Did Japan have Kiai Jutsu before 20th century? What happened to it today?

Discussion in 'Japanese Martial Arts - General' started by Steven Lee, Jan 30, 2019.

  1. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Did Japan have Kiai Jutsu before 20th century? What happened to it today?

    I was just googling, and I found some articles on Kiai Jutsu in Japan.

    FightingArts.com - Kiai Jutsu: The Shout Used As A Weapon

    Kiai-Jutsu | Shuyokan Ryu Martial Arts Center

    I assumed that Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu (Kiai/Kihap Techniques) was solely Korean origin because Japan doesn't have it today. But did Japan have this sport in the medieval time? If so, what happened to it today? Where is it?

    I don't mind Japan also having had Breaking Game regardless of Korean Charyuk/Kihapsul influence as long as it's clear that Korea always has had Breaking/Tameshiwari regardless of Karate. It is just that, I don't want to lie; I don't want to share credit. Hence, I was saying that Japan didn't have Breaking Game; Japan got the idea of Breaking Game from Korean Kiaijutsu, not from China. Also, 1933's Karate's Breaking/Tameshiwari did not rotate shoulder for hand strike; Korean sports rotated shoulder for hand strikes with old proofs; Korean sports stacked speed & power instead of implosion & explosion with old proofs. Even if Japan had Kiaijutsu regardless of Korean influence, Karate still copied hand strike techniques from Korea. 1933's Karate's Breaking/Tameshiwari didn't use such techniques.

    On top of it (it is clear Karate & Mas Oyama copied Korean hand strike for Breaking), the question is whether Japan got the idea of Breaking Game from Korean Kiai Jutsu or whether Japan also always has had Kiai Jutsu and Breaking Game. If Japan also always has had Breaking & Kiai Jutsu, what happened to Japanese Kiai Jutsu today? That's my question. If Japan really did have Kiai Jutsu in the medieval era, I'm gonna have to fix Wikipedia article on Breaking. Breaking (martial arts) - Wikipedia It's also probably going to "feel better" for Japanese ego.
     
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  2. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    Yes, EJ Harrison devoted an entire chapter to the practice in his book Fighting Spirit of Japan, first published in 1913, about his experiences in Japan in the 1880-1890's
     
  3. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    If Japan really did have Kiaijutsu, then I gotta fix some Wiki articles I wrote on Breaking/Tameshiwari. What happened to Kiaijutsu? How come it's extinct in Japan today? If Japan had Kiaijutsu, then Japan also had Breaking before Mas Oyama. Still, it was Mas Oyama that made it into modern Karate's practice culture & curriculum. Also, they still copied Korean hand strike as 1933's Karate's Breaking didn't show shoulder-rotation.

    "The fighting spirit of Japan and other studies" by Ernest John Harrison. Thanks.

    That's still near Japan's occupation of Korea. Japan could have adopted that sport from Korea. Is there any source that proves Japan having a sport called Kiaijutsu in the medieval era?
     
  4. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    Just like the breaking, Korean arts dont have any claim to being "first"
    Kiai is a spirit shout, a universal element of fighting arts across the world and across time - from war cries to primitive grunts

    if you want to get into the actual sound used then there are unique differences used at different times in specific regions
     
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  5. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Well, Korean Breaking was before Japan. Also, Korean wrestling was before China. (China credited wrestling to horned helmet people which included Korean back then.) Also, Subak was hurrying of wrestling takedown/knockdown (which is how boxing likely started in Sumer).

    Kiaijutsu is different from plain Kiai. That's not what I was looking for. Kiaijutsu is feats of strength including Breaking/Tameshiwari, pulling a heavy bus with barehand, etc. Just because you had Kiai doesn't mean you had Kiaijutsu. It's just a matter of naming perception. It's just that I saw some people claiming Japan had Kiaijutsu in the older days.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  6. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Wrong, do you have any idea how far back they can trace Chinese wrestling?

    Basically with that statement you are now claiming that Korean martial arts predates Chinese martial arts

    Korea appears in history when? I believe it was around the mid 600's AD. China appears as a unified nation in the Qin dynasty 220BC and there were "Chinese" before that, as far back as 2070BC. And Korea was part of China in the Han Dynasty (206BC - 220AD)
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  7. BrendanF

    BrendanF Green Belt

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    Hilarious comedy - would recommend.

    Seriously though, are you 12? The ideas you have presented around MA 'history' are so elementary and off base it's laughable.

    I mean - you do know Karate isn't 'Japanese' right?
     
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  8. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Do you realize, Every warring culture had a war cry. A sound, a kiai.
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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  10. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    To my knowledge breaking clay tiles was done in Okinawa. I am under the impression that it was more of a party trick than anything else. I have to assume it was a practice carried over from China where folklore tell us traveling martial artists would preform for crowds, then hawk there goods. Snake oil sales men.:)
    I think the wrestling in China that was mentioned was Mongolian Wrestling. ...not exactly Korean.
     
  11. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    China credited wrestling to horned helmet people which included Korean. Also, Korean wrestling is identical to Scandinavian wrestling, which suggests that it was before the time of China.

    Breaking clay tiles were done in Okinawa when? Is there proof on it? Also, I thought we were going with either "Japan also had Kiaijutsu Breaking" or "Karate's Breaking started from Iron Palm's Breaking". Also, we are now focusing on the hand strike Mas Oyama taught Karate. Its origin is Korean because Korean historically recorded that hand strike, that's what I'm saying. Shoulder rotation for hand strike & stacking speed & power unlike Karate's explosion & implosion. 1933's Karate Breaking had square stationary shoulder without rotating shoulder for hand strike. Mas Oyama taught that shoulder has to rotate for hand strike in Breaking/Tameshiwari. I'm saying that technique & knowhow is from Korean origin cause Korean was historically recorded to possess that trait. (& because Mas Oyama was a Korean, he saw Korean techniques done.)

    I welcome counter-evidences & counter-logic. My contents evolve with more inputs. I'm ok with that.
     
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  12. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Nope, Chinese wrestling is estimated at over 6000 years old. But historical records go back to almost 5000 years ago. Korea did not even exist at that time and it was not even part of China yet, which it was during the Han Dynasty. So how is it that Korean wrestling predated Chinese wrestling when Chinese wrestling predates Korea.

    Chinese wrestling also predates anything you would refer to as Scandinavian too and Scandinavian wrestling is first mentioned in the 1300s..first mention in a historical record about Chinese wrestling shows up in 2697 BC.... so...first what does a similarity between Scandinavian wrestling, Chinese Wrestling and Korean wrestling have to do with proving your point? and 2nd, how does a similarity to Scandinavian wrestling to Korean wrestling show it predates Chinese wrestling when neither existed before Chinese wrestling.

    So to be blunt, you're wrong.

    I'm going to recommend this again. stay away from Chinese associations to prove your point, because all it will do is undermine you since you know very little about Chinese martial arts history. You are having a hard enough time convincing folks about your Korean martial arts history hypothesis, throw in China and you will not get anywhere.
     
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  13. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    It amuses me that chinese martial Arts might have been developed by Vikings in Iceland. True or not. :)
     
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  14. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    True enough, except the Vikings don't actually seem to have worn the horned helms so commonly attributed to them.

    But always remember the Viking motto: It's rape, pillage THEN burn.
     
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  15. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    To be clear, not much is known about early Scandinavian history, but it is clear they had a well established culture as farmers, sailers, and warriors as early as 1000bc, and its likely they wrestled.

    Regarding a 6000 year history, that seems like a stretch, unless you're counting precivilization.
     
  16. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Seems a safe bet. You put two kids together for very long, and they're likely to wrestle. Put two kids together that don't have TV and the interwebs, and they'll wrestle even sooner.

    Same for two adults, especially if you add booze.
     
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  17. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    6000 maybe, that is why I said estimated. However China is the longest contiguous civilization on the planet first dynasty is Xia Dynasty ( 2070-1600 BCE) and there is a historical reference to Chinese wrestling that is far, far sooner than 1000 years. It is almost 5000 years old from 2697 BC (4716 years ago to be exact)

    But the bottom-line here is that not only did Korean wrestling predate Chinese wrestling. Korea did not predate Chinese wrestling and Korea being part of China in the Han Dynasty does not predate Chinese wrestling. However Korea being part of the Han dynasty does predate Korea
     
  18. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Whatever China tells themselves, I'm just going to keep saying that Korea has had wrestling (& its hurrying sport, Subak/Shoubo) before China even started. Scandinavia & Mesopotamia had the same wrestling as Korea, but Korea didn't come from them for the last 5000 years. The migration was before that. Because the migration was before China even started, Altaic people had wrestling (& Subak/Shoubo, which was the hurrying of wrestling with strikes) before China.
     
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  19. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Whatever China says!? it is documented historical fact stated by historians.... historians you seem to want to contact to prove whatever it is your trying to prove. So no matter what the historical facts are you are going to deny them to keep pushing your ridiculous supposition.

    And now are you claiming that the Korean people are descendants of Scandinavians and Mesopotamians?... if so, do you know how incredibly ridiculous that claim is.

    Korea did not exist before China and Korea did not exist before Chinese wrestling. Your claims are absolutely unfounded and a completely ridiculous supposition at best.....
     
  20. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    So Korea had wrestling before Korea had Korea?

    Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

    No need to let facts affect your delusions.
     
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