Does dojo yaburi really exist?

[Kevin__Huang]

Does anyone know about dojo yaburi?
Dojo Yaburi is when an outsider visit a dojo and ask for a fight with the Sensei.
I think it happen long time ago in Japan.
Does it really exist or not?
If it exist, then does it still happen in modern times?

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[Jaeimseu]

It still happens, occasionally. There are numerous videos on YouTube. I suspect it happens more when there is suspicion regarding a teacher's credentials. The BJJ community seems to take this very seriously. However, I'd guess in most situations it involves sparring, not fighting. If someone came to my school to pick a fight, I'd probably just ask them to leave and then call the cops.


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[drop bear]

We were supposed to have had a guy but he never showed. Some bare knuckle street fighter or something.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

We've had it happen a few times over the years, but to be honest, it hasn't happened in a long time. I've heard stories of it happening numerous times in the 1970's and 1980's, and I remember seeing it half a dozen times in the 80's and 90's. We haven't had anyone come into our dojang for a challenge since then though.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I also remember hearing stories of it happening somewhat frequently back in Korea in the early Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do days. Many times it was between rival schools.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, as this is in the Japanese martial arts section, we might as well bring in a Japanese martial art perspective…

Does anyone know about dojo yaburi?

Yeah, I know something about it.

Dojo Yaburi is when an outsider visit a dojo and ask for a fight with the Sensei.

Not necessarily… Firstly, it might be important to look at exactly what is being referred to, as well as what actually happened.

The term "dojo yaburi" (道場破り) literally translates as "dojo breaking", although it's sometimes rendered as "dojo storming", and refers to a particular action… however, it's sometimes (erroneously) used in place of other, more accepted inter-system engagements, notably taryu-shiai (他流試合), and the lesser-known tame-shiai (試試合).

In simple terms, taryu-shiai is a competition between practitioners of different schools… it might be two, or more systems participating, it might be only a single practitioner of one visiting a different school, or any of a number of other variations. The important thing here is that the competitions would often have the primary aim of defeating the opponents you faced… Tame-shiai, on the other hand, was more a "friendly meeting" (with the caveat that taryu-shiai was relatively friendly as well), with the aim of learning from each other. Sure, there was a competition of sorts in many cases… and yeah, you may get injured or worse… but beating the other guy wasn't as important as seeing what you could learn about yourself and your system. And another usage of the term referred to intra-school competition… matches within a single ryu-ha itself.

Dojo-yaburi, on the other hand, was a far less polite affair… and fairly uncommon. Most of what is discussed as dojo-yaburi actually refers to taryu-shiai, as actual dojo yaburi doesn't reflect well upon the person issuing the challenge or his school (even if successful), and didn't reflect well on the targeted school if they lost. That said, dojo yaburi often involved challenging the school, which might involve challenging the instructor, or might not… you might only challenge a representative of the school.

I think it happen long time ago in Japan.

Well, the term is Japanese, and comes from old accounts from old Japan, yeah… but it is used more as a cautionary tale than something to aspire to.

Does it really exist or not?

As a historical event? Yeah… but not commonly. As a current, modern day event? Not so much… more that people use the term occasionally for actions that are not exactly the same thing.

If it exist, then does it still happen in modern times?

Well, there are accounts of such styled events in the 60's and 70's in the US… but I'd hesitate to classify such things as the same thing. Largely, it was more about people with too much ego, and too little understanding of the terms they were using, but wanting to ape what they felt were the practices of a culture they didn't know or understand. Then again, concepts such as taryu-shiai and tame-shiai could be seen as Japanese precursors to the ideas of the Gracie Challenges, MMA (and the UFC, particularly in it's earliest inception), and so on. So, no, the actual, specific Japanese concept doesn't really happen that much today, but similar things can and do.

 

[Kevin__Huang]

Okay, as this is in the Japanese martial arts section, we might as well bring in a Japanese martial art perspective…



Yeah, I know something about it.



Not necessarily… Firstly, it might be important to look at exactly what is being referred to, as well as what actually happened.

The term "dojo yaburi" (道場破り) literally translates as "dojo breaking", although it's sometimes rendered as "dojo storming", and refers to a particular action… however, it's sometimes (erroneously) used in place of other, more accepted inter-system engagements, notably taryu-shiai (他流試合), and the lesser-known tame-shiai (試試合).

In simple terms, taryu-shiai is a competition between practitioners of different schools… it might be two, or more systems participating, it might be only a single practitioner of one visiting a different school, or any of a number of other variations. The important thing here is that the competitions would often have the primary aim of defeating the opponents you faced… Tame-shiai, on the other hand, was more a "friendly meeting" (with the caveat that taryu-shiai was relatively friendly as well), with the aim of learning from each other. Sure, there was a competition of sorts in many cases… and yeah, you may get injured or worse… but beating the other guy wasn't as important as seeing what you could learn about yourself and your system. And another usage of the term referred to intra-school competition… matches within a single ryu-ha itself.

Dojo-yaburi, on the other hand, was a far less polite affair… and fairly uncommon. Most of what is discussed as dojo-yaburi actually refers to taryu-shiai, as actual dojo yaburi doesn't reflect well upon the person issuing the challenge or his school (even if successful), and didn't reflect well on the targeted school if they lost. That said, dojo yaburi often involved challenging the school, which might involve challenging the instructor, or might not… you might only challenge a representative of the school.



Well, the term is Japanese, and comes from old accounts from old Japan, yeah… but it is used more as a cautionary tale than something to aspire to.



As a historical event? Yeah… but not commonly. As a current, modern day event? Not so much… more that people use the term occasionally for actions that are not exactly the same thing.



Well, there are accounts of such styled events in the 60's and 70's in the US… but I'd hesitate to classify such things as the same thing. Largely, it was more about people with too much ego, and too little understanding of the terms they were using, but wanting to ape what they felt were the practices of a culture they didn't know or understand. Then again, concepts such as taryu-shiai and tame-shiai could be seen as Japanese precursors to the ideas of the Gracie Challenges, MMA (and the UFC, particularly in it's earliest inception), and so on. So, no, the actual, specific Japanese concept doesn't really happen that much today, but similar things can and do.

Wow, I learned so much info from you. Thanks [emoji106]

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[Kevin__Huang]

I also remember hearing stories of it happening somewhat frequently back in Korea in the early Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do days. Many times it was between rival schools.

I thought that dojo yaburi only happened in Japan. I guess I was wrong [emoji20]

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[Kung Fu Wang]

does it still happen in modern times?

Many years ago, after I had opened my "Peishaolin Kung Fu Institute" in Austin Texas back in 1973, I have been challenged by:

- A Kempo instructor (because my school was very close to his school).
- A JKD instructor (he opened a JKD school and needed to build up his reputation).
- A European Judo champion (he knocked on my door and challenged me in my own living room).
- An European kung Fu tournament champion (he challenged me during my workshop in Wilhelmshaven, Germany).
- Many crazy guys (because my school was near by a mental hospital).

The following picture was an ad that I put on Austin American Statement for my summer class back in 1973. For only $20 a month, meet 4 days a week, and 3 hours per class, it was a very good deal by today's standard. It just to show that my MA school did exist. Sorry! When you get old, you will have nothing to talk about but your pass.

 

[pgsmith]

Many years ago, after I had opened my "Peishaolin Kung Fu Institute" in Austin Texas back in 1973, I have been challenged by:

- A Kempo instructor (because my school was very close to his school).
- A JKD instructor (he opened a JKD school and needed to build up his reputation).
- A European Judo champion (he knocked on my door and challenged me in my own living room).
- An European kung Fu tournament champion (he challenged me during my workshop in Wilhelmshaven, Germany).
- Many crazy guys (because my school was near by a mental hospital).

The following picture was an ad that I put on Austin American Statement for my summer class back in 1973. For only $20 a month, meet 4 days a week, and 3 hours per class, it was a very good deal by today's standard. It just to show that my MA school did exist. Sorry! When you get old, you will have nothing to talk about but your pass.

I'll bet your school did very well then, since that was when the TV series was very popular.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'll bet your school did very well then, since that was when the TV series was very popular.

Back then, if you can't kick as high as Brice Lee did, you won't be able to get any students. All people care about was

- breaking, and
- high kicks.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Back to the "school challenge" subject. The personal challenge back then was very popular. I even had my own students who went to train MT for 2 years and came back challenged me. Sometime people wanted to challenge in

- boxing only,
- kick and punch only,
- wrestling only.

I even had someone who challenged me "arm wrestling" in the public.

It should be easier to set up some challenge rules such as:

If your opponent can

- hit you within his first 20 punches, he win, otherwise you win (punching skill and blocking skill challenge).
- block your 1st punch, he wins, otherwise you win (punching speed challenge).
- take you down within 10 second, he wins, otherwise you win (wrestling skill and anti-wrestling skill challenge).
- ...

IMO, the challenge fight can be "fun" and "civilized". It doesn't have to be life or death.

 

[Chris Parker]

Wow, I learned so much info from you. Thanks [emoji106]

My pleasure.

I thought that dojo yaburi only happened in Japan. I guess I was wrong [emoji20]

Well, it's a Japanese term, describing a Japanese concept and historical, cultural activity, so… yeah. As mentioned, much of the idea of "challenging a school" that went on in the West, while similar, wasn't quite the same thing, due to the differences in cultural concepts and so on.

Back then, if you can't kick as high as Brice Lee did, you won't be able to get any students. All people care about was

- breaking, and
- high kicks.

Maybe where you were… I tend to be of the belief that, was that the actual case, nothing I do would have been around for me to study it, so…. maybe not as accurate an image as you may wish to present…

 

[JP3]

It happened to me personally, once, but it was weird. Definitely NOT what I would have pictured, but maybe that was my ... situation.

This guy, seems normal -- no "I'm Going Postal" look or anything -- came into my school, sat down and waited for class to start. Didn't know I was the "Sensei" he was there to... whatever. Have no idea why he didn't know me on sight, the pic is on the website.

We chatted for about a half-hour as he observed the BJJ Class which was ending, and got along great. I asked about his history, past, instructors, etc., and he never did ask about mine. No big deal. I asked if he was interested in the fre week special the school owner has (that's not me, I just run my class there in a sort of partnership thing and my guys/gals & I pay dues like everyone else), and he said, sure, I guess, but I may be here only for one class. I asked why was that, more niave I, and he said he was here to see "what we were all about," which is a standard, non-challenging thing to say, right... This guy was maybe 26, 28 years old, in good shape, and he said he'd been in jujitsu (unknown brand) for about 5 years, was in goju-ryu karate during high school before that, and had "some taekwondo."

I, in my personable manner, asked him what he was interested in aikido for, and he said, "I really am not sure it works, so I am here to see for myself." I asked him why he thought it didn't work, and he said, "Well, it all looks so fake. It can't possibly work the way that it's done." I laughed, which It hink surprised him, and said *no censor here* ," "No ****. Nah... we don't do it the way we do it outside, we want people to be able to come back and train with us. If we break our training partners, we don't HAVe any training partners!" He thought that was funny, too. So, I asked him, "You've got jujitsu, so you've got kotegaeshi in there somewhere somehow, right?" He agreed, so I asked, "and you've probably got shihonage too, right?" Again, agreement.

(Picture two dudes sitting on a bench, in front of the mat where training is going on, talking with their hands...)

I say, OK, what do you think of the shiho, as an effective fight technique?"
He says, "I don't think it would work on someone trained."
"I agree, if you do it just like the kata. But... didn't anyone ever tell you... kata doesn't train technique... it trains principles?"
[Look of non-understanding]]
"Kata teaches your body things, but it's not teaching you to kick butt. You, in yoru head, use those tools to kick butt when and if you have to, the kata is just a toolkit to reach into in order to get that job done."

** BJJ class ended **

So, I take him out onto the mat to show him this little, nasty variation to shighnage we call, in slang Japanese, kotekojiki. All it is is a short cut to the end-game which, rather than throwing the uke backward and down easily (kata expression), it goes out at a 90-degree off-target to the waveform, finds the weakest joint in the wrist/elbow/shoulder complex and shears it off by tearing the weakest ligament of the structures involved. On me, I know it'be my wrist. On my own instructor, definitely elbow dislocation. My senior student (bodybuilder) shoulder dislocation almost certainly. I have no idea why this guy did not know that was there, but he did not. Hole in his training, where I always make a point to illustrate where "the bad stuff lives." Anyway, we did this full-speed for a couple minutes so he really go to feel it happening, and how fast it takes effect and no I didn't hurt him. We did it back and forth a few times so he could get it for himself. He was grinning like an iidiot (like I do, so I can recognize it) before we were done.

Then I show him how easy it is to get into a shihonage off a standard hand strike (say a cross or big swing, not a jab - you ought to be moving away from a jab IMO) *assuming you find the wrist, I get it * and we sit back down. He's like, Whoa, that's really cool and I had no idea that was there and so on and so forth.

He was impressed, I guess. He was more impressed when someone made a chance remark and let him know that I don't see well at ll, and am almost blind. He got a bit quiet then.

Then the rest of the students show up, and I pull my gi out of my bag while we're still talking. He goes quiet for a bit and I'm speaking to everyone else, grab my belt and hit the mat. I turn around and the guy is gone.

No clue what he was doing there, other than to test me , or the waters... but he never came back. As "challenges" go, I'm totally cool with that type.

 

[Kevin__Huang]

It happened to me personally, once, but it was weird. Definitely NOT what I would have pictured, but maybe that was my ... situation.

This guy, seems normal -- no "I'm Going Postal" look or anything -- came into my school, sat down and waited for class to start. Didn't know I was the "Sensei" he was there to... whatever. Have no idea why he didn't know me on sight, the pic is on the website.

We chatted for about a half-hour as he observed the BJJ Class which was ending, and got along great. I asked about his history, past, instructors, etc., and he never did ask about mine. No big deal. I asked if he was interested in the fre week special the school owner has (that's not me, I just run my class there in a sort of partnership thing and my guys/gals & I pay dues like everyone else), and he said, sure, I guess, but I may be here only for one class. I asked why was that, more niave I, and he said he was here to see "what we were all about," which is a standard, non-challenging thing to say, right... This guy was maybe 26, 28 years old, in good shape, and he said he'd been in jujitsu (unknown brand) for about 5 years, was in goju-ryu karate during high school before that, and had "some taekwondo."

I, in my personable manner, asked him what he was interested in aikido for, and he said, "I really am not sure it works, so I am here to see for myself." I asked him why he thought it didn't work, and he said, "Well, it all looks so fake. It can't possibly work the way that it's done." I laughed, which It hink surprised him, and said *no censor here* ," "No ****. Nah... we don't do it the way we do it outside, we want people to be able to come back and train with us. If we break our training partners, we don't HAVe any training partners!" He thought that was funny, too. So, I asked him, "You've got jujitsu, so you've got kotegaeshi in there somewhere somehow, right?" He agreed, so I asked, "and you've probably got shihonage too, right?" Again, agreement.

(Picture two dudes sitting on a bench, in front of the mat where training is going on, talking with their hands...)

I say, OK, what do you think of the shiho, as an effective fight technique?"
He says, "I don't think it would work on someone trained."
"I agree, if you do it just like the kata. But... didn't anyone ever tell you... kata doesn't train technique... it trains principles?"
[Look of non-understanding]]
"Kata teaches your body things, but it's not teaching you to kick butt. You, in yoru head, use those tools to kick butt when and if you have to, the kata is just a toolkit to reach into in order to get that job done."

** BJJ class ended **

So, I take him out onto the mat to show him this little, nasty variation to shighnage we call, in slang Japanese, kotekojiki. All it is is a short cut to the end-game which, rather than throwing the uke backward and down easily (kata expression), it goes out at a 90-degree off-target to the waveform, finds the weakest joint in the wrist/elbow/shoulder complex and shears it off by tearing the weakest ligament of the structures involved. On me, I know it'be my wrist. On my own instructor, definitely elbow dislocation. My senior student (bodybuilder) shoulder dislocation almost certainly. I have no idea why this guy did not know that was there, but he did not. Hole in his training, where I always make a point to illustrate where "the bad stuff lives." Anyway, we did this full-speed for a couple minutes so he really go to feel it happening, and how fast it takes effect and no I didn't hurt him. We did it back and forth a few times so he could get it for himself. He was grinning like an iidiot (like I do, so I can recognize it) before we were done.

Then I show him how easy it is to get into a shihonage off a standard hand strike (say a cross or big swing, not a jab - you ought to be moving away from a jab IMO) *assuming you find the wrist, I get it * and we sit back down. He's like, Whoa, that's really cool and I had no idea that was there and so on and so forth.

He was impressed, I guess. He was more impressed when someone made a chance remark and let him know that I don't see well at ll, and am almost blind. He got a bit quiet then.

Then the rest of the students show up, and I pull my gi out of my bag while we're still talking. He goes quiet for a bit and I'm speaking to everyone else, grab my belt and hit the mat. I turn around and the guy is gone.

No clue what he was doing there, other than to test me , or the waters... but he never came back. As "challenges" go, I'm totally cool with that type.

Maybe he's afraid that you'll beat the hell out of him, so he ran away while you're distracted [emoji1]

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[Kung Fu Wang]

One day I was in my MA school all by myself, a guy walked in. He picked up a dumbbell from the floor and started to hit on his own head. He told me that was what he does everyday (a tough guy). He then challenged me in sparring. He also said that since he had one leg longer than another leg, he wanted to challenge me in boxing only and no kicking allowed. I played with him for a while, nobody got hurt until he left. The funny thing was, the challenger sets up the rule.

Another day, I just start my class, a guy walked in and asked if he could spar with him in front of all my students. I said, "OK". Without any delay, I jumped in and took him down. I then turned around toward my students, totally ignored him, started my class, and he left. The funny thing was, this time I set up the rule without his permission. I didn't tell him what rule that I was going to use (whether it was a striking game, a grappling game, or both).

Some challenge fight can be civilized. Not all challenge fights have to be life or death.