Does Kung-Fu have a poor public image?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I disagree with your first point. Most non-MAs actually DO think the Kung Fu is one art, just like they think Karate is one art. Most folks don't really know there are many arts encompassed by the generic terms Karate and Kung Fu. ...

You said it before I could. Thought stealer!

 

[brianlkennedy]

Let me put this all in historical perspective, and this maybe some comfort, albeit cold comfort. For as far back as we have documentation for, the Chinese publics view of Chinese martial arts has been about 90% hype, nonsense, bulletproof monks, flying swords, qi balls and all the rest.

The distortions of Chinese martial arts are not new, they are not caused by Shaw Brothers movies, idiotic articles in Inside Kung Fu, or the ChiComs with their competition wushu.

Chinese martial arts has, all the way back to the Ming Dynasty, had a huge fantasy element to it and truth be told, Chinese martial arts instructors, who were business men running schools or bodyguard services, played up the fantasy hype and profited from it.

The idea that there was some Golden Past Age in China where martial arts was no b.s., is inaccurate. Chinese martial arts has always had a very large b.s. component. And of course that impacts on the publics view.

So the problem is old. I very much agree with what a number of people have said about not worrying about it too much and just trying to lead your life in a way that puts a good spin on Chinese martial arts. And too, like a couple of guys said, education is a big part of it.

The key point is to stay calm, act dignified like I am in this picture.

just kidding, that is actually Zhong Kuei, the mythic demon catcher. He actually is kind of a good example of the mixed image that Chinese martial arts has in traditional Chinese mentality. On the one hand he was a very good, very brave and honest man. On the other hand his folk stories are full of magic swords, magic charms, flying through the air and all the rest of the nonsense.

Take care,
Brian

 

[jks9199]

I think the military arts in any culture get glorified and exagerated in different ways. You can see it in the romance of the Age of Chivalry in the West; the truth is that most knights weren't "noble gentlemen of virtue" any more than the samurai were some sort of quasi-monk serene warrior-sage. Or in the tales of the American West; the life of a cowboy on the range was nowhere near as fun or neat as even Gunsmoke and other radio serials portray it.

We seem to want to glorify the people who spend their lives preparing to fight, and to endow them with some sort of special knowledge or power. It must answer some very deep need in our collective psyche, because the cult of the elite warrior is so pervasive across cultures and continents.

 

[Tames D]

First of all, "kungfu" is not one art and even non-MAists know that much. Second of all, what is the point of stating the obvious? Most MA practitioners are LARPing. If you just complain here you are no different than them so get back to the training hall and prove everybody wrong.

Did I give you the impression that I thought Kung-Fu is only one art? I study one style of Kung-Fu (Gong-Fu). I used Kung-Fu as a general term.

 

[Tames D]

Thanks for the responses people. I apologize if my rant gave the impression that I sit around all day worrying about this stuff, lol.
As usual, my communicative skills are lacking

.

 

[exile]

I think the military arts in any culture get glorified and exagerated in different ways. You can see it in the romance of the Age of Chivalry in the West; the truth is that most knights weren't "noble gentlemen of virtue" any more than the samurai were some sort of quasi-monk serene warrior-sage. Or in the tales of the American West; the life of a cowboy on the range was nowhere near as fun or neat as even Gunsmoke and other radio serials portray it.

We seem to want to glorify the people who spend their lives preparing to fight, and to endow them with some sort of special knowledge or power. It must answer some very deep need in our collective psyche, because the cult of the elite warrior is so pervasive across cultures and continents.

You can see this same thing not only in popular culture, but right here on MT, where it is not usual to run across a post or a thread insisting that the martials arts either confer, or entail, some special ethical wisdom and enlightenment on the part of the practitioner, that the only `true' martial artist are those whose lives are guided by a special moral virtue, or humility, or spirituality, or similar... ideas. And as you say, this picture of the traditional Asian warrior and exponent of martial skills has as much basis in fact as the sanctity of the Grail knights in Mort d'Artur.

Bear in mind, though, that this kind of image served purposes apart from expressing that collective yearning you allude to, jks. It had a very practical benefit for the practitioners: emphasis on the character-building role of karate, for example, was essentially an opportunistic add-on to Itosu's original message to the Japanese Education Minnistry in his 1908 letter which got karate into the Okinawan public school curriculum: Itosu promised them strong young men who would be`each capable of defeating ten assailants... I believe this will be a great benefit to our nation and our military.' Itosu, the father of modern karate, never, in his letter, says one word about morality or ethics: he talks about producing good soldiers. And his student Funakoshi turned this approach to the Japanese authorities into an art form. Look at what Rob Redmond has to say about Funakoshi at his website (http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/01/29/funakoshi-man-vs-myth/):

Before World War II, what the Japanese refer to as the War of the Pacific, Funakoshi’s books had a particular jingoistic ring to them. He supposed that karate training was good for young soldiers to learn to take into battle, and that karate was also good training for conquered people so that they could be disciplined into civilized Japanese citizens....

Redmond backs up this interpretation with citations from Funakoshi's own work, including the observation, rather damning for those who want to cite him as a proponent of `ethical' MAs, that `War is a method which God gave humans to organize the world', and other explicit endorsements of the brutal militarism which Japan was shortly to inflict on the rest of the world. But the fun doesn't stop there by any means, for Redmond notes that

This message is a far cry from his later works in which he protests that there is no initiative in karate (karate ni sente nashi from the Niju Kun) and that karate is the study of peace. It is not too strange that Funakoshi, who might be described as a master politician and even a social chameleon, would so adeptly alter his message to suit American Occupational Authorities after having constructed one that was music to the ears of the Imperial Japanese 20 years earlier...He favored perfection of character as a purpose later in life. He favored disciplining people into good conquered minions of Japan earlier in life.

The message was apparently one that the American administration in Japan wanted to hear, for karate, which had originally been slated to be forcibly suppressed during the demilitarization campaign, was according to Redmond allowed to continue as a result of Funakoshi''s and his students' success in persuading the occupying forces' high brass that karate was pretty much the same thing as Mr. Miyagi was telling us.

Similar things have happened in KMAs as well; Gen. Choi in particular has an interesting track record in utterly unscrupulous hardball TKD politics, which tends to undermine his later pieties about the spiritually and ethically uplifting objectives of TKD.

So you can't leave out cynical self-interest and self-serving posturing when it comes to this picture of MAs as vehicles for spiritual sanctity and the rest of the bogus line that popular culture depictions of them regularly feed us. As I say, I don't need to remind anyone that if we see the same kind of cant solemnly pronounced by MAists right here on MT... you can bet that people who don't actually have any firsthand knowledge of the arts are going to be happy buying the particular MA version of the Brooklyn Bridge that both Hollywood and cynical MA entrepreneurs are selling us at a special discount price...

 

[Flying Crane]

ya know, sometimes I find myself getting all worked up when people make foolish judgements based on ignorance about an art. I think, "we gotta show 'em!" or "we gotta educate 'em", and "we can't let the world think this about our art!"

But then, sometimes, i sort of think, "let 'em be ignorant, let 'em think it's no good." Sometimes secrets are best kept close, and only shared with those who matter.

'Cause if the poo hits the fan, it puts me in a better position if they think I've spent all my time practicing something worthless...better yet: don't even let them know I train at all.

Don't show your cards until the dealing and the betting are done. Then you show them what five aces looks like...

 

[jks9199]

You can see this same thing not only in popular culture, but right here on MT, where it is not usual to run across a post or a thread insisting that the martials arts either confer, or entail, some special ethical wisdom and enlightenment on the part of the practitioner, that the only `true' martial artist are those whose lives are guided by a special moral virtue, or humility, or spirituality, or similar... ideas. And as you say, this picture of the traditional Asian warrior and exponent of martial skills has as much basis in fact as the sanctity of the Grail knights in Mort d'Artur.

Bear in mind, though, that this kind of image served purposes apart from expressing that collective yearning you allude to, jks. It had a very practical benefit for the practitioners: emphasis on the character-building role of karate, for example, was essentially an opportunistic add-on to Itosu's original message to the Japanese Education Minnistry in his 1908 letter which got karate into the Okinawan public school curriculum: Itosu promised them strong young men who would be`each capable of defeating ten assailants... I believe this will be a great benefit to our nation and our military.' Itosu, the father of modern karate, never, in his letter, says one word about morality or ethics: he talks about producing good soldiers. And his student Funakoshi turned this approach to the Japanese authorities into an art form.

...

So you can't leave out cynical self-interest and self-serving posturing when it comes to this picture of MAs as vehicles for spiritual sanctity and the rest of the bogus line that popular culture depictions of them regularly feed us. As I say, I don't need to remind anyone that if we see the same kind of cant solemnly pronounced by MAists right here on MT... you can bet that people who don't actually have any firsthand knowledge of the arts are going to be happy buying the particular MA version of the Brooklyn Bridge that both Hollywood and cynical MA entrepreneurs are selling us at a special discount price...

I wasn't trying to suggest that the only reason for the "creative enlargement" of the martial arts was some sort of collective yearning or need. I'm sure that throughout history there have been people putting false rank certificates or bragging about their prowess in battles that never happened. I don't think that human nature has changed all that much in the last several thousand years...

But I also think that there must be some deeper need than mere individual self promotion fueling the societal glorification of the warrior.

 

[Steel Tiger]

ya know, sometimes I find myself getting all worked up when people make foolish judgements based on ignorance about an art. I think, "we gotta show 'em!" or "we gotta educate 'em", and "we can't let the world think this about our art!"

But then, sometimes, i sort of think, "let 'em be ignorant, let 'em think it's no good." Sometimes secrets are best kept close, and only shared with those who matter.

'Cause if the poo hits the fan, it puts me in a better position if they think I've spent all my time practicing something worthless...better yet: don't even let them know I train at all.

Don't show your cards until the dealing and the betting are done.

Oh, that Flying Crane he's a cunning guy!

You could go the whole hog and train in eye-hurtingly colourful silk outfits and wave your hands meaninglessly, and maybe throw in some Chinese operatic singing. That way anyone who watches the class would get the wrong impression.

 

[MaartenSFS]

Let me put this all in historical perspective, and this maybe some comfort, albeit cold comfort. For as far back as we have documentation for, the Chinese publics view of Chinese martial arts has been about 90% hype, nonsense, bulletproof monks, flying swords, qi balls and all the rest.

The distortions of Chinese martial arts are not new, they are not caused by Shaw Brothers movies, idiotic articles in Inside Kung Fu, or the ChiComs with their competition wushu.

Chinese martial arts has, all the way back to the Ming Dynasty, had a huge fantasy element to it and truth be told, Chinese martial arts instructors, who were business men running schools or bodyguard services, played up the fantasy hype and profited from it.

The idea that there was some Golden Past Age in China where martial arts was no b.s., is inaccurate. Chinese martial arts has always had a very large b.s. component. And of course that impacts on the publics view.

So the problem is old. I very much agree with what a number of people have said about not worrying about it too much and just trying to lead your life in a way that puts a good spin on Chinese martial arts. And too, like a couple of guys said, education is a big part of it.

The key point is to stay calm, act dignified like I am in this picture.

just kidding, that is actually Zhong Kuei, the mythic demon catcher. He actually is kind of a good example of the mixed image that Chinese martial arts has in traditional Chinese mentality. On the one hand he was a very good, very brave and honest man. On the other hand his folk stories are full of magic swords, magic charms, flying through the air and all the rest of the nonsense.

Take care,
Brian

Great post. From what I have experienced myself in my three years here in China is that 99% of it is pure ******** and that even most of the instructors believe their own ********. They are also egotistical.

For example I say to an instructor: Can you believe that other instructor? He said that you could use Qi to levitate if you practise every day for ten years.
Instructor: Yes, that is complete ********. He is completely wrong and my style is better. You can only use Qi to jump onto buildings and over high walls.
Me: ......

But would you say that Chinese military arts were less ******** than those of their civilian counterparts? If you think about it: Who would have better gongfu; monks meditation all day or soldiers that waged war all the time?

 

[Hand Sword]

Personally I hate the image that some people have of my Art. I think the media has done a pretty good job of assisting that image.

The Kung-Fu I know and love is a practical, down to earth, *** kicking fighting system. Not an acrobatic, fly through the air, while defending yourself against 25 armed attackers joke of a circus stunt.

I feel that the general concensus of non martial artists (and some martial artists) is that it is not a serious fighting art. Maybe some of the movies produced are part of the reason? Maybe I'm being sensitive? Maybe I'm wrong?

Anyways, rant over.

I did a thread similar to this awhile back. I think it goes across all of the, I guess what are now called the TMA's. From goofy movies, all the way down to the moron that does the Karate Kid crane stance with the "Waaah!" sound. Through the years something has happened. The arts have gone from the cool, exotic thing to do, to "soccer mom status", where it's for families and kids. Dojos, kwoons etc.. seem to be more child care centers.

 

[Rabu]

Great thread.

Reminds me of a great movie: Strictly Ballroom

If you havent seen this movie, you should. Not only is it hilarious, but also completely in sync with the martial arts community at large. Really.

"Real martial arts" involve engaging at a higher level of commitment, faster, than your opponent and never allowing them to recover.

The fighter who engages at the highest level, FIRST and dominates the opponent will win. There are all kinds of caveats you can add, but this maxim is generally true.

In regards to the advertising aspect of the martial arts and kung fu in specific I have some lament, but only for the people who are unable to seperate reality from fantasy.

Using the term 'LARPing' (Live Action Role Playing) to describe modern practitioners may be accurate, but if they arent thinking that they are learning 'killing military techniques' then there is no harm. As long as the advertisement, the explanation of what is being taught is consistent and honest, then I would say no harm done.

Practice of Chinese Martial Arts as a proper venue for cultural practice seems most appropriate to me. Understanding the venue in which your skills apply is also a key in my opinion.

There are artists out there who claim to be able to use fist techniques to strike at opponents through up to 16 inches of steel! That seems somewhat retarded to me. If you had that kind of skill, the military would have you in some kind of holding cell...with 17 inches of plating between you and the real world.

Its insane claims like that which remove the 'validity' from the practice and create an atmosphere which allows for even bigger tall tales to be used in competition for customers.

Real training is interesting to few people. Learning to FLY?!?!? Dude, I am there!

Best regards,

Rob

 

[exile]

I did a thread similar to this awhile back. I think it goes across all of the, I guess what are now called the TMA's. From goofy movies, all the way down to the moron that does the Karate Kid crane stance with the "Waaah!" sound. Through the years something has happened. The arts have gone from the cool, exotic thing to do, to "soccer mom status", where it's for families and kids. Dojos, kwoons etc.. seem to be more child care centers.

A lot of what's happened over the years is that the explosive growth of the MAs seems to have led to more and more schools fighting over the same number of potential customers, so to survive, more and more of them have had to shift to after-school kids' programs, which is now where a substantial amount of income for many dojos comes from.

Take TKD: nominally huge practitioner base, but how many of those people are seriously training for Olympic-rules tournament competition? And how any of them want really hard CQ self-defense training. So what's a dojang-owner to do? Well, if you offer enough `little tiger' programs and in effect promise parents that studying MAs will keep their kids off drugs down the line, you can actually do quite well in terms of volume. And that's what's happened to many dojangs, and other MAs besides TKD are in the same boat.

But any activity which is known as diversion/maintenance for kids is not going get much in the way of, um, street cred....

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh, that Flying Crane he's a cunning guy!

You could go the whole hog and train in eye-hurtingly colourful silk outfits and wave your hands meaninglessly, and maybe throw in some Chinese operatic singing. That way anyone who watches the class would get the wrong impression.

well, you see, when I "wave my hands meaninglessly", I am actually doing White Crane style and I'm flapping my wings! I'll just start putting feathers all over my costume, and let everyone think I'm nuts!

 

[Jade Tigress]

well, you see, when I "wave my hands meaninglessly", I am actually doing White Crane style and I'm flapping my wings! I'll just start putting feathers all over my costume, and let everyone think I'm nuts!

:lfao:

Sweet.

 

[exile]

well, you see, when I "wave my hands meaninglessly", I am actually doing White Crane style and I'm flapping my wings! I'll just start putting feathers all over my costume, and let everyone think I'm nuts!

And as any subway rider in NY will tell you, even the massive guys with skulls tatooed on their scarred arms and do-rags on their heads will give a wide berth to obvious flat-out nutters riding the late night trains... so good strategy, Michael!

 

[Flying Crane]

And as any subway rider in NY will tell you, even the massive guys with skulls tatooed on their scarred arms and do-rags on their heads will give a wide berth to obvious flat-out nutters riding the late night trains... so good strategy, Michael!

oh, well, I ONLY dress and train this way when I am in the public transportation system. In fact, this is how I get to work everyday. I consider it to be a primary strategy in self-preservation.

 

[Hand Sword]

A lot of what's happened over the years is that the explosive growth of the MAs seems to have led to more and more schools fighting over the same number of potential customers, so to survive, more and more of them have had to shift to after-school kids' programs, which is now where a substantial amount of income for many dojos comes from.

Take TKD: nominally huge practitioner base, but how many of those people are seriously training for Olympic-rules tournament competition? And how any of them want really hard CQ self-defense training. So what's a dojang-owner to do? Well, if you offer enough `little tiger' programs and in effect promise parents that studying MAs will keep their kids off drugs down the line, you can actually do quite well in terms of volume. And that's what's happened to many dojangs, and other MAs besides TKD are in the same boat.

But any activity which is known as diversion/maintenance for kids is not going get much in the way of, um, street cred....

All of it is exactly right and still proves my point. Money ruined everything. The arts, from their origins were never about money. Since that began, for all styles, what has happened and the "reasons why" are what they are. As for "street cred", You're right again, though you're attempting the modern view, almost talking down to that. Remember, the seriousness of real fighting/self defense (the street if you will) was the breeding ground of the old masters and the evolution point from basic meditation practices to what exists and gets commercialised now. Don't hate or try to ignore that phase of the art's development. Besides, in all honestly, your skills better have "street cred" or some competent amount of it, if you seriously expect to be able to defend yourself for real when it goes down.

 

[exile]

oh, well, I ONLY dress and train this way when I am in the public transportation system. In fact, this is how I get to work everyday. I consider it to be a primary strategy in self-preservation.

Can't argue with success, eh? Here you are, still with us and still posting... clearly, your system works. Much better, in my opinion, than a strategy of trying to become invisible... probably a lot of guys who attempted to go that route are no long in a position to admit the error of their ways, I fear...

All of it is exactly right and still proves my point. Money ruined everything. The arts, from their origins were never about money. Since that began, for all styles, what has happened and the "reasons why" are what they are. As for "street cred", You're right again, though you're attempting the modern view, almost talking down to that. Remember, the seriousness of real fighting/self defense (the street if you will) was the breeding ground of the old masters and the evolution point from basic meditation practices to what exists and gets commercialised now. Don't hate or try to ignore that phase of the art's development. Besides, in all honestly, your skills better have "street cred" or some competent amount of it, if you seriously expect to be able to defend yourself for real when it goes down.

No, HS, I meant `street cred'—respect from the general population, including those who are on the street and possibly represent danger to you there—quite literally. The point is that neither amongst the general population nor the much smaller number of potential attackers within that population will you find too many people ready to back off in the face of a MA's credentials these days, as opposed to say earlier phases of the MAs in North America, when training was an almost exclusively adult activity carried out by people who were... basically, zealots about their arts in those days and went at it in the most brutal possible way with members of other dojos over issues of respect (sometimes under the auspices of tournaments and sometimes not. And no, it's not the most sterling example of MA behavior, but before we start getting lectured by those who keep insisting that MAists should be sanctified knights in shining armor, let them remember that the same `doj(o/ang) war' behavior was rampant amongs the first-generation KMA pioneers of the `Original Kwans' and also between Shuri and Naha styles of karate during Itosu's era, and carried out by some of the most reknowned MAists in history). It's just that people will not take you seriously as a fighter if they associate what you do with a kind of gymnastically active babysitting. The deterrence that is your best friend is much harder to maintain given the current trend in MA school membership....

 

[Hand Sword]

Then I think we are saying the same thing (?) If so, sorry about my response post. The street thing is very sensitive to me, though here in the forums it's a punch line term usually. (That shows where I'm from right?-lol!)

Are we still cool?

O.k. Back to the topic of the thread!