Documenting forms

[Gerry Seymour]

Is the "mugger's throw" the same as the "shoulder throw" that your back touch on your opponent's chest? Do you have any clip to show the "mugger's throw"?

Mugger's Throw is different from Shoulder Throw (we have that throw, too). I don't have a video of the way I teach it (in some NGA schools, it's more of a hip throw than at mine). If you look at seoi nage, you'll get an idea of it. We don't drop onto both knees like that, and use a turn to clear the "attacker" without their weight coming onto our back. When you look at a full-speed seoi nage, you'll see that they drop straight down onto both knees in their pivot, and uke is thrown nearly straight down. Since we have to account for pavement, we don't do that drop to the knees (actually only putting one knee down), and use rotation to generate the energy we have to sacrifice for that. The minimum rotation (given ideal situation and skilled nage) is to match their hips. Rotating beyond that point (up to nearly 90 degrees beyond that) gives more range to the throw.

 

[DanT]

Hey, I'm wondering if any of you who use long forms (more than a couple of steps) have figured out a good way to document them. What I've been doing is good for technical reference for me, but isn't really useful to someone trying to follow along. Even I am not successful at using it as a reference when I'm working on developing a new kata.

My issue is how to keep direction (relative to the start of the technique) transitions beetween portions, etc. all clear, without the descriptions being so long nobody can use them easily.

I write down all the forms I know in detail. My sifu sometimes takes out his book which is a 500 page notebook filled with notes from various styles. I always joke that I'm gonna steal it LMAO. I guess it's because in terms of forms for white crane there's over 100 forms, many of which are over 200 moves, so it does get, uh, rather difficult to remember on the spot .

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I write down all the forms I know in detail. My sifu sometimes takes out his book which is a 500 page notebook filled with notes from various styles. I always joke that I'm gonna steal it LMAO. I guess it's because in terms of forms for white crane there's over 100 forms, many of which are over 200 moves, so it does get, uh, rather difficult to remember on the spot .

I have some things documented rather meticulously. In my notes, these forms have a lot of detail (and that's the level of detail I'd probably pass along to a new instructor). I've worked out a shorthand that seems to work somewhat for students (better for me), and allows me to get almost an entire form on the blackboard available in the training room.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Have you tried to record the "principle" instead of the form?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have you tried to record the "principle" instead of the form?

I'm not certain I follow your intent on this. I created the forms around the principles. Documenting just the principles doesn't help the student replicate the form. Nor does it help me repeat it exactly each time (which I need to do so students get a consistent example).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not certain I follow your intent on this. I created the forms around the principles. Documenting just the principles doesn't help the student replicate the form. Nor does it help me repeat it exactly each time (which I need to do so students get a consistent example).

In my forms, I have:

- side kick, spin back fist.
- side kick, palm chop to the neck.
- groin kick, face punch.
- foot sweep, face punch.
- ...

I can put all those combos into "use low kick to set up head punch" principle/strategy. By using principle/strategy, students can create their own combos. Sometime students can learn more from it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In my forms, I have:

- side kick, spin back fist.
- side kick, palm chop to the neck.
- groin kick, face punch.
- foot sweep, face punch.
- ...

I can put all those combos into "use low kick to set up head punch" principle/strategy. By using principle/strategy, students can create their own combos. Sometime students can learn more from it.

They are taught the reasoning. Remember that the forms are taught after the techniques. The majority of our training time is around exploring the uses and combinations. The forms are not meant to be adaptable, but to give them a starter set of movements to work with and vary from.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In my forms, I have:

- side kick, spin back fist.
- side kick, palm chop to the neck.
- groin kick, face punch.
- foot sweep, face punch.
- ...

I can put all those combos into "use low kick to set up head punch" principle/strategy. By using principle/strategy, students can create their own combos. Sometime students can learn more from it.

Looking at this again, I should clarify that this I say that this is what the Application kata are. One is all about using strikes to finish a technique, and another is using strikes inside a technique. If I create the third, it will be using strikes to set up a technique.

 

[JP3]

Gerry, why don't you simply use video? You go do the forms, videorecording them from 2 or maybe 3 different angles to capture all the various things you want to convey... while you are talking your way through it, then edit it down to a concise thing and you're done.

Then, upload it to your youtube channel (blocking comments to avoid the necessity of dealing with nonsense), and bam, done. Then, the student could just pull it up on their phone and watch/listen. Handled. No more worrying about the matrix theory of having an absolute reference direction combined with a changing relative reference direction based on opponents who move.... you'll be able to demonstrate it, and the students would be able to watch it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gerry, why don't you simply use video? You go do the forms, videorecording them from 2 or maybe 3 different angles to capture all the various things you want to convey... while you are talking your way through it, then edit it down to a concise thing and you're done.

Then, upload it to your youtube channel (blocking comments to avoid the necessity of dealing with nonsense), and bam, done. Then, the student could just pull it up on their phone and watch/listen. Handled. No more worrying about the matrix theory of having an absolute reference direction combined with a changing relative reference direction based on opponents who move.... you'll be able to demonstrate it, and the students would be able to watch it.

I will eventually do that. These are new forms, though, and I don't want to set too much in concrete. I want to let the exact movements be flexible for now, while I see what the effects are on the students - see if there's anything I need to adjust to kill off some confusion. Once I make the video, it'll be harder to do that. And I don't want to have to re-make the video anytime soon.

While I know I'll need to eventually make the video, I actually don't really want to create such a concrete example. I like being able to spot conceptual issues by seeing the movement choices students make. Once the video is out there, some of those errors will be copying errors, rather than conceptual ones.

At the moment, I'm focused on something students can use as a reference when practicing/memorizing, rather than something that shows every move in the form. That keeps those conceptual errors visible.