Did Jujutsu and Karate ever exchange techniques?

Discussion in 'Jujutsu / Judo' started by Acronym, Sep 18, 2020.

  1. Acronym

    Acronym Master Black Belt

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    In Judo atemi waza, there's a lot of similarities to very early pre war Karate with kicks only to the groin or knee, and ball of the foot as point of contact. And of course the judo chop:D.

    Since Karate is from Okinawa, are these overlaps in philosophy purely coincidental or did Karate borrow some of its striking and philosophy from Jujutsu? I know Judo throws had some influence on Funakoshi.
     
  2. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    Look at Wado-ryu Karate.
     
  3. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Karate is a rather big world and can refer to literally hundreds of systems with influences from China, Okinawa, Japan, Korea, USA, Europe, etc. Not to mention the continuing cross-pollination back and forth. They have taekwondo and kyokushin schools on Okinawa now after all.

    So the answer depends on which karate you are asking about. Certainly the founder of Wado-ryu was a jujutsu expert before learning karate from Funakoshi and he blended aspects of both to create Wado-ryu. For 'pure' Okinawan karate styles, I would look to southern Chinese systems for their influences with low kicking.
     
  4. Acronym

    Acronym Master Black Belt

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    Leaving aside Wado Ryu yu where the connection is explicit. Here's what one book recounts, whi DSC_0002.JPG
     
  5. Acronym

    Acronym Master Black Belt

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    Continued DSC_0000_BURST20200918201801734.JPG
     
  6. Acronym

    Acronym Master Black Belt

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    Every single kick in atemi waza is low but powerful. E a t same philosophy as pre WW2 Karate Screenshot_20200918-202509.png
     
  7. Acronym

    Acronym Master Black Belt

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    Front kick, side front kick, and stomp kick, is what the Kodokan atemi contained
     
  8. wab25

    wab25 2nd Black Belt

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    Danzan Ryu Jujitsu and Kempo Karate certainly did. The founders of the respective arts trained together and trained each others students. The students also fought each other at events and competitions. Not only did they borrow techniques, but they outright stole techniques back and forth and even modified the way they did their own techniques to account for the other guys.
     
  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    yeah. Kind of like how Jesus was Jewish not Christian. The founders of karate didn't do karate.
     
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  10. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    So you are asking about Shotokan/Gichin Funakoshi's karate? As I alluded to, you have to be specific when asking these kinds of questions. Yes, Funakoshi and Kano knew each other. At Kano's invitation Funakoshi gave a karate demonstration at the Kodokan which was very successful and gave him the avenue to stay in Japan and teach.

    It is possible and maybe even likely that there was some cross-pollination there, but Funakoshi's shuri-te would have contained plenty of low kicks too.
     
  11. Acronym

    Acronym Master Black Belt

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    The historical account was Shotokan neutral. It did not single out "Shotokan" in any way until a certain change took place.
     
  12. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I don't follow the distinction you are choosing to make. Yoshitaka "Gigo" Funakoshi was Gichin's son. He learned karate primarily from his father. So "Shotokan" is the style being discussed in the book you are showing, though certainly there was an evolution from Gichin to Gigo to Nakayama.

    Karate is not all the same. You have to talk specifically about the type and lineage you want to discuss.

    Good night.
     
  13. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Brown Belt

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    Many Samurai swordsmen were well versed in jujutsu style of combat as it was possible to find oneself disarmed. Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura (a teacher of both Funakoshi and Itosu) was also an adept in Jigen ryu swordsmanship. While it may be unknown exactly what Matsumura learned in this Satsuma style of sword, it is quite possible that jujutsu was included in his study and may have been passed down to his karate (toude) students.
     
  14. Acronym

    Acronym Master Black Belt

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    I just told you that the account prior to Gigis influence on high kicks was not pertaining to any particular Karate styles, as described in the book
     
  15. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I think we are just not communicating well with each other for whatever reason. That is fine. Good day.
     
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  16. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Brown Belt

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    To sum up the main question topic - There are several historical opportunities, some documented, some not, for jujutsu type techniques getting into the system of karate, some of which were already mentioned. There was a lot of cross-fertilization in the 1800's and turn of the century since many top martial artists trained with each other. Also in more recent times, teachers have blended other styles into their curriculum.

    All this is in addition to the native Okinawan grappling arts and early karate grabbing/twisting techniques (tuite). Most of karate history involves various blendings. Note, also, that Okinawa's location puts it in the center of trade routes between Japan, China, Philippines, and S.E. Asia. This, no doubt, infused many martial art ideas into the development of Okinawan karate.
     
  17. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Very short answer..."Old Style" karate (before the advent of styles) had throws (and other grappling) in it. When Funakoshi took "karate" to Japan, he made several changes to it. 1) He changed names to sound more Japanese 2) He created the "kendo-style distancing of the kumite drills when karate was designed for close quarters 3) To differentiate it from Judo/Ju-jitsu he removed most, if not all, of the throws/grappling to make it into a punch/block/kick striking art. One prime example is Wansu kata. Funakoshi changed the name to Enpi and removed the well known "fireman's carry throw" from the kata and replaced it with a jumping/spinning move. Other changes included how the class was set up and taught (going from a family style training to military style of rank line ups and coordinated movements with everyone doing it the exact same way).

    Jigoro Kano helped Funakoshi a lot with making the art more acceptable to the Japanese culture.
     
  18. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    Every person I've ever known in the Martial world has learned things from people outside of their own dojo. The few that haven't...haven't been out of their own dojo yet. :)
     
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  19. KenpoDave

    KenpoDave 2nd Black Belt

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    The book “Secrets of the Samurai” states that jujutsu encompassed the unarmed fighting methods and that the striking and kicking arts were part of that. Essentially, the karate styles are evolutions of systemized, isolated practice of a subset of jujutsu. All karate techniques are jujutsu techniques. Not all jujutsu techniques are karate techniques.

    This is not to disparage karate. The same book comments that the practitioner who isolated and became expert in the striking and kicking arts made his jujutsu much more formidable.
     
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  20. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    That book is known to not be entirely historically accurate. There was a big "re-write" by the Japanese to remove all traces of Chinese influence and reference as to where their karate came from. I am NOT saying that their jujutsu didn't have "atemi waza" striking to it, but it was not the developed skill set that was introduced from karate. JJJ used their strikes much like aikido does. A quick strike to facilitate a lock/throw/takedown, but it was never the primary technique in the older JJJ. This was also one of the main reasons that Kano exchanged ideas with Funakoshi and added defenses against karate techniques to their curriculum, it was something they hadn't seen before in that manner.123
     
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