Does taekwondo needs cross-training to complete it

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by terryl965, Mar 25, 2010.

  1. terryl965

    terryl965 <center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR

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    This was brought up by Dancingalone for Gorilla so let discuss this ok.


    What cross training do you believe in to make TKD complete?
     
  2. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    :)

    Oh, I expect we'll get the usual 'TKD is a complete art if taught properly' remarks, so let's dispense with that red herring entirely.

    I suggest people post their curriculum up to first dan. Most of us have rank requirements in electronic form. Just copy and paste that bad boy and then we can have hopefully a meaningful discussion.
     
  3. OnlyAnEgg

    OnlyAnEgg Senior Master

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    TKD is a complete art, if taught properly.
     
  4. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Thanks! You made my day and hopefully Gorilla's too. :)
     
  5. terryl965

    terryl965 <center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR

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    I can and will post mine later it is on my computor at the school and I do not know how to get it from this one, my wife does but not me.

    And for the record TKD is a complete sport I mean Art..[​IMG]
     
  6. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Back in my day (Pre-Olympic) “real” TKD it didn't need anything.... but I have been away for a very long time... did somebody lose part of it someplace :confused:
     
  7. terryl965

    terryl965 <center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR

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    Yes it was lost between a rock and the sport, now it is just lying there waiting to be a top notch piece of the MA pie once again.
     
  8. Cirdan

    Cirdan Senior Master

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    Yup, thrown out with the bathwater and replaced with a double dose of mumbo jumbo.
     
  9. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Depends what you mean by "Complete". Complete for what or in what sense?

    Many systems favor striking over grappling or vica versa or may be incomplete in that sense.

    Many arts have sparring rules and if only sparring is concentrted on may be incomplete from a combat sense.

    Many arts focus on no weapons or few weaposn and would be viewed as incomplete in that sense.

    So, since TKD is primarily weaponless striking do we add:

    More standup grappling

    More ground grappling

    Combat tactics

    Weapons ranging from a 4 inch Yawara / Kubotan stick increasing in inch increments for various Kali sticks thru 6 foot poles; and

    Sai, Knives of variuous shapes and lengths, Tonfa, Kama, Nunchucks, 3 section staff, thrown projectiles, Whips, chains, Spears, Swords, Bow and arrow, crossbow, Guns of all types, How to apply and administer poison or toxic chemicals seperately or in conjunction with weapons.

    Feel free to ad to the above list to make a "Complete" martial art.
     
  10. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Firstly which TKD are we talking about:
    A. the foot fighting sport where competitors who are too timid for kyokushin pad up and throw high kicks while leaning backwards with their hands down or B. the martial art that was derived from Shotokan karate?

    If A, then crossing it is kind of pointless, though I think that the WTF rule makers should go watch Best of the Best. If WTF taekwondo looked like that, then it would have no image problems. Or go watch a kyokushin tournament. That will open their eyes.

    If B, then I am going to have to say that it does not need to be cross-trained in anything. No art will ever be truly complete, so trying to make it complete is, in my opinion, counterproductive.

    The best thing for B is to jettison the WTF sparring entirely. It is not taekwondo. It does not resemble taekwondo. It should be called something else.

    Secondly, teach complete bunhae, develop a sparring rule set geared towards live training in taekwondo techniques (you know, all those things that the sport prohibits) and not towards making a television friendly game.

    Lastly, require all students under fifteen to wear a darned pum belt if they are pum ranked.

    So in short, yes, if taught properly, taekwondo does not need to be crossed with anything else.

    Taekwondo has all of the necessary tools. Problem is that live training is not conducted in 99% if them. Seeing as how padding up is already being done, why not work in those knee and elbow strikes?

    Please note that I am not saying that taekwondo is a fully comprehensive art. I am going on the 80/20 rule. You don't need to be all over the map to be able to defend yourself. You do need to be solidly versed in good, solid basics.

    Obviously, the above is not the direction that taekwondo is going. That is fine and good. I have no beef with the sport. If that is what the orgs and majority of schools want to do, then that is what they are going to do. Those of us who like it will follow. Those who do not will not.

    Daniel
     
  11. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Oh, I don't think it needs to be as nebulous as that, Mr. Weiss. I think most people on forums like MT usually mean effective unarmed combat in all ranges when they talk about a 'complete' martial art. That doesn't mean we have to all be expert at knives, but some worthy elements of self-defense vs. a knife should be expected.
     
  12. Miles

    Miles Senior Master

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    Attached (if I did it right) is my curriculum in .pdf format for white belt through 1st guep:.

    I think TKD is complete as is. But I don't subscribe to the idea that it encompasses weapons, grappling, etc. It is a striking art. If you want to round out your abilities in other areas, training in an art that specializes in that area is best IMHO. Judoka don't kick but they are pretty good on the ground and throwing folks, Wrestlers don't strike but they are fine on the ground as well...
     

    Attached Files:

  13. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Thanks, Miles. You're a good man and a great sport!

    I'm asking this in the spirit of positive discussion with no ill intent at all to anyone: Would you consider your curriculum 'complete'?
    ===================================

    Thanks for answering in your edit!

    You're a KKW man, right, sir? In that case, is it a fair statement to say that your expression of TKD has been trimmed down from an initial larger framework? And that the further back we delve into what TKD is, we would see that it does contain some grappling, locks, pins, and throws?
     
  14. Miles

    Miles Senior Master

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    :) Heaven's NO! It is always a work in progress, like myself.

    As an aside, my program is in a multi-discipline gym. We offer Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Combat Submission Wrestling, Muay-Thai, Savate, Pekiti-Tirsia Kali, Wing Chun Kung-fu, Silat, and probably 5 other arts I've not dabbled in. I think our school is "complete" but I don't look at any of the various arts and believe that that is the "be all, end all." There are many roads up the same mountain, TKD is just the one I've traveled the longest...
     
  15. dortiz

    dortiz Black Belt

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    "Attached (if I did it right) is my curriculum in .pdf format for white belt through 1st guep:."

    Very nice!!! Hoshinsul from lower belts up with Reaps by Blue Belt. Choke defenses and applied in real world circumstance. All around a very nice program. Lucky students!!

    I should have known ; )

    Dave O.
     
  16. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    How do I attach the curriculum as an attachment like Miles did. The posting rules say "May NOT post attachements."
     
  17. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I think you have to be a Supporting Member to post attachments. Copy and paste?
     
  18. OnlyAnEgg

    OnlyAnEgg Senior Master

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    Dancingalone is correct. you could a) copypasta or b) upload it to online storage and link to it or c) become a groovy supporting member. It's cheaper than you might think!
     
  19. FearlessFreep

    FearlessFreep Senior Master

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    Complete at what?

    To me, martial artists study martial arts for one (or more) of 5 reasons.
    1) Art
    2) Self-Defense
    3) Sport
    4) Fitness
    5) Spirituality

    In my mind, TKD is more than complete for 1, 3 , and 4, and doesn't really address 5 at all (although some may interpret it for themselves that way). Leaving only #2 to ask.

    But I think sometimes the question is asked backwards. We tend to ask the question in terms of the techniques, or often the training style, of the art. I think the question should be asked in terms of reasonable threats (and 'reasonable' depends on the person, if you are an average guy living and working in a decent part of town then 'reasonable' means something different than if you are bouncer, or an LEO, or a soldier). Somewhere I once had a list to somebody's site (Abernathy?) that talked about the statistically more common forms of assault. I think if you approach your art and your training not from a point of view of "what techniques do I have?" but from the goal "can I realistically meet these threats?", then you could say that your art is 'complete'. Add to this the idea of weapons (knives and guns and sticks) and some other threats such as being knocked over and sat on, etc.., etc.. If you approach your art to realistically meet these threats, then yes, your art is complete; if not, than no your art is not complete.

    I think the two loaded terms are 'reasonable' and 'realistically'.

    For a middle age father living in middle america, an assault with an AK-47 is probably not a reasonable threat to worry about facing, but in that scenario I don't think many arts are really 'complete' in that arena and it comes down to awareness, reading the situation, and survival more than roundhouse kick or hip throw. So the 'completeness' of your art is a reflection of your ability to realistically meet 'reasonable' threats for your life. Which makes 'completeness' a personal issue.

    The 'realistically' portion is also to be considered. If you do Tae Kwon Do and your response to the question of "how would you do on the ground?" is "sidekick to stop the shoot and stay on my feet" than I don't think you are being honestly realistic with yourself. Which is not to say that Tae Kwon Do could or could not be used on the ground, just to say that you should really approach the threat with a good understanding of what someone fighting in that range can and will do. Crescent kick gun disarm? High-block knife defense? Not really realistic.

    So I think that to consider if your art is complete, at least for self-defense, than you must look at it from the perspective of it's capability, within how you approach it, to meet likely threats.
     
  20. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    I liked the answers of Daniel and Miles about this post, it seems to me they are a well versed men about MA and TKD.

    I think (and sorry for the words) "Traditional TKD" is a balanced MA it has lots of kicks a good number of hand techs and some other techs like trows,sweeps,take downs,pins,and in some cases a little submition. In the other hand the "Sport TKD" focuses only in kicks (foot techs) and some punches and no more, this kind of TKD focuses in competition most of the time.

    I think Traditional TKD does not need cross-training but the taekwondoing can benefit to do crosstraining in for example: Hap Ki Do, or Judo or Aikido.

    Myself, tired of asking more self defense (I never was a competitor and never will) inside my dojang choose to do crosstraining in American Kenpo because there I found what I was looking for.

    So does TKD need cross training?? well all depends.....

    Manny123
     

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