Does Anyone Know This 8th Dan Hapkido

[glad2bhere]

I would not mind being consulted but what I would want to know before anything else is what their vested interest is in keeping the Hapkido community divided and at each others' throats.

How come after almost 50 years these "famous leading personalities" have not reconciled their differences and pulled the Hapkido community together. Europe has Germany back together faster than that and there may even be a Palestinian State before too long, but the big names in the Hapkido world are just a wee bit too proud to admit that they have acted like spoiled children and made things tough on the rest of the KMA community.

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

I would not mind being consulted but what I would want to know before anything else is what their vested interest is in keeping the Hapkido community divided and at each others' throats.

I suppose to some the idea of a single uniform might seem petty. Ok. Then how about a common nomenclature? No? Well how about a common kebonsu? No? Well how about a cohesive goal for the future? No? Well then, how come the Internationale in Jackson was started by a Westerner?

Its real convenient that each major Hapkido personality has his own turf (how did you put that? Each doing in his own way?) and keeps his troops at odds with everyone else. But what about the average practitioner? These vaunted leaders have ingrained their pettiness so deep that it is now second nature to anyone else who even hopes to have a constructive if critical discussion about the art. The average practitioner just toughes it out as best he can.

How come after almost 50 years these "famous leading personalities" have not reconciled their differences and pulled the Hapkido community together? Europe has Germany back together faster than that and there may even be a Palestinian State before too long, but the big names in the Hapkido world are just a wee bit too proud to admit that they have acted like spoiled children and made things tough on the rest of the KMA community.

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

..........How come after almost 50 years these "famous leading personalities" have not reconciled their differences and pulled the Hapkido community together? Europe has Germany back together faster than that and there may even be a Palestinian State before too long, but the big names in the Hapkido world are just a wee bit too proud to admit that they have acted like spoiled children and made things tough on the rest of the KMA community......

Bruce that's funny.

They can't or don't want to and I'm tried of trying to figure it out.

Why did the KHF bail out of the US last year when they had a great opportunity with many good people ready to do something?

Why did they fire Master Bae?

Why did'nt they let Hal have any control here?

Why didn't they screw Fabian Dugue?

Why didn't they etc., etc, etc.?

That all still blows my mind and tells me you have to do you own thing help when you can, learn where you can, and make friends with people of high morals.

 

[glad2bhere]

Absolutely 100% Right!

And THATS why I think these strings for the last couple of weeks have been so very important! If we continue to wait for guidance from the folks we identify as "leadership" we will never get any encouragement or advice on how to pull things together. What I could imagine happening is that we learn to face down our respective devils' and teach ourselves to communicate intelligently about what we do without the judgements because it is the judgements that seem to be undoing all the good stuff.

For instance, we don't have to all agree that the Korean Han Bok should be a standard. Some people like the HDGD people use such a uniform and so do the Taek Kyon people and thats good for them. I have a student who took a mock-up with him and is going to see if he can get such things made out of canvas in the "old country". Its a resource--- use it or not.

For instance, we can continue to chew on the Minimal Standard. Its creeping along a little bit at a time. Its there for people to use. Its a resource--- Use it or not.

For instance, over on the WARRIOR-SCHOLAR net they are hammering out a kind of Universal Pressure Point and Strike Point chart. The location is named, and crossed to Korean and then validated with a acupuncture point when possible. Its a resource--- use it or not.

This is what I am talking about. If the leadership can't get past their hang-ups to give up a uniform taxonomy than we adults can get together and hammer one out for ourselves. No Money. No Authority. No Permission. No Waiting Around for a Voice to Boom Down from the Heavens. Just folks working together to make the Hapkido better, thats all. People are welcome to drop in or drop out as opportunities open up.

But enough of the waiting for somebody else to hit us with a magic wand.

Lifes too Short.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[whalen]

Greetings,

..........How come after almost 50 years these "famous leading personalities" have not reconciled their differences and pulled the Hapkido community together? Europe has Germany back together faster than that and there may even be a Palestinian State before too long, but the big names in the Hapkido world are just a wee bit too proud to admit that they have acted like spoiled children and made things tough on the rest of the KMA community......

Bruce that's funny.

They can't or don't want to and I'm tried of trying to figure it out.

Why did the KHF bail out of the US last year when they had a great opportunity with many good people ready to do something?

Why did they fire Master Bae?

Why did'nt they let Hal have any control here?

Why didn't they screw Fabian Dugue?

Why didn't they etc., etc, etc.?

That all still blows my mind and tells me you have to do you own thing help when you can, learn where you can, and make friends with people of high morals.

Stu,

Give me a call some time this morning on my cell phone, i lost your number it was in my old phone.

I can fill you in on some things . I know you from the past and anything i have told you stayed with you the same for mike T.

Others agree and the first chance or at their convenience it is used against you.

HAPKI....

Hal

 

[American HKD]

Absolutely 100% Right!

And THATS why I think these strings for the last couple of weeks have been so very important! If we continue to wait for guidance from the folks we identify as "leadership" we will never get any encouragement or advice on how to pull things together. What I could imagine happening is that we learn to face down our respective devils' and teach ourselves to communicate intelligently about what we do without the judgements because it is the judgements that seem to be undoing all the good stuff.

For instance, we don't have to all agree that the Korean Han Bok should be a standard. Some people like the HDGD people use such a uniform and so do the Taek Kyon people and thats good for them. I have a student who took a mock-up with him and is going to see if he can get such things made out of canvas in the "old country". Its a resource--- use it or not.

For instance, we can continue to chew on the Minimal Standard. Its creeping along a little bit at a time. Its there for people to use. Its a resource--- Use it or not.

For instance, over on the WARRIOR-SCHOLAR net they are hammering out a kind of Universal Pressure Point and Strike Point chart. The location is named, and crossed to Korean and then validated with a acupuncture point when possible. Its a resource--- use it or not.

This is what I am talking about. If the leadership can't get past their hang-ups to give up a uniform taxonomy than we adults can get together and hammer one out for ourselves. No Money. No Authority. No Permission. No Waiting Around for a Voice to Boom Down from the Heavens. Just folks working together to make the Hapkido better, thats all. People are welcome to drop in or drop out as opportunities open up.

But enough of the waiting for somebody else to hit us with a magic wand.

Lifes too Short.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

Who are the leaders and what to they do for the Hapkidoin anyway except issue rank? In your case you have Myung and that's good maybe you have some brotherhood or something else that keeps you there and your lucky for that.

In my case I don't feel I have anybody right now a connection if you will. Hals been a great guy but I'm not part of his Kwan. I was accepted into Ulji Kwan but those guys dropped off the map. I don't want to be with my old teacher it's a road to nowhere.

Ji has been very helpful but he's not into playing a role of a supreme leader and wants the SinMoo guys to fend for themselves. Which on one hand is the ultimate lesson in what we're talking about "enough of the waiting for somebody else to hit us with a magic wand" go make it happen. Ji really believes once he gives you the Hapkido tools that's it go fly from the nest and make your own way.

So at this point I need to fully explore my own potential and make my own way FWIW.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".......Who are the leaders and what to they do for the Hapkidoin anyway except issue rank? In your case you have Myung and that's good maybe you have some brotherhood or something else that keeps you there and your lucky for that.

In my case I don't feel I have anybody right now a connection if you will. Hals been a great guy but I'm not part of his Kwan. I was accepted into Ulji Kwan but those guys dropped off the map. I don't want to be with my old teacher it's a road to nowhere......."

And I would bet that there are a helluva lot more folks just like you out there. You probably started off as a guepping on the escalator up through the ranks. Then about first or second degree, just about the time your Hapkido should have been awakening to fruition, you found your teacher was petering out. When I was in Korea I truely felt absorbed into the kwan and everyone was working to help everyone else develop. The teacher (Dojunim Kim) was a kind of paternal figure who was also extraoridarily skilled and gifted. As much as he fussed over his students they in turn looked after him to make sure his needs were cared for. Here is the States its all a cash-and-carry quid pro quo: "I pay you dollars, you teach me techniques." OK, well, if thats the way that its going to be then I guess the "kids" are just going to have to pull together and help each other out. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[whalen]

Back in the mid-eighties there was an attempt to unify Hapkido and it was working on the surface .

It was called the World Hapkido Federation it was a non -profit organization Ji,Han Jae,Gedo Chang, Won Sun Jung. Lee Jung Bai and a host of who's who in Hapkido were members everything went through a board it was "GREAT" seminars conducted At Dojangs were for the cost of brining a master there To assist the dojangs.They all agreed on a curiculim and a set of standards.

I thought it would be in the best interest of Hapkido if I affiliated since i was approached several times by master Myung to join for the sake of Hapkido in the U.S when i joined a lot of Americans followed suite.

Unfortunately greed took over once the money came in Master Myung pushed forms stating this way students could do forms like the Tae kwon do people, this did not go over well especially when he stated that they were approved by Choi YounG Sool and the higher ups new this was not true.

In a secret meeting held by one one man he decided to make the group for profit with him keeping the profits WITHOUT telling anyone else Dan Fee's increased about 400% for the same certificate. Also you were required to host a specific amount of seminars to show your dedication.

Next came the meeting when Ji, Han Jae was ousted without being present shortly after that EVERY korean master Quit..... Why ?

In concept it would have been great But Ego's and who got to control the money Ruined it and who was senior to this one,etc....

I also left but it had hurt the relationship It took years for me to form with my instructor. I have repaired the Damage and i have decided it would be the last time i made a stupid move like that.

This is not the first attempt nor would it be the last I have seen it happen more than once and it is usually with the same players all wanting to control the money.

Hal Whalen

 

[glad2bhere]

I'm sorry.

How does post #28 have anything to do with what is being discussed?

Bruce

 

[whalen]

Maybe you should reread it. Before being so judgmental, you asked WHY do they not try to unite THEY DID,,,,,, you just do not want to hear the reasons why it failed, because your instructor was at the Helm and ran it into the Rocks.

I f you want me to write what you want to hear perhaps you should write for me ......

Maybe Mike T is correct, and just let those that talk, talk this forum serves no real purpose other than some here will have an audience or try to persuade those that are easily influenced...

I have to admit this post no longer serves in the best interest of Hapkido only those that like to see their name in print this is my last post you are cutting to valuable time that i can spend on the mat.....

Hal whalen

 

[glad2bhere]

......................and that is how it goes.

Had this been a string about unifying under a particular authority, Hal would have stayed around. But since its just about Hapkido people working together without benefit of gain to any one individual he has no time for it. Since I have been around for at least a "little bit" I didn't need the information about why people failed to organize under a particular authority in the past. And since the discussion is not about organizing under a particular authority (mostly because it HAS failed in the past) it would have been nice to have his in-put. Maybe this is at the heart of our problem, yes? If a person can't be centerstage they don't want to be on the stage at all. We have a lot of work to do, and it doesn't get done by people cutting and running from the problems. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

It was called the World Hapkido Federation it was a non -profit organization Ji,Han Jae,Gedo Chang, Won Sun Jung. Lee Jung Bai and a host of who's who in Hapkido were members everything went through a board it was "GREAT" seminars conducted At Dojangs were for the cost of brining a master there To assist the dojangs.They all agreed on a curiculim and a set of standards.

Hello all,

Hal, I cut this quote a bit, but this to me was one of the examples of the conspiracy in this country with some of the Hapkido "higher ups". This group in my opinion misled everyone into believing that they were uniting for Hapkido...In fact, it was a ploy to avoid crossing territorial lines. Won Jung and Chang Gedo were in Northern Illinois for example, they were going after the prize of Chicago. Chang Gedo has always kept the same curriculum, Wol Ge Kwan - with BAD forms and everything. I spent 5 years trying to retrain a group of his students from the early 70's becase their technique was so watered down. Won Jung (one of Choi, Yong Sul's earliest students) taught a much more rigorous, traditional way, and as a result never had many students at all in Hapkido - in fact, the last time I spoke to him, last year, he refuses to teach Hapkido at all, just teaching "easier" Taekwondo because "that is what Americans want".

The whole charade was bound to fail when they all started breaking their own rules, trying to set up little groups in each others turf - perfect example of Ji attempting to lure Chicago's oldest martial arts school to include his Hapkido by offering the Chief instructor an 8th Dan when he couldn't spell Hapkido (his remark).

Unite Hapkido, no, they didn't want to do that at all, they just wanted to avoid turf wars, but their greed caught up to them.

However, these discussions we have here have nothing to do with turf. No one here as I have seen as any vested financial interest in getting people to "change sides" - but we must come to a certain level of understanding about what we will accept as Hapkido and its associated ranking systems so that we do not fall into the trap of a conspiracy of silence ourselves.

 

[glad2bhere]

"......However, these discussions we have here have nothing to do with turf. No one here as I have seen as any vested financial interest in getting people to "change sides" - but we must come to a certain level of understanding about what we will accept as Hapkido and its associated ranking systems so that we do not fall into the trap of a conspiracy of silence ourselves......"

.......and since the famous names we all know have not done much about this during their watch, I think it falls to us to do something about it. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

.......and since the famous names we all know have not done much about this during their watch, I think it falls to us to do something about it. FWIW.

Kind of falls into a "catch 22" dosen't it. As a collective of but a handful of people that practice an art or variant thereof, we have no real attentive voice to implement anything that would be accepted by other's. Herein lies the "22". Rank / standing does furnish the platform for attracting other's to at least listen to a presentation.

As for the WHF story that Hal and Kevin addressed, this only adds to the validation or justification for something new to remove Americans from under Korean direct control. Not just "another" organization, but one that honestly stands for something. The basic core cirriculum formulation that's being attempted is a great starting point, but for it to come to acceptance, it should be tied to an anchor of some kind (i.e. an organization).

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

But that is exactly my point. What if this has nothing to do with "attracting people". What if its just a matter of people pooling their knowledge and resources without thought of what they are going to get out it? Thats been the problem all along. Most people will not do anything unless there is something in it for them. OK. I can accept that. My invitation, though is to make the effort NOT to make that the controlling or deciding variable. Make sense? Lets say there are five or ten people who know that they can rely on the rest of the folks in the group to stick with them, share their experiences, act as sounding boards, validate ideas, stir in their in-put to the database stew so-to-speak.What if, when Hal was doing his curriculum he could have bounced his curriculum off of 30 or 40 Hapkido practitioners? What about those people on WARRIOR-SCHOLAR that are putting out that Pressure Point Chart. Think they got permission to do that? Who from? Why is it that folks simply will not let go of the idea that someone has to be in charge, that there needs to be rules and regs and an organization and cash-flow etc etc etc.

I made a trip out to NC to do a seminar for some TSD folks. They were nice enough to give me a gift certificate. JR West drives the "Stealth Van" to seminars all over the States and I don't think hes' independently wealthy because of it. Rudy Timmerman goes wherever hes' invited. And not too long ago you were talking about starting some sort of domestic organization based on home-grown talent. What so different except I am not talking about a tightly structured organization with more rules and regs and paper. I mean, look at you!! You are communicating with me. You've already joined, haven't you? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce, yes we are communicating, but only on a temporary basis. We are nothing more than a small group of people offering opinions, which unto themselves will have no bearing on the hapkido world as we now know it.

I’ll use your reference to Hal offering his curriculum for review to 30 or so different hapkidoin. Now for any of these people to have any respectable input, for Hal to entertain, they must have one of two things. Either on the mat interface with either Hal or someone he knows that can verify said individual or paper from a known organization that stipulates rank / ability (subjective I know). So it still comes back – the vicious circle – to an organizational standing of some sort. That’s the only thing we have to honestly evaluate people when we use the internet to formulate ideas.

I know I sound like a broken record and I see were Stewart is starting to receive some flak on another thread for proposing a new organization, but to my way of thinking, it’s the only way to get out from under and at least try to do the right thing. As you have pointed out, “I guess it’s up to us”, the old guard is content to maintain the status quo.

If and when you are able to put together this new core curriculum for general hapkido exceptance, who will it serve? Everybody already has training thru their own curriculums. You are willing to take the time and energy to undertake this assignment and I applaud you for your efforts, but it imo, it serves little purpose outside of this forum. Now to establish said curriculum to define a minimum standard of acceptance for a governing body to evaluate and train it’s students and review cross over people seeking to align, then you have something tangable.

Respectfully
Mike

 

[glad2bhere]

So, if I might extend your rationale a step further........

We have approximately 5 significant organizations, none of which want to defer to the other. And your solution is to start yet a sixth organization in the fervent belief that THIS organization will magically/mystically do what none of the other five organizations and their internationally recognized head have been able to do.

The fact is that a new organization will not work because the basic premise is deference which is something everyone expects of others but which noone will give of themselves. People want the benefits of the structure that an organization brings but resist the conformity that same structure requires.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SenseiBear]

These threads have been absolutely facinating!

If I were conducting this experiment, I would want to see Stuarts new organization adopt the open-source, living, changing Minimum Standards that Bruce is developing.

It would be neat to get reps from the 5 existing organizations to contribute their input into the open source standard, which could modify itself until it was something they all thought was a decent minimum... None of them change their standards, but they agree that someone meeting those requirements is in general, a black belt.

just an outsiders thoughts...

 

[Disco]

We have approximately 5 significant organizations, none of which want to defer to the other...................

Let me see if I can list them; Kido (Seo)(has split and now there's 2)
WHF (Myung)
KHF (x 2)(Lim & ?)
IHF (Han)

Notice a similarity among them? I realize that I am not going to change your mind on this issue. I have listened to all the rhetoric on unity, self reliance, brotherhood, etc...... By your own words and I may be taking them slightly out of context, but the intent is the same, .......and since the famous names we all know have not done much about this during their watch, I think it falls to us to do something about it. FWIW.

So what should we do about it exactly? And just what is "it" in your opinion?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

I don't think I can make the "it" any clearer than what I have expressed as "it" bumps up against various issues.

To put it as concisely as possible:

I am advocating an "open source" approach towards standardizing what we do and what we are until such time as politics and affiliation have been brought back into perspective.

That is as clear as I can possibly be.

Best Wishes,

Bruce