Differences of Siu Lim Tao?

[aichis]

I watched few videos of sil lim tao in youtube. but it is slightly different from what i thought?

i give 2 examples:

slightly difference...from what my instructor taught me...
what i can say the basic is still there but still, difference is difference...

could someone explain to me?

 

[Vajramusti]

I watched few videos of sil lim tao in youtube. but it is slightly different from what i thought?

i give 2 examples:

slightly difference...from what my instructor taught me...
what i can say the basic is still there but still, difference is difference...

could someone explain to me?

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Those two are not quite the basic Ip Man wing chun sil lim tao.The first one by Wong is non Ip Man wing chun for sure.

I do it this way:

Except for the Fong signature opening and the the double punch in one section that is one version of a Ip man form.

There are other non Ip man varieties of wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

 

[hunt1]

Aichis, I would guess about 80% of all wing chun practiced today is tied to Yip Man,perhaps more. That still leaves 20% of wing chun not going back to Yip Man.

The first link you put up is Pan Nam wing chun. The second is a person that first learned from a line going back to Leung Chun,a son of Leung Jan and then he became a student of Yip Ching. Hence is form has a few differences from Yip Man.

Also many people add or change a bit of the forms to suit themselves by emphasizing things they deem important. As long as the core teaching is there everything is good.

 

[aichis]

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Those two are not quite the basic Ip Man wing chun sil lim tao.The first one by Wong is non Ip Man wing chun for sure.

I do it this way:

Except for the Fong signature opening and the the double punch in one section that is one version of a Ip man form.

There are other non Ip man varieties of wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

owh i see,

does practicing non-ipman wing chun will gives me good or just spoil the wing chun effectiveness?

Fong signatures? do mean augustine fong? i heard he lied bout his lineage, i dunno much however,

I seem many master Wong videos in youtube,
some of his techniques meets what i taught, but got some differences also..

 

[Vajramusti]

Fong signatures? do mean augustine fong? i heard he lied bout his lineage, i dunno much however,

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In rumor mills anythinng can be said-irresponsibly.!!!!! IMO- you don't seem to know what you are talking about. Either you heard wrong or your source was wrong.I am not trying to insult you-just dealing with some facts.

Facts: Fong sifu learned from Ho Kam Ming in Hong Kong 1960 to 1968- then kept in touch after he came to Arizona- brought him here fo HKM's first US seminar- and brought him for seminars several times till HKM's last retirement seminar.
HKM learned directly from Ip man both publicly and privately in Hong Kong regularly for almost 8 years till around 1962 and then stayed in close touch with IM till his death in 1972.
HKM was with IM on the day that IM died. When HKM came back to Macao that day Ip Ching called to say that IM died.I have met HKM quite a few times and as my siging learned from him. Ip Chun and Ip Ching wre left behind in the PRC in 1949 and were not re-united with Ip Man till 1962 in Hong Kong.
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After being in an art for a good period- good students put their own stamp on the flavor of their art. True for both HKM and Fong.In my own field, I am different from my dissertation director. There is one motion in the sil lim tao in which HKM is a little different
from IM. And Fong is different from HKM in a couple of places- particularly in adding the double punch in the section dealing with both hands... including the two handed han and ding.Both give their reasons for what they do.And. some folks have their openings just before settling into the yee gee kim yeung ma.

Wong seems forceful but is not Ip Man wing chun. Pan Nam was basically more Hung Gar
till he learned some wing chun.

Joy Chaudhuri
www. tempewingchun.com

 

[aichis]

Fong signatures? do mean augustine fong? i heard he lied bout his lineage, i dunno much however,

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In rumor mills anythinng can be said-irresponsibly.!!!!! IMO- you don't seem to know what you are talking about. Either you heard wrong or your source was wrong.I am not trying to insult you-just dealing with some facts.
----
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Wong seems forceful but is not Ip Man wing chun. Pan Nam was basically more Hung Gar
till he learned some wing chun.

Joy Chaudhuri
www. tempewingchun.com

Thanks Vajramusti,
for explainig the truth, and maybe you are right i am wrong or my source could be wrong.

however,

can you give the link of yip man's siu lim tao himself?
maybe i could get somethings of it.

 

[mook jong man]

Whenever I ponder what is correct or incorrect in Wing Chun , my mind is always cast back to this ancient chinese proverb.

Two Wongs dont make a right.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

The emphasis in the forms and their execution depend on the lesson or exercise being transferred by the instructor.

Sometimes you emphasize structure proprioception and teaching your body how it must position itself for maximal stability. Others can use it as a dynamic tension exercise. Others still use the exercise to teach other things.

Thus it is dependent on the lesson being taught by the instructor.

Hope that helps.

 

[geezer]

Facts: Fong sifu learned from Ho Kam Ming in Hong Kong 1960 to 1968- then kept in touch after he came to Arizona- brought him here fo HKM's first US seminar- and brought him for seminars several times till HKM's last retirement seminar.
HKM learned directly from Ip man both publicly and privately in Hong Kong regularly for almost 8 years till around 1962 and then stayed in close touch with IM till his death in 1972.

Aichis I study in another branch of Yip Man Wing Chun and can tell you that if you check out the SNT (or SLT) form as done by known Yip Man groups they are all similar to the Augustine Fong version Joy posted, although they will vary in details and flavor. As far as "lying about his lineage", well there are some well known and very knowledgeable sifus who have exaggerated their resumes to build their reps... including my own former sifu! On the other hand I know Joy, and have met Augustine Fong on a couple of occasions. For the record, both have impeccable reputations.

Fong is different from HKM in a couple of places- particularly in adding the double punch in the section dealing with both hands... including the two handed han and ding.Both give their reasons for what they do.

Joy Chaudhuri
www. tempewingchun.com

Joy, I noticed the double punch additions, other than that it's pretty close to the LT version of SNT that I practice. Do you know when Sifu Fong added the double punches? I don't recall them in the Fong version I learned before I studied with LT, but that's been a long time (over 30 years to be precise) so I may not remember correctly.

 

[aichis]

Aichis I study in another branch of Yip Man Wing Chun and can tell you that if you check out the SNT (or SLT) form as done by known Yip Man groups they are all similar to the Augustine Fong version Joy posted, although they will vary in details and flavor. As far as "lying about his lineage", well there are some well known and very knowledgeable sifus who have exaggerated their resumes to build their reps... including my own former sifu! On the other hand I know Joy, and have met Augustine Fong on a couple of occasions. For the record, both have impeccable reputations.

Thanks, I will watch the Fong's SLT by joy then.
Hope I could improve myself.

Greetings.

The emphasis in the forms and their execution depend on the lesson or exercise being transferred by the instructor.

Sometimes you emphasize structure proprioception and teaching your body how it must position itself for maximal stability. Others can use it as a dynamic tension exercise. Others still use the exercise to teach other things.

Thus it is dependent on the lesson being taught by the instructor.

Hope that helps.

Thanks, this explain the differences for me,
but I wonder if the SLT(SNT) changing all the time due to emphasis( of structure or relax or other thing), could the SLT(SNT) becomes ineffective, or less effective to fight?

Whenever I ponder what is correct or incorrect in Wing Chun , my mind is always cast back to this ancient chinese proverb.

Two Wongs dont make a right.

There are maybe even three or four or many Wongs Wing Chun, but only one is Yipman's, maybe??Dont bother this anyway, not important.

If I practice more than one SLT(SNT), could it gives good to me?

 

[Vajramusti]

Joy, I noticed the double punch additions, other than that it's pretty close to the LT version of SNT that I practice. Do you know when Sifu Fong added the double punches? I don't recall them in the Fong version I learned before I studied with LT, but that's been a long time (over 30 years to be precise) so I may not remember correctly.

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Hi Steve-Hope you had a good Christmas. I did. I started with Fong sifu in 1976- the double punch was there from my beginning. It was put in the section that has two handed motions including the down and up - han/ding motions.
The double punch practice helps bringing out even energies - on both (right and left) sides.
When Fong sifu was HKM's student in Macao- HKM had him throw hundreds of double punches while in ygkym and also with footwork.
joy

 

[cwk]

Thanks, I will watch the Fong's SLT by joy then.
Hope I could improve myself.



Thanks, this explain the differences for me,
but I wonder if the SLT(SNT) changing all the time due to emphasis( of structure or relax or other thing), could the SLT(SNT) becomes ineffective, or less effective to fight?



There are maybe even three or four or many Wongs Wing Chun, but only one is Yipman's, maybe??Dont bother this anyway, not important.

If I practice more than one SLT(SNT), could it gives good to me?

IMO, no form is effective for fighting. You must take the things that the form teaches you and then drill them with increasing intensity and aliveness and finally, spar a lot. Forms are good for teaching you things but they can't teach you to fight.

to answer your other question- I would just stick to practicing the SLT that your teacher is using as that is what he will be referring to. Practicing another lineages SLT could just confuse things for you.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

As stated before, execution of just SLT 1,000,000 times won't make you a better fighter. It will teach you HOW to do stuff, depending on the instructor.

In my case, that is what it does; SLT is a vehicle to transmit the HOW things are done. WHAT is done in a fight or self defense situation is another thing that has to be drilled progressively, intensively and purposefully.

And that depends on the Teacher. Since the knowledge of how the mind-body learns is NOT part of the forms, but part of what has to be learned and transmitted by knowledgeable teachers, this is the key.

My advise is to do exactly as you instructor says and ask the HOW and WHY of each movement. Like language, movement has syntax and content and bot hare important for effective communication (beating someone up is a very clear message. )

Hope this helps.

 

[geezer]

If I practice more than one SLT(SNT), could it gives good to me?

I would definitely recommend against practicing different versions, especially as a beginner. In our lineage we use the name Siu Nim Tau or "Little Idea Form". Part of the meaning of that name is that getting a "little idea" right is far more valuable than trying to learn a lot of things at once and doing them poorly! And, SNT is deep. There's a lot of stuff there without trying to learn variant versions whose rationale you may not understand.

Now, on the other hand, some very advanced practitioners do investigate different lineages and what their interpretations have to offer. But that's only after they have a full comprehension of their own system. As others have said, that will only confuse you as a beginner. There's no harm in looking at Youtube clips, but as for what you actually train, remember, keep a "Little Idea" and good luck with your progress!

 

[aichis]

ok, thanks very much guys,
ill be practicing only what my instructor taught me,

but,
I have another question from my friend,
He did the Sil Lim Tao forms perfectly,
but unfortunately, he didnt know why, how, what the movement for...
I mean he just do it w/o understanding the theory and concept of Sil Lim Tao.
Is he will be okay with his WC?

 

[cwk]

ok, thanks very much guys,
ill be practicing only what my instructor taught me,

but,
I have another question from my friend,
He did the Sil Lim Tao forms perfectly,
but unfortunately, he didnt know why, how, what the movement for...
I mean he just do it w/o understanding the theory and concept of Sil Lim Tao.
Is he will be okay with his WC?

I think the lack of replies says it all.
The answer would be a firm NO. Wing chun is an art based on concepts and without a thorough understanding of said concepts there is no practical application.

 

[aichis]

I think the lack of replies says it all.
The answer would be a firm NO. Wing chun is an art based on concepts and without a thorough understanding of said concepts there is no practical application.

Owh yeah, is it so?

IMO, just IMO, it would be okay if he doesnt understand theory but he must spar and practices a lot.

cause if we refer to way of Yip Man taught his student, does he really taught about the concept and theory? I dont think so, why ? I just dont think so...

by the way this is just my opinion, no references or taught by other people or else..
just by my brain. so dont take it seriously...

 

[wtxs]

I think the lack of replies says it all.
The answer would be a firm NO. Wing chun is an art based on concepts and without a thorough understanding of said concepts there is no practical application.

Owh yeah, is it so?

IMO, just IMO, it would be okay if he doesnt understand theory but he must spar and practices a lot.

cause if we refer to way of Yip Man taught his student, does he really taught about the concept and theory? I dont think so, why ? I just dont think so...

by the way this is just my opinion, no references or taught by other people or else..
just by my brain. so dont take it seriously...

PPLLLLEASE ... not again! Hey Zepe ... I'm having an DeJavu man, what about you?

Aichis my boy (the beginner) ... it is not wise to question the collective knowledge and experience of established MA'ist on this forum. Why don't you present what you had voiced here to your teacher and see how he/she would respond ... he/she would be you bud if he/she thinks the way you do, and has no qualification as an teacher.

 

[zepedawingchun]

PPLLLLEASE ... not again! Hey Zepe ... I'm having an DeJavu man, what about you?

Could be Coffeerox in disguise, ya never know.

Aichis my boy (the beginner) ... it is not wise to question the collective knowledge and experience of established MA'ist on this forum. Why don't you present what you had voiced here to your teacher and see how he/she would respond ... he/she would be you bud if he/she thinks the way you do, and has no qualification as an teacher.

Ditto the sentiment. Without knowing and understanding the concepts of the form(s), everything is just a hand movement with no meaning to what the positions can/might/how/are used for.

Ever tried to look at a martial arts books and not read the words or captions, just look at the pictures (expecially a Wing Chun book). Especially with the forms, some pictures make sense, others, you wondered how to use it and how they got from this pose to that pose, wishing it was a video instead so you could get an idea of how the motion was performed (how it got from point a to point b). But it doesn't always tell you why, which is what the concepts help do. Without the concepts to help you with the forms, you may know how it got from point a to point b, but not know why. Without the which, why, when, where, and how of the concepts, you are just lost. And with the concepts, it allows you to use the hand positions several different ways depending on your creativity and the situation.

Example: the basic Wing Chun punch (yut yee kune or some say yut chi kune), everyone knows 1. you use it to strike or hit a target (person). But you can also use it to 2. destroy a block, from the outside going in, executed by your opponent (and move their hands out of the way), expecially when used as a battle punch combination. Or you can use it to 3. clear out space (coming across your centerline, left hand from the right side, right hand from the left side) into the center of your opponent and then use it to also strike. Three different ideas on how to use the basic Wing Chun punch, all three effective but using 1 hand position, the punch. You're not bound by the system to tell you how to use it, just use it.

 

[wtxs]

Could be Coffeerox in disguise, ya never know.

:whip1::whip1::whip1: You bad boy ... not polite to trash trolls by name. :feedtroll But you know what ... he did "rox" our cradle for awhile ... Zzzzzzz