DF: Chinese arts and grappling?

Discussion in 'CMA From Around the Web' started by Clark Kent, Jun 13, 2010.

  1. Clark Kent

    Clark Kent <B>News Bot</B>

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    Chinese arts and grappling?
    By Laura - 06-13-2010 07:21 PM
    Originally Posted at: Deluxe Forums

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    Are there any Chinese fighting arts that are on par with Judo and BJJ?


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  2. yang style

    yang style White Belt

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    depends what you mean by on par. Judo and bjj are sports arts. They do not teach you how to defend against getting punched, and have rules such as no throwing someone face first, grabbing the face, specific spine manipulations, leg wrapping in certain ways, eye gouge, etc.

    There are a few arts that specialize on ground fighting, but also use strikes as well joint locks.

    chinese arts do not believe in getting tangled in positions that restrict what you can do without being able to free yourself. At the same time, nearly all chinese arts have chin na in them, which are certain joint manipulations, as well as a few throws.

    shuai chiao specializes in slamming people, but also being able to throw quickly while someone throws a punch and kick towards you.

    If you want something that complements judo or bjj, I would just give you this general rule:
    Nothing as a pure art is better than judo at judo, just like nothings better than boxing at boxing.
    at the same time, it doesnt mean you can't take something from cma and apply it to a grappling art. I find stance training really helpful. I've had people try double and single legs on me while sparring and i just use a bow and arrow stance, 90% of the time they can't move me even when they are bigger and stronger.
    You can use a lot of the chin na joint locks, and throws in various chinese arts in judo and bjj. bjj's stand up grappling in general is pretty weak, and I can see a good cma stylist going in and just throwing him around(seen it in practice).
    sensitivity is also a really big thing to grappling, and if you practice push hands or search hands, you learn to feel how your opponent moves. I would actually say it's easier to apply certain things on the ground because your opponent has really restricted movement.

    grappling is not really realistic for fighting imo. a lot of the times, people ask me if I want to grapple a bit, and instead of doing something like taking someone's back, i feel like it's a lot easier and more effective to just stand up and kick them in the face, or jump on them. It's a good sport if you like it though, and if you want to train for free fighting, it's probably good to at least know how your opponents fight.
     
  3. Tanaka

    Tanaka Purple Belt

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    Most arts of military or war include grappling. So I disagree with you saying grappling is not realistic way of fighting. Taking someones back is extremely effective. If you're behind someone and controlling them from being able to have you in front of them. They have a difficult time trying to defend themselves. If you release them so you can stand up and kick them. You leave room for someone to be able to regain a defensive posture or counter you, because there is nothing really to keep them there. Now if you are taking someones back while standing up. That is even better, because now you're in control and you're able to be mobile in case there are other attackers.

    Anyways I'm off topic, just had to throw that in there.
     
  4. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    To answer the original question: Depends how you want to compare.

    Judo & BJJ have throws and joint locks,chokes and newaza or pinning techniques.

    Chinese martial arts have throws and jointlocks and chokes but the ground control
    of newaza I think is not there.

    There are arts that do fight on the ground Guoquan being one of the more famous but
    it is not in the context of pulling guard and looking for submissions at least from what I have seen.

    That is not to say at least, that no one in Chinese history ever pulled guard in a fight but
    no style from little I know has a subcatagory or a speciality in submission type holds.

    Shuai Jiao is wrestling and many arts have throwing techniques.Again the emphasis is not on the submission hold but on the throw or joint lock.
     
  5. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

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    Shu&#257;iji&#257;o and to a lesser or greater extent, depending on your POV, Sanshou
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010
  6. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    My take on ground fighting within TCMA is something once told to me. In context of finishing a fight, it was <paraphrased> "I'm going to hit you with the biggest thing I can find, being the ground, and then encourage you to not get up".

    On the battlefield, if you went down, generally you died. In street altercation, if you go down, you still might. So as best as I can, I try to avoid the ground except as the strike you can't avoid.

    In a sporting context... I've got nothing since I don't approach it that way.
     
  7. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

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    That is exactly where Shu&#257;iji&#257;o comes from and that is exactly the view of the version of Sanda I trained.
     
  8. mograph

    mograph Master Black Belt

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    It depends on the fighter's goal, right?

    a) to win the point, round or match (sport)
    b) to escape and survive (self-defence)
    c) to extricate another from harm (self-defence, sort of)
    d) to injure/kill the opponent (war, criminal intent)
    e) to humiliate the opponent (streetfight, dude)
    f) to subdue the opponent until assistance arrives (law enforcement)

    So. In case a) the use of grappling is obvious in the applicable sports.

    However, I'd imagine that in the case of b) and c), the fighter would not want to engage in a ground fight, or allow it to continue. In those cases, the fighter would want to extricate himself/herself (or the third party) from the opponent and escape. Therefore, I'd imagine that only the skills required to escape holds (or immobilize one arm to strike then escape) would be useful, no? In other words, I'd imagine that for cases b) and c), the strategy is "repellent": separation and escape are the goals. So why engage, why embrace the opponent and go for a submission?

    In case d), I can see where engagement might be necessary. Your goal is to inflict damage on the opponent. The effect on the opponent is key, not your escape.

    Being middle-aged and sober, I won't venture into case e) as I have no desire to prove myself "on the street".

    I can see where grappling skills would be important for case f). The goal, as in d), is to have an effect on the opponent, but in this case it would be immobilization.

    So if one were to, er, grapple with the topic of ground fighting, it would help to know the fighter's goal, no?
     
  9. yang style

    yang style White Belt

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    I don't think that most millitary arts i've seen are the best way to go.

    sorry but if i stand i'll be more mobile no matter how you look at it, and usually finish the fight easier. I can still hold him down and i guarantee i'll be up faster if they are turtling while i'm on top.
    just go watch early sakuraba vs silva fights for an example. You'll tell me that he'll maneuver against another human easily if he stayed on the ground and tried to choke him? They just banned that from MMA right now because of grappling influences.
    If i want to go behind him and do something i can still do it with a similar strategy.
     
  10. Devlin76

    Devlin76 Yellow Belt

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    Like others have said, the closet TCMA to Judo would be Shou Jiao. Based on my limited exposure to Shou Jiao, the emphasis is definitely on throwing someone so fast and hard that they do not get back up. If they get back up you throw them again. Judo is split fairly equally between the throwing and the pins/submissions. BJJ puts the greatest emphasis on ground grappling, but that is perhaps over done thanks to modern MMA. TCMA arts like Taijiquan use plenty of standup grappling and throws, but not the ground gappling. Modern MMA competition does not allow stomping a downed opponent which in my limited experience is the standard follow up to a throw in TCMA :)
     
  11. Tanaka

    Tanaka Purple Belt

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    Surge and Art of War do.
    And Ground Fighting was very popular in Japan pre-WWII
     
  12. Neijia

    Neijia Yellow Belt

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    Why would anyone want to be on par with BJJ unless they were doing a sport that was developed to favor bjj? Kano JJ is battlefield and it is basic qin na and shuai jiao. Actually some things are missing. As for ground control most Taoist temple systems have really low stances, mobility and ground control. You can lock and break someone as you step while swinging a weapon above. That is a warrior art.
     
  13. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    It would be terrible to be taken to the ground against an experience grappler. BJJ comes from Judo with its emphasis on Ne-waza. BJJ can be taliored to be very street effective.

    What do you mean by Kano JJ is battlefield? do you mean it is a battle field, battlefield tested? Kano jujutsu which is Judo, came after the Meji restoration era so his Judo was not tested on the battle field by Samurai. It is not basically Qin na and Shuai Jiao

    If you read Liang Shou Yu book on Shou Kuai Jiao he explains why Shuai Jiao and Judo are different. Judo developed under its own methods and is distinct from Shuai Jiao however like all striking arts grappling arts do have some similarities since there are so many methods to apply techniques but the emphasis differs, Someone who does Shuai Jiao does not have the submission as found as Judo, at least not to my knowledge.

    Which Daoist temple systems and which temple are you refering to? Chen Bing has a video up on Youtube and he has good control on someone trying to take him down but
    IMO you should still have some familarity with the ground and how to at least roll and get back to your feet rather than putting all your eggs in a basket with Ma Bu
     

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