Do you know your Kwan Lineage?

[IcemanSK]

There have been a lot of threads having to do with Kwans. I'm curious how many of you know what Kwan system your school is derived from?

When I started (back in 1982) I knew what it was (Chung Do Kwan) but I knew nothing about it at all. Now (in no small part to some of you) I know more & feel a part of that heritage.

Do you know you Kwan? Who started it? etc. For some schools, it's not important at all.

 

[terryl965]

For the most part yes but I really try and stay away from that aspect, over the year I have found that too many people in our Art have such high regards to there linage being the best. But I would be happy to see how everyone else feels about this question.

Ok I edited the thing to answer the question Oh do kwan maybe mis-spelled but really I'm KKW all the way not WTF or anything else

 

[exile]

Do you know you Kwan? Who started it? etc. For some schools, it's not important at all.

My lineage is me --> Allan Shirley --> Greg Fears --> Joon Pye Choi --> Byung Jik Ro (founder of Song Moo Kwan, one of the original 5 Kwans) (--> Gichin Funakoshi --> Anko Itsosu -->... --> ... etc.) When Gm Ro first founded SMK in 1944, after returning to Korea with Dan rank under Funakoshi, the name he gave to the art his school taught was Tang Soo Do, essentially a translation into Korean of `China hand' = karate on the original Okinawan characters for `China'. So Gm. Ro clearly saw what he was doing as his own expression of Shotokan karate. The identification between the two arts is further emphasized that Shoto, which was Funakoshi's pen name, roughly meaning `waving pine', was taken by Gm. Ro directly into Korean: Shotokan = `Shoto's house' = `House of Waving Pines', Song Moo Kwan = `Pine tree martial training house/school/lineage.'

The technical content of Song Moo Kwan seems to have preserved its tight connection to Shotokan karate, if my own training is anything to go by, paralleling the link between the two sibling arts suggested by the relationship between their founders and reinforced by the deliberate linguistic echo of the Okinawan/Japanese art's name in that of Korean art...

 

[IcemanSK]

My lineage is me --> Allan Shirley --> Greg Fears --> Joon Pye Choi --> Byung Jik Ro (founder of Song Moo Kwan, one of the original 5 Kwans) (--> Gichin Funakoshi --> Anko Itsosu -->... --> ... etc.) When Gm Ro first founded SMK in 1944, after returning to Korea with Dan rank under Funakoshi, the name he gave to the art his school taught was Tang Soo Do, essentially a translation into Korean of `China hand' = karate on the original Okinawan characters for `China'. So Gm. Ro clearly saw what he was doing as his own expression of Shotokan karate. The identification between the two arts is further emphasized that Shoto, which was Funakoshi's pen name, roughly meaning `waving pine', was taken by Gm. Ro directly into Korean: Shotokan = `Shoto's house' = `House of Waving Pines', Song Moo Kwan = `Pine tree martial training house/school/lineage.'

The technical content of Song Moo Kwan seems to have preserved its tight connection to Shotokan karate, if my own training is anything to go by, paralleling the link between the two sibling arts suggested by the relationship between their founders and reinforced by the deliberate linguistic echo of the Okinawan/Japanese art's name in that of Korean art...

That's really cool that you know all of this. It's great to have that passed down.

 

[karatekid1975]

In TKD, no I don't. Now that I'm training with my best friend, I really don't care. She's a really good instuctor. But I have tried before to trace lineage, but it didn't work.

But in TSD, I could trace my lineage all the way back to Kwang Kee. It's all on the website for the IMA ( imahg.net ).

In Jujitsu, it not as easy, but my instructor told me the whole story.

 

[exile]

That's really cool that you know all of this. It's great to have that passed down.

I've always tried to keep track of the history of the things I've been involved in... have this feeling that there are clues and bits of guidance for present practice hidden in there, if we knew how to read it. I suppose my idea of history is that it's not really past... it's still going on, living itself out in the present... I just wish more of the early history of TKD, the kwan-era stuff, were preserved. So much was lost during the occupation and then the war...

 

[IcemanSK]

I've always tried to keep track of the history of the things I've been involved in... have this feeling that there are clues and bits of guidance for present practice hidden in there, if we knew how to read it. I suppose my idea of history is that it's not really past... it's still going on, living itself out in the present... I just wish more of the early history of TKD, the kwan-era stuff, were preserved. So much was lost during the occupation and then the war...

At the Conference GM Park, Hae Man was the guest of honor, he showed us a slideshow of at least an hour of photos from the old days (40's & 50's). It was great! Group shots of folks in a dojang & he'd causuallly say, "That's Jhoon Rhee" or some such thing. It was amazing!

Sadly, a lot of those folks are getting older, too. An oral history would be better than no history at all.

 

[rmclain]

Our Chayon-Ryu system is from the Changmoo-Kwan and Kangduk-Won, which both came from the same school, Chosun YMCA Kwon Bup Bu.

Our Hapkido influence is from the Sungmoo-Kwan Hapkido (Han Jae-ji). He now calls his art, SinMoo Hapkido.

http://www.kimsookarate.com/intro/chart.html


R. McLain

 

[woot]

Oh Do Kwan, which I believe is roughly translated as "School of My Way".

 

[Tswolfman]

I just came across this thread thanks to Exile. Yes i Know my Lineage which is kinda weird, but very similar to Exile's.

Me ( Thomas S. Wolf) --> Greg Fears --> Joon Pye Choi --> Byung Jik Ro --> ... etc. ( 1980's )
( However I have Also Trained under in the Same Lineage)
Allan Shirley --> Greg Fears --> Joon Pye Choi etc. ( Early 1990's)
or
Darrell Trudo --> Joon Pye Choi etc. ( late 1990's until 2005 )
( Darrell Trudo was also a Student of Greg Fears after being a student of GM Choi)

 

[Kacey]

There have been a lot of threads having to do with Kwans. I'm curious how many of you know what Kwan system your school is derived from?

Oh Do Kwan... me --> Master Doug Arnold --> GM Walter Lang --> David Kim (first instructor) and Gen. Choi (second instructor); there are branches and splits here and there, but those show the key people, I think.

 

[Kwan Jang]

TsWolfman,
It's even a smaller world than you may realize. After Greg broke away from Joon Pye Choi, he became a student of my instructors, KJN Ernie eyes and KJN Tony Thompson. Greg has been my "adopted brother" since (iirc) 1985. In fact, KJN Ernie, Greg and I were the judges for Allen Shirley's 3rd dan test back in 2000. Allen made a very strong, positive impression on me as both a great martial artist and human being.

My lineage as far as TKD is concerned (I cross train a lot and have ranking in several systems) is from the MDK. My instructors are KJN Ernie Reyes, Sr. and KJN Tony Thompson (partners for well over 30 years)>>>GM Dan Kyu Choi>>>GM Kong>>>Hwang Kee. I have seen the actual lineage chart in a TSD book a couple of years back and seem to recall at least one other instructor "on the lineage tree" between GM Kong and the founder of MDK, but I can't remember for certain. I have trouble sometimes remembering everyone I've trained with over the years (LOL).

 

[exile]

TsWolfman,
It's even a smaller world than you may realize. After Greg broke away from Joon Pye Choi, he became a student of my instructors, KJN Ernie eyes and KJN Tony Thompson. Greg has been my "adopted brother" since (iirc) 1985. In fact, KJN Ernie, Greg and I were the judges for Allen Shirley's 3rd dan test back in 2000. Allen made a very strong, positive impression on me as both a great martial artist and human being.

My lineage as far as TKD is concerned (I cross train a lot and have ranking in several systems) is from the MDK. My instructors are KJN Ernie Reyes, Sr. and KJN Tony Thompson (partners for well over 30 years)>>>GM Dan Kyu Choi>>>GM Kong>>>Hwang Kee. I have seen the actual lineage chart in a TSD book a couple of years back and seem to recall at least one other instructor "on the lineage tree" between GM Kong and the founder of MDK, but I can't remember for certain. I have trouble sometimes remembering everyone I've trained with over the years (LOL).

KwJ, I appreciate that very much. No truer words were e're spoken of a great MAist and a great man. :asian:

And Tswolfman, I appreciate your reference to Master Darrell Trudo, Mr. Shirley's classmate, training partner and business associate. He was mourned throughout the Midwestern TKD community when he died, far too young, of sickle-cell anemia last year.

 

[Errant108]

Park Changhwa > Hong Chongsu > Hwang Gi

 

[FearlessFreep]

My current instructor makes no bones about his Jidokwan lineage. It's very obvious in the technique and in some of the traditions of the school

 

[e ship yuk]

When I began training, we called what we did tae kwon do. My line was Chung Do Kwan:

Charlie Veuleman > Dwain Spillman > David Jordan > Atlee Chittim > Jhoon Rhee > Lee, Won Kuk

As far as we could determine, Atlee Chittim was one of Jhoon Rhee's first dan ranked students when he came over - in fact, sponsored him into the states. He learned the old Shotokan forms (pyong-an, bassai, naihanchi, etc) from GM Rhee.

Anyway... this was the line under which I earned my black belt. Shortly thereafter, my instructor, whose instructor had stopped teaching years before, decided to try to get "closer to the roots" as it were, and we began training in a tang soo do school, so Moo Duk Kwan:

Charlie Veuleman > Dennis McHenry > Jae Joon Kim > Hwang Kee

 

[Laurentkd]

We are from Jidokwan, and while we consider ourselves completely WTF (although we do incorporate some Judo), my sahbomnim still thinks it is important to recognize our roots.
There is me, my instructor M.J. Butler, his master GM P.T. Ko, and his master GM S.W. Lee who is the current Jidokwan president and rumored by some as a potential for the next Kukkiwon president (which I think would be really cool!)

For what it is worth, every student by orange belt must know their linage (as above)

 

[newGuy12]

I only know that my GrandMaster belonged to the ChungDoKwan. He was involved in law enforcement (a messy business!) after the occupation. I also know that His Grand Master lived in Japan, at least he did when I knew my Grand Master.

I was also told that Tang So Do was the original TKD, and that it meant "hand in the wind". I can only repeat what I was told. We were not told very much, and I did not ask, for better or worse.

I also know that he trained in a mountain area, actually somewhere high up on a mountain, in a Bhuddhist temple. He told us that they would study only one technique, and practice it for a LONG time, very long, and then finally learn another technique. He said that it was not like it is today, where students learn many techiques very soon. That has nothing to do with my lineage, but its about the best that I can do. He also said that there was a lot of meditation in those days where he practiced, and that injuries were not uncommon. Wild animals were also in close proximity to where they lived.

 

[exile]

I was also told that Tang So Do was the original TKD, and that it meant "hand in the wind". I can only repeat what I was told. We were not told very much, and I did not ask, for better or worse.

Tang Su Do is just the Korean translation of kara te under the transliteration which means 'China hand' (kong su do, the other common name in the Kwan era for what the schools were teaching, is also kara te under the 'empty hand' transliteration. The lads came back from points east, mostly Tokyo, I think, and began teaching... well, karate, except translated into Korean.

 

[e ship yuk]

I only know that my GrandMaster belonged to the ChungDoKwan. He was involved in law enforcement (a messy business!) after the occupation. I also know that His Instructor lived in Japan, at least he did when I knew my Grand Master.

The Chung Do Kwan was rather famous for being the "policeman's dojang" in Seoul. Lee, Won Kuk lived in Japan for a while after the Korean War broke out; is it possible your GM trained with the founder of the CDK?

I was also told that Tang So Do was the original TKD, and that it meant "hand in the wind". I can only repeat what I was told. We were not told very much, and I did not ask, for better or worse.

Many of the kwans originally called their art Tang Soo Do, others Kong Soo Do, and others Kwon Bup; so in a way, yes, TSD was the original TKD. The characters that make up the name pronounced Tang Soo Do in Korean, are the same as for the old Karate-Do, meaning "China Hand Way"; the newer characters meaning "Empty Hand Way" are pronounced "Kong Soo Do" in Korean.

*edit: Damn, Exile beat me to that. I must type slow or something...*

My instructor's instructor's instructor (great-grand-sabumnim, to borrow a term from Exile ) didn't like talking about his instructor much, either. You'd ask a question, and he would respond, "I don't much like to talk about that," and walk away, or "When I was training under Master Chittim, we didn't ask questions, we just kicked the bag some more."