Differences in lineages

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by Emptyhand, Mar 10, 2009.

  1. Emptyhand

    Emptyhand Orange Belt

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    I am trying to learn about WC and I know there are a lot of different lineages: however, I was hoping someone could provide a simplified understanding/version of what each of the following lineages differences are? Thank you.

    Yip Man
    Ip Ching
    Jiu Man
    William Cheung
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2009
  2. almost a ghost

    almost a ghost Blue Belt

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    OK... Who ordered the old can of worms!?
     
  3. AceHBK

    AceHBK Master Black Belt

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    From what I can tell (and please someone correct me if I am wrong....)
    Ip Ching, Jiu Man & William Cheung are all under Yip Man. Therefore they are all under the same lineage. With that being said there are of course differences in each person's WC b/c they have adapted the system to how it fits them best. At the core level they are the same lineage.

    What you probably would like to do is look for non Yip Man lineages of Wing Chun. Here in the states you will primarily only find Yip Man's lineage b/c Yip Man taught in Hong Kong and had students in Hong Kong who left for the U.S. and taught it over here.

    There are many different lineages each with differences. In Guangzhong and of couse Foshan, I am sure you will find MANY different lineages of WC b/c Yip Man wasn't the only person who learned WC, he just happened to be the one who got out to HK and had Bruce Lee which put it to the fore front.

    Funny thing is that you hear of all the WC politics & in-fighting and really it looks like it only comes from those in the Yip Man lineage. (Leung Ting, Emin Boztepe, William Cheung, etc.) "Yip Man taught me how to apply WC while he didn't teach the others." "I was his last student so he taught me the secrets before he died." "I learned it from him early on before he changed the system." A bunch of sillyness (rubbish for my UK people :) )that has the man probably rolling over in his grave once a day and twice on Sunday.

    I am planning on going to China this June for 2 weeks and hope I can see some other lineages while I am there. Although I am learning the Moy Yat lineage (Moy Yat learned from Yip Man) I would love to see how WC is in Foshan where it started. The non Yip Man lineages who have their own strong fighters and whatever else.
     
  4. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Just as a Note

    Yip Man = Ip Man

    Ip Ching is Ip Man's younger son

    Ip Chun is Ip Man's older son.
     
  5. koenig

    koenig Yellow Belt

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    I know that WC people are the most political of any martial art regarding their lineage, but how did it all start? I never really cared too much about that cuz I was too busy training. lol.
     
  6. Emptyhand

    Emptyhand Orange Belt

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    Oops, sorry I did not mean to open an old can of worms.

    I was more curious if there were identifiable attributes that differed from one another as AceHBK alluded to, that perhaps the system(s) has been adapted to one that fits them individually.

    I guess I was looking at the aspect of are there more kicks, or different types of kicks for example... this is not restricted to kicks either but any significant differences in the respective training aspects. I can't think of another way to phrase it, sorry...

    Perhaps were there movements that were added or dropped or performed differently.
     
  7. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    In a perfect world, it would be nice to be able to objectively compare how different branches interpret the art. But, the way things actually are, you will mostly hear a lot of trash talk about the other guys. The best advice I can give is to keep your eyes open, visit different schools, and try to find a good fit. And remember, good fighters are good fighters regardless of lineage. They train hard and find a way to make things work.

    BTW what lineage was Joe Lewis? ...or Mohammed Ali? ...or Sugar Ray Leonard? They didn't become famous by talking about who they trained under!
     
  8. AceHBK

    AceHBK Master Black Belt

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    You know I wonder the exact samething myself especially with the non Yip Man lineages. Not too much is known about them outside of China b/c they didn't reach overseas as Yip Man's did.

    Im sure if you was to go to China you would certainly hear about this lineage and that lineage and how they differ and it not be an argument, but rather how they were taught.

    Most people on this board if not all from what I have seen mainly know just the Yip Man lineage b/c that is usually all that is available. The controversy and arguments again, ironically only come from the those under Yip Man's who feel like they are the teachers favorite.
     
  9. Emptyhand

    Emptyhand Orange Belt

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    Thank you for the posts.

    I guess my best bet is to do a lot of research and see if I can find some of the differences.
     
  10. Nabakatsu

    Nabakatsu Brown Belt

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    One thing I do know that could help is that in Leung Tings lineage as well as EBMAS, Emin Boztepe's martial art system, our fighting stance has ALL the weight on the back leg, which I think is unique to us. Racking my brain trying to think of other things.. if I come up with something I'll come back and post :)
     
  11. Observer

    Observer White Belt

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    There is no two si-hing-dei with the same Wing Chun. Hence, through time there are many variation of Wing Chun. In the past only the 'best' variants survive but today all are left to their own devices to teach and pass on what they purport as Wing Chun.
     
  12. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    The WT organizations stemming from Leung Ting have several defining traights:

    Stance is a major one. As Nabakatsu said, in WT we weight the back leg in the advancing step position. The objective is to keep the front leg unweighted so we can lift the leg to kick or defend in an instant, without having to shift our body first and telegraph our intent.

    And in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma, or Character Two stance, we keep our weight centered over our feet. When we do "stance turning", we turn by shifting our weight from the center to one side, and then pivoting the unweighted foot. In this manner, we turn one foot at a time, on the center of the foot. The objective is to have maximum stability by always having one foot unmoving and rooted, even when turning.

    Another, even more important defining feature, is cultivating the quality of springy-energy. In all the WT branches, you strive to make your arms , legs, and even your torso, like springy bamboo. So, if a powerful punch crosses your guard hand or man-sau, the incoming punch rolls and bends your arm into a bong-sau, as though bending a springy cane, and the punch is deflected. As your opponent withdraws his punch, the bong-sau springs back, following the retreating energy. And when your arm finds an opening, it snaps free, releasing the stored-up bent-spring energy, whipping out and striking your opponent, as though your arm had a mind of it's own.

    In this sense, we are taught to avoid throwing up a bong-sau or tan-sau. etc. of our own volition. Rather we are taught to spring forward to attack, and only form these defensive positions as our attacking arm meets opposing force...again causing the spring to bend.

    By extension, this idea of training our body to act like a spring is also applied to our stance turning and steps, in accordance with the often quoted WC/WT motto "Stay with what comes, follow the retreat, and thrust forward when the hand is freed". I believe the EBMAS version begins with the words, "Surge forward..." appropriately reflecting the aggressive spirit of Master Emin. Other WC groups also use this saying or "kuit", although each translates it a bit differently. For example Mook has another version as his signature line. But I do not know how many, if any of the other WC branches emphasize this WT concept of reactive, springy energy to form defensive techniques. I will say that I've met more than a few WC guys that did seem to share that wicked springy quality in their offense. Punches that hit with a snap like a giant rubber band. Ouch!
     
  13. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Well, in the past the proponents of the second rate versions had to keep a pretty low profile, or get their butts kicked! But when that happens in modern times, the Butt-kickee counterattacks the Butt-kicker with assault charges and a lawsuit. Or at very least a barrage of bad publicity.

    On the other hand, it's probably just as well people don't go around kicking the butt of every second rate instructor. I'd have to duct tape a pillow to my ****.
     
  14. dnovice

    dnovice Blue Belt

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    Hahaha.
     
  15. bs10927

    bs10927 Orange Belt

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    don't know what the differences are but i'm studying under the Jiu Wan line. from what I know from Jason Lau's website, Jiu Wan and Ip were kung fu brothers studying under Chan wa shun.
    so it's probably similar. seeing Ip performing SLT on video, it definitely is similar there.
     
  16. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Interesting. Then that would be the same lineage as Yip Man's, just splitting off a generation earlier. Are there any good clips on youtube?
     
  17. futsaowingchun

    futsaowingchun Brown Belt

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    That is the best way to look at it.
     
  18. futsaowingchun

    futsaowingchun Brown Belt

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    I'm from a non Yip Man lineage wing chun . There are others as well you simple have to do research.
     
  19. bs10927

    bs10927 Orange Belt

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    not that i know of. don't see much of it on line. the only vid i'm aware of is by Jason Lau.
     
  20. KamonGuy2

    KamonGuy2 Master of Arts

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    Just to add fire to the flames...

    Many think of Yip Man as a very important part of wing chun history. The reason why was that before the 1940s, chun was a very closed style with instructors teaching it one on one etc

    Yip Man wasn't the first to open the doors but he was amongst the best.
    He produced very good students, including his sons and as well as the late great Bruce Lee

    This meant that more and more people went to learn directly from him and his lineage

    Sadly, a few individuals, such as William Cheung and Leung Ting started getting into an argument about 'special techniques' that Yip Man had shown them behind closed doors

    Cheung has even gone so far to build the belief in his students that any other wing chun other than his is wrong and 'modified' wing chun

    That is why there are so many politics - mainly because of ego and pride and the desire to make money

    The style I train in really does not focus on lineage or whether it is 'correct' wing chun - we merely know it works damn well

    Master Chan can answer any question about techniques and why we do them, which to me is the sign of a good martial artist (as opposed to an instructor who says 'because Yip Man taught it that way')

    It is nice to know your history, but don't focus on it too much. If a one arm elf taught me how to do good martial arts, it wouldn't make a difference to me123
     

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