K
kenpochad
Guest
i was told that it doesnt matter to much as long as you up your all in ot it
its a spirt shout
its a spirt shout
Differing kias
- Thread starter Kodora
- Start date
Ray
Master Black Belt
Earlier posts have mentioned some of the physical reasons for kiai-ing (e.g. keeping from getting the "wind knocked out," synchronizing the exhalation with a strike to maximize power, etc).kenpochad said:
Some words are better for a quick and near complete exhale than others: "banana," I think, would do a poor job of it.
K
kenpochad
Guest
I know that i geuss i should of said a short burst ,Ray said:
But what about ssss you like boxers do ?
Ray
Master Black Belt
I think you're right. And/or a burst of exhalation through the nose like some boxers do might work.kenpochad said:
The "ssss" reminds me of the tea-kettle/tea-pot idea {I think I saw in one of Mr. Parker's books}. I've heard some people make a "tss" sound when sparring.
swiftpete
Blue Belt
Ray said:
Doc
Senior Master
That would be incorrect. The "spirit shout" as you say is from the Japanese Kiai superficial understanding of proper breathing.kenpochad said:
Doc
Senior Master
Boxers breath through the nose because they have to, because of the custom mouthguard required in the sport. Although this can be effective it precludes placement of the teeth relative to the tongue and affects posture positively and negatively. Therefore, utilizing the Japanese explanation, boxers do not 'kiai,' but instead utilize a method of 'breathing' unique to their sport. No spoken word or sound constricts the throat, however the teeth, tongue, and pallette are instrumental in specific sound creation.Ray said:
Understand all, its not really about the "sounds" you make. The sounds were simply used to teach body posture required through those speciifc sounds. "wax on wax off" is not about waxing, but about blocking. A competent teacher should be teaching 'posture' instead of words or sounds, but that requires knowledge most "instructors" don't have. I've often said it here. "Everything matters." Move a finger, roll an eyeball, turn your head, etc. can make or break your structure. The position of your mouth, tongue, teeth, etc are as much a part of the equation as your feet, and most don't even have sound stances. The truth is, we should be talking about stances instead of sounds.
TwistofFat
Green Belt
Doc,
It kinda reminds me of a heavy bench press. While pushing it does help to exhale but no amount of shouting or screaming replace repetitions done correctly.
Regards - Glenn.
It kinda reminds me of a heavy bench press. While pushing it does help to exhale but no amount of shouting or screaming replace repetitions done correctly.
Regards - Glenn.
Doc
Senior Master
Dam that was good. Why didn't I use that analogy? May I steal that sir? (I'll give you creditTwistofFat said:
)TwistofFat
Green Belt
Doc,
Knock $3 off my first lesson and you have a deal...lol
Regards - Glenn.
Knock $3 off my first lesson and you have a deal...lol
Regards - Glenn.
Doc
Senior Master
Better than that. I'll buy you lunch. Deal!TwistofFat said:
Ray
Master Black Belt
Let me be the first to say that I missed the obvious. I need to learn to ask "why" a whole lot more than I do. I observe that boxers exhale through their nose and assume it must be a "western scientific" replacement for the kiai.Doc said:
Then someone who knows "why" tells me why. And then I wonder "why can't I see the obvious?"
Doc
Senior Master
Why didn't I invent the paper clip? Anything that simple I should have thought of.Ray said:
Making the Journey
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Dark Kenpo Lord said:
A Kiai is to make you more dense for more impact value... There is a drill you can do to feel this actually happening... One person inhales deeply and another picks them up from behind then put them down... then the same person exhales and completely relaxes their body... then try and pick them up... it may be just a bit harder ;-D... this is what your body must be like when you strike... You're at your most deadly when you are relaxed
SAVAGE
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here are many different sort of Kiai noises that an individual make as well:
"I" - For upper body attacks such as punches or elbows
"Tae" - For low body attacks such as kicks
"E-I" - For lifting and then throwing motions utilizing primarily the upper body
I know that the rest of this post is abit off tangent....but I wrote this a while ago about Kiaia....I hope you guys enjoy it!
Kiai
If there is one thing all Martial Arts posses it is some sort of cry, all over the world the call of Martial arts bretheren ring out from training halls, a resonant “Kiai!”
The truth is that not many people understand the Kiai, and what it is used for…some say it is to show spirit, others think it is an intimidation technique, I however think that this is false. Spirit, intimidation and Kiai are different beasts all together!
Let us first explore spirit! I am of course not talking about the kind that haunt you, but the mood or attitude (Collins Dictionary definition). Spirit is courage, the get up and go, when you know you should just get up and go. Pushing that last rep, going for that last point, practicing your kata one more time, when you are at the point of collapse. A member of my class, broke his leg playing rugby, yet he never missed a training session, sitting in the back of the class watching, learning. I am reminded of a girl I went to school with who was blind in one eye after an accident with a stone…who went on to get the third highest mark in the country for our final examination (Fiji School Leavers Certificate), I remember a little boy who lost his hearing after being stabbed in the ear with a screwdriver, and was never allowed to swim, a hard thing for a child, considering he was a national level champion, he is now deaf in his left ear but has learned to adapt, he took up a new hobby, perhaps some of you have heard of it, its called Martial Arts! The boy I went to school with who collected soda cans during lunch hour to sell for his school fees after his father died leaving him the youngest of 6 brothers and 3sisters!
That is spirit, the ability to spit in the face of fate, the ability to survive against insurmountable odds…to achieve your goals. Many Martial Artists will not have made it in the dojos/dojangs/training halls if not for spirit! When I first started Martial Arts, my class was huge, but as the ranks climb the numbers dwindle because not everyone posses this spirit. Spirit is not a technique to be learned, it is something you either have or you don’t!
Kiai is a form of breathing, When done properly, the kiai empties air from the lungs. This is good, because if you are struck after executing a kiai, the chances of having the "wind knocked out of you" are greatly reduced. Also, by getting as much air out of your lungs as possible, it makes you a somewhat harder, denser target. Therefore, if you are atruck after a kiai, it should not hurt quite as much. A Kiai is an exhalation caused by a tightening of the muscles of the abdomen, it is how we force air to escape our bodies during exertion. Normally people cannot consciously use their entire bodily strength or power, especially if they are untrained. It has been estimated that the unused portion could effectively double the strength of some people. there is a good reason why the strength is not normally availale. the lifting of a heavy weight, mopre weight than you have lifted before. Forces you to increase your effort towards your maximum. What is that maximum? most people would at some point tell you that they could exert no more force and give up. What they mean is that (usually unconsciously) they have reached the point at which the weakest part of their body, the weakest link in the chain, is going to fail. that weakest link is muscle strength more often than not! However it is DANGEROUS to go to full strength in a way that one has not built up to through training, and the mind knows it and provides suitable inhibitions geared to that weakest link . The kiai is one way of beating the bodys inhibitions!!!
How can we develop this ability…Tan Jon…what is tan jon…..well I think this says it all!
Quote:What is the "Tan Jon"?
The Tan Jon area, located about two inches below the naval is believed to be the source of origination and the focal point of physical energy (ki). This area is called the Tanden in Yoga and corresponds to one's center of gravity and is a common area of focus during meditation, concentration, and abdominal breathing exercises.
As with a lot of Korean terminology there is often different variations in English translations. The "Tan Jon" is sometimes referred to as "Dan Jon", "Dan Jung", "Dan Gun" etc. They all mean the same thing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Purpose
By learning to feel and concentrate your mind on the Tan Jon area, you can learn to control and more fully utilize your physical power. Learning to breathe properly and to utilize breath control during execution of a technique is essential to the practice of hapkido and indeed martial arts in general.
Hapkido is more than just physical training - it also involves a large amount of mental discipline. When focusing on a technique in your mind you should try and visualise it performed perfectly. Physical actions are a direct reflection of the images in your mind i.e. the "mind-muscle" connection.
Hapkido means the way of "way of co-ordinated power" or "the way of strength and harmony". This means that mental and physical power are united. In Hapkido, physical power is called "wae ki" while mental power is called "nae ki". Nae ki and wae ki are joined together - one must maintain the balance between the two.
Mental concentration can help increase your:
Strength/Power
Stamina
Speed
Focus and Precision
Continuity
Awareness of your surroundings
In training we learn how to perform Tan Jon breathing (before patterns and basics) and how to apply this technique during a technique such as a strike or joint lock. The actual process of learning Tan Jon breathing helps develop patience, perseverance, and self discipline because it does take time and effort to reach the point where proper breathing during hapkido is automatic. Many repititions of Tan Jon breathing are required to develop an "automatic" coordination between breathing and technique.
The most obvious benefit from Tan Jon breathing is that it teaches abdominal breathing. Most people as they grow up switch from abdominal breathing to upper chest breathing, especially when they are under stress. This uses only the top part of the lungs and can result in more stress being put on the heart and cardiovascular system. Abdominal breathing allows all of the lungs to be used effectively. This increases the oxygenation of the blood with less work for the heart. There is anecdotal evidence that abdominal breathing reduces the risk of some cardiovascular diseases. As an additional benefit: the strengthing of the abdominals can help reduce the likelihood of lower back problems and aid in improving posture.
Increased oxygen supply increases stamina. This is why an older student with good breathing control will always outlast a younger student who hasn't internalised the habit of abdominal breathing.
Most people probably realise that a 'deep, calming breath' is good counter to either 'losing it' or settling oneself during a stressful situation. 90% of all conflict is won prior to the first blow being struck. It is the person who is in control, focussed and aware who will emerge the victor from any 'conflict' - be it an actual physical conflict, or more mundane event such as a business negotiation.
By putting together the breathing control with a calm mind allows you to focus your physical energy into a more effective technique. The simplest way to demonstrate this is to try hitting a punching bag as you breath in and compare the power of this to that of doing the same exercise as you breath out. The strike on the breath out is much stronger. By using your mind to imagine that all of your energy is being transmitted into your striking point allows you to strike more effectively than if you were just swinging away blindly.
Tan Jon breathing can greatly assist muscular tension, provide a solid stance and explosive action. Explosive movement in all martial arts is in fact always accompanied with a kihap! (yell). This yell co-ordinates naturally with the breathing (exhaling on the yell) and this assists muscle contraction thus boosting explosiveness and speed. The kihap! provides a psychological focus for the technique, and this can have the affect of shattering the opponent's concentration and give an opening for attack. In training striking and "duck and punch" drills should be performed with a kihap!.
In performing a strike or self defense technique the idea is to initially focus on the Tan Jon. Think of the action of the kihap! as the moment you are pulling ki from the Tan Jon and focusing/releasing it in the offensive or defensive movement being undertaken.
Do you think that spirit and kiai are different????...I do!
*bows respectfully*
"I" - For upper body attacks such as punches or elbows
"Tae" - For low body attacks such as kicks
"E-I" - For lifting and then throwing motions utilizing primarily the upper body
I know that the rest of this post is abit off tangent....but I wrote this a while ago about Kiaia....I hope you guys enjoy it!
Kiai
If there is one thing all Martial Arts posses it is some sort of cry, all over the world the call of Martial arts bretheren ring out from training halls, a resonant “Kiai!”
The truth is that not many people understand the Kiai, and what it is used for…some say it is to show spirit, others think it is an intimidation technique, I however think that this is false. Spirit, intimidation and Kiai are different beasts all together!
Let us first explore spirit! I am of course not talking about the kind that haunt you, but the mood or attitude (Collins Dictionary definition). Spirit is courage, the get up and go, when you know you should just get up and go. Pushing that last rep, going for that last point, practicing your kata one more time, when you are at the point of collapse. A member of my class, broke his leg playing rugby, yet he never missed a training session, sitting in the back of the class watching, learning. I am reminded of a girl I went to school with who was blind in one eye after an accident with a stone…who went on to get the third highest mark in the country for our final examination (Fiji School Leavers Certificate), I remember a little boy who lost his hearing after being stabbed in the ear with a screwdriver, and was never allowed to swim, a hard thing for a child, considering he was a national level champion, he is now deaf in his left ear but has learned to adapt, he took up a new hobby, perhaps some of you have heard of it, its called Martial Arts! The boy I went to school with who collected soda cans during lunch hour to sell for his school fees after his father died leaving him the youngest of 6 brothers and 3sisters!
That is spirit, the ability to spit in the face of fate, the ability to survive against insurmountable odds…to achieve your goals. Many Martial Artists will not have made it in the dojos/dojangs/training halls if not for spirit! When I first started Martial Arts, my class was huge, but as the ranks climb the numbers dwindle because not everyone posses this spirit. Spirit is not a technique to be learned, it is something you either have or you don’t!
Kiai is a form of breathing, When done properly, the kiai empties air from the lungs. This is good, because if you are struck after executing a kiai, the chances of having the "wind knocked out of you" are greatly reduced. Also, by getting as much air out of your lungs as possible, it makes you a somewhat harder, denser target. Therefore, if you are atruck after a kiai, it should not hurt quite as much. A Kiai is an exhalation caused by a tightening of the muscles of the abdomen, it is how we force air to escape our bodies during exertion. Normally people cannot consciously use their entire bodily strength or power, especially if they are untrained. It has been estimated that the unused portion could effectively double the strength of some people. there is a good reason why the strength is not normally availale. the lifting of a heavy weight, mopre weight than you have lifted before. Forces you to increase your effort towards your maximum. What is that maximum? most people would at some point tell you that they could exert no more force and give up. What they mean is that (usually unconsciously) they have reached the point at which the weakest part of their body, the weakest link in the chain, is going to fail. that weakest link is muscle strength more often than not! However it is DANGEROUS to go to full strength in a way that one has not built up to through training, and the mind knows it and provides suitable inhibitions geared to that weakest link . The kiai is one way of beating the bodys inhibitions!!!
How can we develop this ability…Tan Jon…what is tan jon…..well I think this says it all!
Quote:What is the "Tan Jon"?
The Tan Jon area, located about two inches below the naval is believed to be the source of origination and the focal point of physical energy (ki). This area is called the Tanden in Yoga and corresponds to one's center of gravity and is a common area of focus during meditation, concentration, and abdominal breathing exercises.
As with a lot of Korean terminology there is often different variations in English translations. The "Tan Jon" is sometimes referred to as "Dan Jon", "Dan Jung", "Dan Gun" etc. They all mean the same thing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Purpose
By learning to feel and concentrate your mind on the Tan Jon area, you can learn to control and more fully utilize your physical power. Learning to breathe properly and to utilize breath control during execution of a technique is essential to the practice of hapkido and indeed martial arts in general.
Hapkido is more than just physical training - it also involves a large amount of mental discipline. When focusing on a technique in your mind you should try and visualise it performed perfectly. Physical actions are a direct reflection of the images in your mind i.e. the "mind-muscle" connection.
Hapkido means the way of "way of co-ordinated power" or "the way of strength and harmony". This means that mental and physical power are united. In Hapkido, physical power is called "wae ki" while mental power is called "nae ki". Nae ki and wae ki are joined together - one must maintain the balance between the two.
Mental concentration can help increase your:
Strength/Power
Stamina
Speed
Focus and Precision
Continuity
Awareness of your surroundings
In training we learn how to perform Tan Jon breathing (before patterns and basics) and how to apply this technique during a technique such as a strike or joint lock. The actual process of learning Tan Jon breathing helps develop patience, perseverance, and self discipline because it does take time and effort to reach the point where proper breathing during hapkido is automatic. Many repititions of Tan Jon breathing are required to develop an "automatic" coordination between breathing and technique.
The most obvious benefit from Tan Jon breathing is that it teaches abdominal breathing. Most people as they grow up switch from abdominal breathing to upper chest breathing, especially when they are under stress. This uses only the top part of the lungs and can result in more stress being put on the heart and cardiovascular system. Abdominal breathing allows all of the lungs to be used effectively. This increases the oxygenation of the blood with less work for the heart. There is anecdotal evidence that abdominal breathing reduces the risk of some cardiovascular diseases. As an additional benefit: the strengthing of the abdominals can help reduce the likelihood of lower back problems and aid in improving posture.
Increased oxygen supply increases stamina. This is why an older student with good breathing control will always outlast a younger student who hasn't internalised the habit of abdominal breathing.
Most people probably realise that a 'deep, calming breath' is good counter to either 'losing it' or settling oneself during a stressful situation. 90% of all conflict is won prior to the first blow being struck. It is the person who is in control, focussed and aware who will emerge the victor from any 'conflict' - be it an actual physical conflict, or more mundane event such as a business negotiation.
By putting together the breathing control with a calm mind allows you to focus your physical energy into a more effective technique. The simplest way to demonstrate this is to try hitting a punching bag as you breath in and compare the power of this to that of doing the same exercise as you breath out. The strike on the breath out is much stronger. By using your mind to imagine that all of your energy is being transmitted into your striking point allows you to strike more effectively than if you were just swinging away blindly.
Tan Jon breathing can greatly assist muscular tension, provide a solid stance and explosive action. Explosive movement in all martial arts is in fact always accompanied with a kihap! (yell). This yell co-ordinates naturally with the breathing (exhaling on the yell) and this assists muscle contraction thus boosting explosiveness and speed. The kihap! provides a psychological focus for the technique, and this can have the affect of shattering the opponent's concentration and give an opening for attack. In training striking and "duck and punch" drills should be performed with a kihap!.
In performing a strike or self defense technique the idea is to initially focus on the Tan Jon. Think of the action of the kihap! as the moment you are pulling ki from the Tan Jon and focusing/releasing it in the offensive or defensive movement being undertaken.
Do you think that spirit and kiai are different????...I do!
*bows respectfully*
