationship with a woman in the same way? Would the same advice, guidance and training help this man?

It also seems like socio-economic factors would impact what training is provided, along with knowing whether drugs/alcohol are involved, if there is are any health issues (physical or mental), whether kids are involved, and a host of other factors.

Second, martial arts training could, I think, help in the moment, when things get physical. But why isn't anyone talking about self defense training?

Third, I think Tez3's points are spot on with regards to abuse of women by men, and I wish we had a scouting program in my area that was as strong as what they seem to have. My oldest daughter was a Brownie for a while, and our experience wasn't all that positive. My youngest daughter joined the Brownies last year, and we'll see how it goes. Regardless, U agree competely with her points about providing the guidance and mentorship that promotes strong, confident, young women.

 

[hoshin1600]

Martial arts training really can't address domestic violence.

i really cant except that as an answer. i am not saying your wrong, just that it seems that if the abuse ends in a fatality with a knife or a gun how can martial training not be important or help save someones life at that moment?
as i look at martial arts training i will acknowledge that martial arts currently does not really address the issue...but then that leads me to questions,
1...should it ?
2..why doesnt it?
3..is domestic violence something that society at large doesnt like to address and that is why it is ignored in MA ?

 

[hoshin1600]

Domestic violence is NOT about violence, it's about power and control

the same can be said for the rapist and often the cereal killer. both of these i am well versed on. i feel there is a spectrum of violence and the domestic abuser and the cereal rapist and killer are not that far off from each other. the point of contention with martial arts being of help is that the victim has voluntarily stepped into the predators circle (albeit unknowingly) and with any other category it is the predator that stepped into the victims circle.

 

[Tez3]

3..is domestic violence something that society at large doesnt like to address and that is why it is ignored in MA ?

I don't think it is ignored in martial arts.
Women's Self Defence
Krav Maga teaching Aberdeen women to fight back against violence

These are just two of many I found online.

There is however another issue that is causing a great deal of worry about here, that of honour killings. BBC - Ethics - Honour crimes

 

[hoshin1600]

Best thing to do tell them to call the cops.

from everything i have read and the very little i know. this does not work and usually makes it worse.
need help from the system as well as abuser

"He grabbed me by the arm and slammed me so hard against the bathroom sink.....He then proceeded to slam me up against the shower door my head bouncing off the glass......I picked up the only thing that was there, which was a coffee cup and hit him in the face so I could get away from him....
The sheriffs came out and I was arrested for assault with a deadly weapon, which is a felony......my husband had no intention of bailing me out and in fact extended the restraining order another 30 days.......when I was released from jail with no shoes, no wallet and no phone. .......i was trying to find a womens shelter ...I either didn't qualify because I didn't have kids, they where full or because I wasn't in the same county where the incident occurred.....I tried to get a sheriff escort to my home to retrieve the most important things. Like my identity, which included my social security card, resumes, (she had lost her job because of the abuse and time missed) contact numbers. My whole life was in a file box. The clothes and all those things where in sequential. However, the sheriffs office stated they did not assist in these matters and that I would have to hire an attorney or a process server. My spouse told the neighbors that if I didn't have a sheriff escort he would have me arrested on the spot. So at this point I am totally screwed and the only way I could stay and fight my case was to go back to jail....."

its not an easy answer. i can totally understand why people stay in the relationship, the abuser has overtime set all of the controlling factors in his favor.

 

[hoshin1600]

There is however another issue that is causing a great deal of worry about here, that of honour killings. BBC - Ethics - Honour crimes

oh Tez lets not muddy the waters....i can only handle one world problem at a time,,,your going to make my head explode.