Democracy or Freedom?

[SFC JeffJ]

First off, I really don't want to see this turn into another we should/shouldn't be in Iraq argument.

I've been hearing on the news a lot about how both Iraq and Afghanistan have started not exactly rolling back the rights of women, but are letting the various tribes and communities dictate what is allowed. Such as abortion, property ownership, the ability for a woman to file for divorce, and such. Also, the lack religious freedom, especially in Afghanistan is disconcerting.

Why are we allowing this? When the "constitutions" of these new governments can be changed at the drop of a hat, doesn't it just become mob rule? Don't we want them to protect the rights of religious minorities and women?

Just something that's been kicking around in the back of my head,

Jeff

 

[OUMoose]

Why are we allowing this? Probably because it's not "our" country. The fact we butt our noses in where it's not required nor belongs is totally irrelevant.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Historically speaking there has never been a democracy in the Middle East areas of the middle east have in general been under control of whoever was the strongest and based on the Muslim religion.

The belief that one will actually work at all little alone so quickly is fairly far fetched.

You cannot change thousands of years of history in a couple of years.

 

[Fu_Bag]

I think that one thing that would have to be taken into consideration is whether or not the areas you mentioned became democracies or just relaxed theocracies. It'd take a lot more than military strength to change deeply ingrained belief systems. Personally, I don't think we ever had the power to allow, or disallow, behaviors of any kind in those areas. The only thing we can do is to help create an environment where they are free to decide how they'll behave, and believe, in the future.

Democracy and Freedom aren't the same. Mob rule is maintained by some type of force, or threat of force. Freedom comes from something entirely different. These are just my personal opinions. I respect that others may disagree.


Fu Bag

 

[michaeledward]

I'm surprised you have not heard about women's rights being rolled back in Afghanistan and Iraq, because they certainly are being rolled back.

Iraq was one of the most modern, liberated countries in the middle east under the first decade of Saddam Hussein's rule. Women were highly educated and participated widely in society.

There have been three elections in Iraq over the past 24 months. The results from these elections are to put a Shi'ite religious faction in control of the country. Shia belief structures are much more structured concerning what women can and can not do, than what existed before the Kuwait war.

An election is no guarantee of modernization of a society. The phrase I have heard is "One Vote, One Time".

 

[Ninjamom]

Thank you for recognizing that there is a difference between 'democracy' and 'freedom'!

The freedoms we enjoy in the West can exist largely because we have a shared sense of value for what those freedoms are, and we have written them into a national agreement. This agreement (constitution) serves largely as our 'national covenant' of rights that even a majority vote cannot remove. In the middle east and northern Africa, where a different culture and religion drive what the shared values are, the constitutions that arise will tend towards the largely shared values of Sharia law, which are antithetical to individual liberty.

I will have to find some links. There have been some great articles written lately about the need for a 'Reformation' in the Islamic world to allow diversity of thought and views within the context of Islam. Such a Reformation might give more value to individual liberty and allow the development of a constituion apart from Sharia.

 

[Phoenix44]

I would suggest you read the book "No God But God" by Reza Aslan. It's about the origins, present, and future of Islam. It's a great read, and you'll learn a lot. I did.

 

[jazkiljok]

Historically speaking there has never been a democracy in the Middle East areas of the middle east have in general been under control of whoever was the strongest and based on the Muslim religion.

The belief that one will actually work at all little alone so quickly is fairly far fetched.

You cannot change thousands of years of history in a couple of years.

it's still the ultimate hypocrisy to me that we stand and fight for liberty and democracy in Iraq yet our most esteem allies in the mideast are monarchies who rule with the same authority as the dictators (former and current) in iraq, syria and libya. i have no idea what Egypt is-- their prez's seem to hold power until they drop dead or are killed. most of these countries adhere to islamic law and its oppressive attitude towards women (actually the nationalist dictorships in the mideast do/did better with women's rights-- odd as that seems to some.)

our state dept likes these fairly militarily weak monarchies cause they rely on US might to protect them in the region. and they sell us oil. Democracy like they have in Venezuela- where some anti-us leader can give us the finger after his election is not something anyone looks forward to.

i can't wait for Bush to have to praise the independence of some elected iraqi leader who decides to side with iran in political matters detrimental to US policy. i mean, what makes georgedoncondick think iraq won't elect some guy like Ahmadinejad? the guy we got now in charge won't even shake condi's hand cause, you know- she's a woman. and the last time i checked- iraqis still hate israel as much as the rest of them.