History of Korean Breaking before Karate started Breaking

Discussion in 'Korean Martial Arts - General' started by Steven Lee, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Just updating contents. Mostly because it's hard to read.

    I'm a bit hostile to Japan, but I'm not a troll. I'm not doing this for the fun of causing anxiety. I'm just spreading the truth and the facts. I feel obligation to it. I don't want my country Korea to lose nor share any of its traditional wealth, which is why it's important to clearly understand what culture & techniques belong to whom. Reddit is easier to check image files. For some reason, some websites are not friendly to image file links.

    History of Korean Breaking before Karate started Breaking : kyokushin

    I'm just trying to spread the facts in the related topics in some subreddits. Shoulder-push means turning (pushing, rotating) shoulder forward when punching instead of the shoulders being stationary & square.

    It's "OK" that Karate copied the idea of Breaking/Tameshiwari from a power circus that predates Karate. It certainly doesn't bother me who is not a Japanese. It hurts Japanese's ego that their "proud" Breaking/Tameshiwari is not a Japanese invention but a Korean sport, but facts should be facts regardless of ego & greed. Also, it's not just the idea of Breaking Game that Mas Oyama copied into Karate. Mas Oyama also taught Korean hand strikes to Karate, with specific characteristics like shoulder-push & stacking speed (& power) for hand strike.

    Even China had Breaking/Tameshiwari, but Japan was exposed to Korean Kiaijutsu/Kihapsul, not the Chinese Breaking. Also, Mas Oyama (Korean, Choi) taught Karate Korean hand strike, not Chinese hand strike. (1927's Flag Fight, Gitssaum, pictures have shoulder-push for punching chest. 300 years old Ikmyung Yang's Hand Breaking record in Korea mentions using Yongryuk which means stacking speed & power. 300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop in Korea had a punching technique pushing shoulder.)

    ==Korean Breaking predating Karate's Breaking==

    In today's Korea, Breaking/Tameshiwari is often done by Taekwondo, Kooksundo (Korean Taoist Qigong), Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu, Taekkyeon, Gyeoksul, etc. Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu is a power circus, power performance art, power magic show, sidewalk performance art which had Breaking/Tameshiwari before Karate, predating Karate & Karate's Breaking. It is correlated with Chinese Qigong & Korean Kooksundo, Seonsul. Chinese Iron Palm is also known to have shown breaking layers of cinder blocks with a straight palm slap 100 years ago (photographed) as well as driving a car across a human belly lying on the ground (Charyuk shows such feats of strength as well, not just Breaking). Shoulder-push means turning (pushing, rotating) shoulder forward when punching instead of the shoulders being stationary & square. Yong means stacking speed, power, mass in an accelerating manner instead of explosion & implosion.

    In 1934's reputable Korean newspaper, there's a sport called Yuk-ki breaking soft shingles (roof tiles) with fist strike.

    https://i.imgur.com/UqPLaLW.png

    There are many reputable & old Korean newspaper records that show the derivations of the name Charyuk (like Yuk-ki) as well as the explicit name Kihapsul together.

    https://i.imgur.com/GqgCXfa.png

    In 1692, Korean Ikmyung Yang broke a stone with hand strike using Yongryuk (stacking speed, power, mass in the entire body

    https://i.imgur.com/yJFsJWN.png

    400 years ago, there were many Korean history books all recording the same event of Korean Hand Breaking a large stone as big as a Soban table.

    https://i.imgur.com/d3vM6SR.png

    Korean had martial arts (or Fight Game, pseudo-martial arts) like Subak which had frontal slap & punch like Taekkyeon (including Yetbub), Gwonbeop, Gitssaum (Flag Fight), Pyunssaum, Sibak. However, Breaking's strikes were created in the power circus Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu by trial & error trying with common sense strikes from everyday-life. The strikes improved; they started teaching what's already been created & improved (from common sense hitting, techniques are developed & more variety is added) including various hand shapes like Knife Hand. They teach the power circus (including Breaking's strikes) already created & improved without starting over the creation process at each generation. Strikes are learned by learning power circus including Breaking; martial arts were not involved. This is how Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu have worked in Korean society anyway regardless of how it was for some other sport which copied Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu.

    As for the difficulty of this creation process which some people object (they claim Breaking must have gotten its strikes from martial arts), the difficulty level is about the same whether people invent powerful strikes in martial arts then adopt them in Breaking or whether people invent powerful strikes in Breaking/Tameshiwari power circus. The process & the difficulty of creating powerful strikes are the same whether it's done for martial arts or for circus. In the early 20th century, Korean Kiaijutsu/Kihapsul was popular in Japan. Later in the middle 20th century, this Korean Breaking was formally adopted by Karate through Korean Mas Oyama including specific Korean traits like Yongryuk stacking speed, power, mass for strikes & pushing shoulder for hand strike. "Among Mas Oyama’s many accomplishments, he is perhaps best known for introducing tameshiwari or “stone breaking” into the practice of modern karate."

    Sosai Masutatsu Oyama, The Founder of Kyokushin Karate - Kyokushin-kan International Honbu

    Mas Oyama is also famous for using dogs & cows as a target of Breaking/Tameshiwari, which doesn't necessarily involve Karate for hitting or fighting animals.

    Absence of evidence is evidence of absence about existence in logic & academia. (Burden of Proof fallacy. Proving Non-Existence fallacy.) There are explicit references that Mas Oyama introduced Tameshiwari to Karate, including Kyokushin Karate's official words. Also, there are explicit words that Japan's Breaking/Tameshiwari was Korean Kiaijutsu/Kihapsul 100 years ago. Also, Mas Oyama added a hand strike to Karate that wasn't Karate techniques. Pushing (rotating, turning) shoulder in hand strike is from Korea, not from Karate. Stacking speed & power instead of explosion & implosion is from Korea, not from Karate. Mas Oyama taught these Korean techniques to Karate's hand strike for Tameshiwari/Breaking. Mas Oyama was a Korean.

    As far as the academia goes, Japan didn't have Breaking/Tameshiwari. Korea didn't invent Breaking, but Japan copied Breaking from Korean Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu which existed before Karate's Breaking and was well known in Japan. Also, Mas Oyama introduced a new hand strike to Karate which pushes (rotating, turning) shoulder and stacks speed & power unlike Karate's implosion & explosion. That technique is from Korea; there are many Korean historical records describing such techniques with pictures & writings. Also, Breaking/Tameshiwari has nothing to do with striking martial arts including Taekwondo & Karate. Trial & error with history created Breaking including its powerful strikes. After the strikes were created, they were taught without starting over at each generation; the techniques were practiced by directly practicing Breaking, not by practicing martial arts. As a bonus fact, Korean martial arts including Sibak & Subak & Gwonbeop had powerful frontal strikes.


    It is undeniable that Karate didn't invent Breaking. Karate didn't even copy from Chinese Breaking. Korean Breaking Game (power circus) Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu (Kihap/Kiai Techniques) existed in Japan back then; it was well known. So, Japan got the idea of Breaking/Tameshiwari from the well known Korean sport, not from China. Also, aside from the idea of Breaking/Tameshiwari, Japanese Karate does not rotate shoulder in hand strike. Japanese Karate does not even stack speed & power from slow to fast; they use implosion & explosion. There are Korean historical records that Korean had those techniques. (1927's Flag Fight, Gitssaum, pictures have shoulder-rotation for punching chest. 300 years old Ikmyung Yang's Hand Breaking record in Korea mentions using Yongryuk which means stacking speed & power. 300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop in Korea had a punching technique rotating shoulder.) Mas Oyama was a Korean (Choi). When Mas Oyama taught these techniques to Karate's Tameshiwari, he was copying Korean techniques into Japanese Karate. Also, even the idea of Breaking/Tameshiwari was not copied from China but the well known Korean sport Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu.

    ==Karate Breaking's history before Mas Oyama==

    Breaking/Tameshiwari was not a part of Karate culture & curriculum no more than it's not a Kung Fu's culture & curriculum. It was from power circus, sidewalk performance art, feats of strength which were sometimes dabbled by martial artists including Judo blackbelt Masato Tamura who performed stone Breaking in 1940 then testified it was not Karate but Kiaijutsu/Kihapsul (Kihap/Kihal Techniques). The concept of Breaking is not from martial arts but from the traditional feats of strength in East Asia common in China & Korea 100 years ago, which Japan was exposed to via Korean Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu/Breaking. Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu can be self-taught or taught by a Kihapsul performer; powerful strikes were created by trial & error with common sense strikes; these strikes were practiced by practicing Breaking, not by practicing martial arts.

    Similar to how Japanese Jiujitsu and Judo have done Breaking/Tameshiwari via Korean Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu/Charyuk (Kihap/Kiai Techniques), Karate has also imitated the Power Circus's Breaking in 1933. It was not a part of Karate culture back then, but the Karate performer dabbled in that power circus to perform Breaking/Tameshiwari. Kamesuke Higashioona was photographed in 1933 for Hand Breaking. Because this was before the time when Mas Oyama taught Korean striking techniques, his shoulders are square and stationary instead of the striking side's shoulder being pushed (turned, rotated) forward. This was also before the time that Mas Oyama introduced Tameshiwari/Breaking to be a modern Karate's culture and curriculum. Shoulder-push means turning (pushing, rotating) shoulder forward when punching instead of the shoulders being stationary & square. There are Korean records how Korean rotated shoulder for hand strike and stacked speed & power for hand Breaking 100 years ago in Gitssaum (Flag Fight, fist fighting game), 300 years ago in Muyedobotongji Gwonbeop, 300 years ago in Ikmyung Yang's Yongryeok (stacking speed & power) breaking a stone with a hand strike. Kokyushin Karate & Mas Oyama (Choi, Korean) spread these Korea techniques into modern Karate's Tameshiwari/Breaking; Kyokushin is known as the strongest Karate even today.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._1933_Hand_Breaking_without_shoulder-push.jpg

    According to the book "The fighting spirit of Japan and other studies" by Ernest John Harrison published in 1913, Japan also had had a sport called Kiaijutsu. Kihapsul/Charyuk/Kiaijutsu is not solely a Korean sport but also existed in Japan, including Breaking/Tameshiwari, before the time of Karate and Mas Oyama. Breaking/Tameshiwari concept existed in all China, Korea, Japan. However, Kamesuke Higashioona's Breaking shows hand strike techniques identical to Karate but different from Mas Oyama & Korean hand strike, which rotate shoulder while stacking speed & power without any implosion & explosion. Mas Oyama introduced such Korean strike into Karate's Tameshiwari/Breaking while he introduced Breaking to be a culture & curriculum of modern Karate practice.
     
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  2. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    I updated my contents.

    Gichin Funakoshi was also videotaped for performing Tameshiwari as well as rotating shoulder for hand strikes. Hence, the hand strike Mas Oyama taught in his Tameshiwari/Breaking wasn't from Korean hand strike but was common in that era, existing in the extension of regular Karate as well as traditional Korean martial arts including Gwonbeop, Sibak (different Taekkyeon which includes punching like Nalparam, Prize Fight) & Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu (Korean had powerful Hand Breaking independent of Karate). As for Karate performing Tameshiwari/Breaking before the time of Mas Oyama, it could be either from how Japan also had had Kiaijutsu or from Chinese Iron Palm's Breaking/Tameshiwari culture.

    However, regardless of Karate doing Tameshiwari (including rotating shoulder for hand strike just like Korean hand strikes) from Iron Palm's Breaking culture, Korean had a different culture. For Korea, Breaking was part of feats of strength, a power circus called Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu/Charyuk.

    https://i.imgur.com/UqPLaLW.png

    Korean had powerful Breaking including Hand Breaking independent of Karate's Breaking. Even the techniques are traditional including motions stacking speed & power as well as rotating shoulders. I showed references that Korean had all those.

    Yetbub is basically wrestlers street fighting in rules & postures including holding arm & punching at the same time like 1927's Gitssaum (Flag Fight) pictures (except that strikes are more powerful than a plain street fighting by shoulder-rotation, body momentum, Yongryuk stacking speed & power). In 1927's Flag Fighting & 300 years old Korean Muyedobotongji Kwonbeop, shoulder-rotation (turning, pushing the striking side's shoulder forward) is observed for punching front for extra mass, strength, speed. Shoulder-push means turning (pushing, rotating) shoulder forward when punching instead of the shoulders being stationary & square.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtgeqsmWwAE9by-.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/jaTY5Zr.jpg

    As for the texture of Korean strikes, Korean uses Yong which means stacking speed & power in the entire body including arms. Even Korean Ikmyung Yang's 1692's record of breaking a stone with hand strike used Yongryuk.

    https://i.imgur.com/yJFsJWN.png

    So, Korean had Breaking Game including Hand Breaking independent of Karate's Breaking. Karate had it; Korean had it too. Even the techniques were the same, but Korean had those techniques independent of Karate. Also, regardless of fighting martial arts doing Breaking for China & Japan, Korea was different. Korea's Breaking was from a power circus, not from fighting martial arts.

    Also, Korean had fighting martial arts hitting with any body part including punching in Sibak (Taekkyeon-Yetbeob, Nalparam, Pyunssaum, Prize-Fight) & Gwonbeop (Mas Oyama also testified Korean Gwonbeop existing in his book "Karate for a million people").
     
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  3. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    These grapes make my face go all scrunchy.
     
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  4. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Korean Breaking was not from fighting martial arts. It was from power circus regardless of how it was for Japan and China. There are historical records proving that Korean Breaking was from power circus Kihapsul/Charyuk/Kiaijutsu. Masato Tamura testified that Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu/Charyuk had Breaking. Aside from how Iron Palm & Karate managed Breaking, Korea had Breaking as power circus; Masato Tamura testified such form of Breaking really existed in 1940.

    Also, circular slap, scrunchie side hitting nonsense is a lie for Subak. Subak had straight slap, swing slap hitting front (it's possible & common), punches. Also, Korean had Sibak besides Subak as well as also having Gwonbeop even 100 years ago as proven by Mas Oyama's book "Karate for a million people". Subak had frontal slap cause Manchuria's Subak Dance & Korean Taekkyeon (both the Sibak Yetbub and also the regular Taekkyeon) & Subyuk have frontal slap. Big conspiracy to claim they all lied and made up frontal slap. There are also ancient Subak pictures which look like frontal slap to head or chest. Pictures are acceptable proof commonly accepted in history. Therefore, Subak had punch and frontal slap.

    Subak - Wikipedia Comb picture.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
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  5. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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  6. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Claiming something to be illogical? Korean had Breaking Game including Hand Breaking independent of Karate. Korean Breaking had nothing to do with Karate. There are many historical records which I showed already. Korean Breaking Game was from power circus, not from fighting martial arts. Also, Korean had many fighting martial arts that hit front powerfully with Yong (stacking speed, power) & shoulder rotation. (With frontal slap & punch.)

    I updated my contents. Now, I say Karate had Breaking irrelevant of Korea. I'm also saying that Korean had Breaking Game including Hand Breaking irrelevant of Karate.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Pointing out that YOU are illogical. And your theories are ridiculous.
    Modern Korean arts are, without exception, derived from Japanese roots.
    Get over it.
     
  8. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    "Modern Korean arts are, without exception, derived from Japanese roots." False. There are many traditional Korean martial arts which have historical records testifying for the authenticity of the techniques as well as their powerfulness. Korean had powerful Hand Breaking & many powerful martial arts without having anything to do with Japan. That includes Yong stacking speed & power in motion as well as shoulder rotation for powerful hand strike. There are historical records proving powerfulness, breaking big stones, technical details (proven details). I showed old historical records proving all such.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ssaum_by_(most_likely)_Gisan_Joongeun_Kim.png

    Korean had many Fighting martial arts including Sibak, Taekkyeon, Subak, Gyuksul, Nalparam which are not derived from Japanese roots; they don't have Japanese roots. Korean Breaking including Hand Breaking existed without having anything to do with Japan. There are many historical records proving such including Masato Tamura's testimony of Kiaijutsu Breaking existing. Korean had many powerful martial arts hitting with any body part including punching. Also, Korea's Breaking Game was from power circus regardless of how it was for Japan & China. Also, there are historical records proving these existences including technical details.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
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  9. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Geezuz krist, are you still going on and on?
     
  10. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Yeah, I am trying to connect to objective people & historians. But I upgraded my contents. Now Japanese Karate has Breaking irrelevant of Korea. But the same goes for both ways. Korean also always has had powerful Breaking including Hand Breaking completely irrelevant of Karate's Breaking. Also, Korean has had powerful martial arts hitting with any body part (including punching and kicking, both) such as Sibak, Nalparam, Gyuksul. Also, Subak had straight slap & punch no matter what someone else says. Subak connected to Gyuksul, which started from Subak & was mixed with Gwonbeop (or Sibak). There are many historical records on all these things. Subak had straight slap & punch. Also, Korean had other powerful martial arts like Sibak (Taekkyeon Yetbub, Nalparam). These all survived to today's world. These have been documented historically.
     
  11. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    You are not objective. Objective people do not use phrases like "no matter what someone else says". They also do not discriminate on the grounds of race.

    As for historians, I can tell from your posts that you started University, but never finished it. So, you're not a historian either.

    You want validation so badly for your flawed conclusions, that you are completely blind to your own lack of objectivity and lack of knowledge of scientific and historical research methods. You might think you talk a good fight, but it's totally clear that you're a Uni drop out with a complex about it, overcompensating for it.

    You need banned.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
     
  12. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    No historians nor objective people ever come to this site.

    Good luck elsewhere.
     
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  13. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    I heard they have them on Reddit. I heard that's where all the PhD Martial Arts Historians hang out. And 4chan, obvs.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
     
  14. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    He should go there. Definitely.

    He is just wasting his time here.
     
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  15. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    He’s been spamming the Reddit karate, TKD, and martial arts forums as well.

    Reception there has not been warm.
     
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  16. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Shocking.
     
  17. VPT

    VPT Green Belt

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    Claims can be rebuked by providing credible counter-evidence. I just came across one such evidence. It's an Okinawan document called Satsuyū Kikō rom the year 1801. Now that's old, isn't it? Mas Oyama wasn't even born in that century!

    So what does Satsuyū Kikō have to say in terms of tameshiwari? It says this:

    "The Kenjutsu and Yawara (Jūjutsu) of Ryūkyū are a lukewarm affair. They are only said to be skillful in thrusting with the hand. This method is to break through or kill anything with the clenched fist. It is referred to as 'Tetsukumi'."

    "Summoned to the magistracy of the Satsuma resident commissioner stationed in Naha, a person who performed the above mentioned 'art of Tetsukumi' struck a pile of seven roof tiles and crushed up to six of these roof tiles with his strike. If thrusting the face of a person or the like, it would smash it. A skillful person thrusts with the stretched out fingers."

    Here's a link to where I found this example: 『Tī: Did it actually exist? [rhetorical question]』

    Now that there is evidence that exhibitions of breaking things existed on Okinawa at least back in early 19th century, for Steven's argument ("That there was no Tameshiwari in karate before Mas Oyama introduced it") to hold, he needs to 1) modify his hypothesis to explain a possible transmission of breaking techniques from Korea to Okinawa, 2) account for a possible Chinese transmission of breaking techniques to Okinawa (because China has closer historical ties to Okinawa and Chinese martial arts have really rich histories in Iron Palm techniques), 3) establish a solid counterargument to why this document cannot be accounted for, or 4) stick to examining the social history of Korean martial arts and keep his hands out of Karate.

    Personally, I just think that Steven's whole ordeal has begun and progressed from an entirely wrong source. If he wanted to examine the history of Tameshiwari in Karate, the most reasonable place would be to start with Japanese and Okinawan documents instead of Korean ones. Establishing a research project on non-relevant documents and discarding the more relevant ones is a very serious case of bias and an example of tainted research ethics.

    Also, Steven should try punching a Makiwara (an Okinawan training implement for improving punching technique) and then make his broad statements about the shoulder turn. Makiwara training is really just all about pushing with the shoulder because of how that kind of punching post works.
     
  18. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Trust me, he’ll come up with something even stupider than he has. Don’t underestimate him.
     
  19. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don't think he actually does any martial arts.
     
  20. VPT

    VPT Green Belt

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    I've noticed that he's also littered the Tameshiwari page on Wikipedia with a smattering of his original research, which clearly goes against the guidelines of the website:

    "Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. [...] To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented."

    Wikipedia:No original research - Wikipedia
     

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