Different wristlocks and different responses to wristlocks

[skribs]

I've been working on wristlocks a lot lately. Trying to apply what I learned in Hapkido to BJJ.

One thing I think is interesting is the very different approach both arts take to what I would consider to be the fundamental wristlocks of the art. In HKD, wristlocks are typically made by going 2-on-1 on the hand and wrist that you're attacking. A couple examples from a thread I posted a long time ago in the HKD forum:

I would argue these are the two most common wristlocks in Hapkido. I call them the Z-Lock (left) and V-Lock (right), although at my HKD school these were named "#8" and "#14". There are many other common moves that can be enhanced by wristlocks, but these two are the most common that focus on the wristlock itself.

Wristlocks in BJJ tend to be done either:

• Pin the elbow to the mat, then gooseneck.
• Trap the hand against your body, then pull on the elbow.

I would argue the "BJJ wristlock" is an attack on the elbow, where the "HKD wristlock" is an attack on the hand. I don't recall doing much of the BJJ style in HKD, but I do know that the HKD style can be done in BJJ, but I'm painting with broad strokes here.

My favorite BJJ-style wristlock is to finish an Omoplata with a gooseneck.

I've been going after wristlocks on 4 different people in my gym so far. It's been interesting the responses I've gotten.

1. A teenage gray belt (that he and Professor have both given me the okay to wristlock), I just catch him in HKD techniques left and right.
2. A blue belt that "grew up" with me in class, he's too stubborn to tap to them unless I get him pinned down. However, I haven't hurt him, so I guess he was right not to.
3. A blue belt with national-level wrestling talent, when I start hunting wristlocks, he gets very careful in how he approaches me. Normally he completely smashes me, but this gives me some openings to make some moves...before he gets into a dominant position and then I've lost it.
4. A purple belt that I've tried one wristlock on, and then he proceeded to smash me harder than he's ever smashed me before. The exact opposite of #3. And of course, after he gets me in side control, he wristlocks me. And of course, I went full hypocrite and gave him a hard time about using wristlocks.

It's tough to hit wristlocks in rolls. In part because I'm not allowed to do them on white belts (especially newer white belts). In part because upper belts are already grip fighting, which makes it difficult to secure a HKD style grip. I do remember in HKD we did two types of sparring:

• A self-defense version of positional rolls, where one person would create a situation you need to defend yourself from. This was always fun and engaging, and a decent way of pressure-testing if your technique would work in that situation.
• A "live roll" which basically ended up with us never-ending swimming for a 2-on-1 grip, and usually resulted in a standing stalemate.

So it does make sense that using HKD style attacks in BJJ would have a similar level of success. But sometimes I hit them, and I'm trying to hit them more often.

 

[drop bear]

All of those wrist locks are an attack on the elbow.

If the elbow is free. There is just too much slack.

Even that outer wrist lock throw. If you push their elbow in to their body and trap it. You will have more success.

And with white belts I enter with the wrist lock. Then let it go as a grip fight.

 

[drop bear]

And two on one Russians and arm drags.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

All of those wrist locks are an attack on the elbow.

If the elbow is free. There is just too much slack.

Even that outer wrist lock throw. If you push their elbow in to their body and trap it. You will have more success.

And with white belts I enter with the wrist lock. Then let it go as a grip fight.

I think you hit the point on wrist locks. They only work if the rest of the arm/shoulder are already pinned. But if you try it, and the opponent reacts (and you know how they'll react), It allows you to get an elbow or shoulder lock.

 

[skribs]

I think you hit the point on wrist locks. They only work if the rest of the arm/shoulder are already pinned. But if you try it, and the opponent reacts (and you know how they'll react), It allows you to get an elbow or shoulder lock.

The way we use them in Hapkido is to use the wristlock to maneuver the arm into such a position that it is trapped. I've had moderate success with this in BJJ.

For example, in the Z-Lock if you drive the back of their wrist into their belly button, then there's not much they can do without footwork, and you might be able to drive through and chase it.

I've hit that on white belts in BJJ class without trapping the elbow. I talked about with my Professor, and he said, "Well yeah, when you grab like that..."

 

[Teapot]

Shape-wise, those wristlocks seem pretty ubiquitous in martial arts.

They can be found in many Chinese martial arts.

It's no surprise that Hapkido and BJJ would have them because don't they both have roots in old Japanese arts.

Doesn't Hapkido have some root in Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu where whereas BJJ stems from Judo which stems from Kito-Ryu and Tenjin Shin'yo-Ryu? Aikido, from Daito-Ryu, has those wristlocks as well.

They're pretty common. But, the execution can vary a lot depending on style. For instance, I wouldn't hold the opponent's hand the way it's depicted in the images, but I'm aware that some styles do it that way - and they would probably have something similar to how I would do them too.

 

[wab25]

So context and history come into play here. These locks are old, and over time we have lost their context and because of that our training of them is not complete. We only have the beginning of the path here....

What you are calling a V-Lock is used for a weapon disarm. The attacker has a very tight grip on the weapon... and the part he is not gripping is sharp. When you apply your V-Lock it forces the grip open, so that you can take the weapon from his grip. What is in the art now: reach, punch, ... whatever, and I step off line, catch your wrist and apply the V-Lock.... was about learning the right grip and application of force. This was then worked back to the weapons disarm, which included a take down and pin, multiple joints being destroyed: shoulder, elbow and wrist in order to strip the weapon. (often, this was done by more than one person attacking the guy with the sword....) Over the years we have reduced this training to just the static reach for me and I lock you part. If the guy reaching for you is not conditioned to lock his feet to the floor... that is, if he continues to move his feet... then you must change. You either change to a different technique... you know where he will go so this is used to walk him into it... or you have to also move your feet. If you also move your feet, it become a never ending battle, unless you can take him to the ground and start to pin his body that way.... the way the BJJ guys do it. In TMA, too often, we are content to stop after learning the beginner stage.... and unfortunately think we understand how to lock someone.

What you are calling a Z-Lock, I believe came from someone trying to take your bo, jo or hanbo away. They grab the end of the stick, you use the leverage of the stick to apply the Z-Lock. Some people are good enough, that it becomes almost impossible for you to let go of the stick, other people will use their hand to trap your hand and then use the lock. In reality, if you try to grab my weapon and I do the lock... if you get wrist locked, great.... if you let go, and I have my weapon still, great. From there, we apply the same idea to a wrist grab, lapel grab, shoulder grab, punch... The thing is, that here again, if the other guy moves his feet... you need to move yours or change techniques. If you move your feet, you will need to keep him off balance as you move, and find a way to take him down, to get a pin to help isolate the lock.

Today, BJJ guys practice the application of locks, once the fight has gone to the ground... while TMA does the standing part. That middle transition has largely gone missing... mainly because people do not realize that the standing locks and grounded locks are the same. We also forget that much of these were to strip a weapon or retain a weapon.

Fun counter to your Z-Lock: Using your picture above... you are applying the lock to his left wrist. If he does a quarter turn into you, putting his right shoulder to your centerline, then he kneels down and moves his left arm in a cutting motion away from you... it will throw you right over his shoulders.... and because he is kneeling in front of you, it prevents you from taking a step forward.... producing a nice high fall.

 

[dunc]

I've been working on wristlocks a lot lately. Trying to apply what I learned in Hapkido to BJJ.

One thing I think is interesting is the very different approach both arts take to what I would consider to be the fundamental wristlocks of the art. In HKD, wristlocks are typically made by going 2-on-1 on the hand and wrist that you're attacking. A couple examples from a thread I posted a long time ago in the HKD forum:

I would argue these are the two most common wristlocks in Hapkido. I call them the Z-Lock (left) and V-Lock (right), although at my HKD school these were named "#8" and "#14". There are many other common moves that can be enhanced by wristlocks, but these two are the most common that focus on the wristlock itself.

Wristlocks in BJJ tend to be done either:

• Pin the elbow to the mat, then gooseneck.
• Trap the hand against your body, then pull on the elbow.

I would argue the "BJJ wristlock" is an attack on the elbow, where the "HKD wristlock" is an attack on the hand. I don't recall doing much of the BJJ style in HKD, but I do know that the HKD style can be done in BJJ, but I'm painting with broad strokes here.

My favorite BJJ-style wristlock is to finish an Omoplata with a gooseneck.

I've been going after wristlocks on 4 different people in my gym so far. It's been interesting the responses I've gotten.

1. A teenage gray belt (that he and Professor have both given me the okay to wristlock), I just catch him in HKD techniques left and right.
2. A blue belt that "grew up" with me in class, he's too stubborn to tap to them unless I get him pinned down. However, I haven't hurt him, so I guess he was right not to.
3. A blue belt with national-level wrestling talent, when I start hunting wristlocks, he gets very careful in how he approaches me. Normally he completely smashes me, but this gives me some openings to make some moves...before he gets into a dominant position and then I've lost it.
4. A purple belt that I've tried one wristlock on, and then he proceeded to smash me harder than he's ever smashed me before. The exact opposite of #3. And of course, after he gets me in side control, he wristlocks me. And of course, I went full hypocrite and gave him a hard time about using wristlocks.

It's tough to hit wristlocks in rolls. In part because I'm not allowed to do them on white belts (especially newer white belts). In part because upper belts are already grip fighting, which makes it difficult to secure a HKD style grip. I do remember in HKD we did two types of sparring:

• A self-defense version of positional rolls, where one person would create a situation you need to defend yourself from. This was always fun and engaging, and a decent way of pressure-testing if your technique would work in that situation.
• A "live roll" which basically ended up with us never-ending swimming for a 2-on-1 grip, and usually resulted in a standing stalemate.

So it does make sense that using HKD style attacks in BJJ would have a similar level of success. But sometimes I hit them, and I'm trying to hit them more often.

Generally speaking I believe that standing wrist locks are best applied in the moment after a strike or as a superior way to grip a wrist during a bigger take down

However, in addition to the BJJ "compression style" wrist locks I use variations of the two you show (and others) all the time in BJJ rolling

I find they work well for both BJJ standing & ground work. You don't risk anything by going for them and they force people tend to go into defensive mode in the grip fighting stages. However, I only do them to people I know have the skill to not be injured and I do them 50% speed in sparring

 

[skribs]

You don't risk anything by going for them

Except awakening the beast. (The 4th response I've seen to wristlocks).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Today, BJJ guys practice the application of locks, once the fight has gone to the ground... while TMA does the standing part. That middle transition has largely gone missing... mainly because people do not realize that the standing locks and grounded locks are the same.

The standing lock can also take your opponent down to the ground.

 

[gyoja]

The standing lock can also take your opponent down to the ground.

This is one of our drills!

 

[drop bear]

Paul cale recently pulled off an arm wrench in sparring. I will try to hunt it down.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is one of our drills!

More examples of standing lock -> ground lock.

 

[gyoja]

More examples of standing lock -> ground lock.

I teach the first example. I need to learn the second. Thanks for posting this up!

 

[dunc]

The standing lock can also take your opponent down to the ground.

This is a good example of the point I was making about the need to use strikes to set these kind of things up
In my style a similar takedown is used, but it's only really viable if the opponent's spine is already arched backwards and their left side is moving away from you
The version shown here has no real biomechanics behind the the attack and essentially moves the opponent back on balance mid way through. Also given their relative foot positioning it is ridiculously easy to counter (although I appreciate that perhaps it's being demonstrated by beginners)

 

[dunc]

More examples of standing lock -> ground lock.

I've not found the 1st example here to work well in sparring other than as a grip break
The 2nd example is a very powerful technique, but the way it's shown here isn't great TBH. The way it's done here has no breaking of the opponent's structure to set it up so it's easily countered. Also to pull this off against resistance the opponent's shoulder needs to be lower than your own as you wrap the arm

 

[skribs]

This is a good example of the point I was making about the need to use strikes to set these kind of things up

In the arts I'm discussing (BJJ and Hapkido) there isn't really the opportunity to. At least not in the HKD class I was in.

Funny thing is these actually seem to work better in BJJ than in HKD. Whenever we would do symmetrical sparring* in HKD, we were only going for standing wristlocks, and so everyone is just hyper aware of grips and breaking grips and gripfighting. It was basically patty cake.

In BJJ, there's a lot more going on, and so the wristlocks aren't the only thing on people's minds.

It's like how it's easier for me to hit with a kick in Muay Thai than in Taekwondo: there's more targets and more weapons to hit them with, so the kicks are more likely to get past their defenses.

*What I mean by symmetrical sparring is a "live roll" where both folks start in the same position and have the same end goal. Asymmetrical sparring would be positional rolls in BJJ or the type of sparring we normally did in HKD, where one person would play attacker and the other defender. Symmetrical sparring in HKD just sucked and we only did it a few times before it got phased out.

 

[dunc]

In the arts I'm discussing (BJJ and Hapkido) there isn't really the opportunity to. At least not in the HKD class I was in.

Hi
Yes of course
My (badly made) point is that these kind of standing locks need to be set up correctly. This is best done with striking
Mostly folks in BJJ fail when they try these locks because they try them without the correct set up
It is possible (& fun) to do these locks in BJJ, but you have to figure out new ways to achieve the set up without striking. Unfortunately none of the videos above achieve this

 

[Holmejr]

Concerning wrist locks, we train mostly in standup wrist locks, joint locks and breaks. These are typically weapon centered but not always. When well trained these locks reveal themselves whether standup or on the ground. On thing is for certain, a beaten up opponent gives these things up much more readily. Chasing a lock is a real weakness for grab centered arts. The window of opportunity closes rapidly. Flow drills against less than willing opponents help, but a dazed opponent is way more susceptible to your will.

 

[skribs]

Concerning wrist locks, we train mostly in standup wrist locks, joint locks and breaks. These are typically weapon centered but not always. When well trained these locks reveal themselves whether standup or on the ground. On thing is for certain, a beaten up opponent gives these things up much more readily. Chasing a lock is a real weakness for grab centered arts. The window of opportunity closes rapidly. Flow drills against less than willing opponents help, but a dazed opponent is way more susceptible to your will.

The basic template in my TKD class was:

1. Defend (i.e. block a punch, swim a grip)
2. Shock (strike)
3. Control (set the lock)
4. Take-Down
5. Finish (strike or limb destruction)

In HKD we swapped 2 and 3, you first set the grip, and then used the lock to shock into compliance for the take-down.